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Understanding Muslims

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Understanding Muslims

Old 23rd Oct 2014, 19:43
  #521 (permalink)  
Hardly Never Not Unwilling
 
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We always get with these stories, a widely broadcast statement from CAIR that they are concerned about backlash against innocent Muslims.

Tell you what. I've had enough of Islam. It's nothing but trouble. The protestations of innocence are hollow. Islam is a scourge on the West. It doesn't belong here. It is killing innocent people. It has worn out its welcome. Is that plain enough? The only innocent Muslims are those who emphatically declare their disgust with Jihadism and join the fight against them.

The West welcomed and supported Muslim immigrants in good faith. Islam has betrayed that generosity with violence, agitation, and insult. Now Europe is so infested it is at serious risk of falling to it unless it stands up. The US is not far behind.

I can have Islamic friends and associates, and do. But first, they have to show they are as appalled as I am.

Why aren't we tracing the associations of the murderers that pop up nearly every day back to the mosques where they congregated, and confiscate or destroy those mosques? Why aren't we infiltrating the rats nests that promulgate this crap? Why don't we make the Saudi Wahhabi proselytizers unwelcome here and throughout the civilized world?

We're at war whether we like it or not. We should at some point start to fight it seriously.
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Old 23rd Oct 2014, 20:06
  #522 (permalink)  
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BenThere - "Islam" is not a physical thing any more than Christianity is. It is nothing more than the sum of its parts, and when some of those parts go wrong then throwing out all the others is damned stupid.
But first, they have to show they are as appalled as I am.
What manner of display would satisfy you? Was that same level of display on show from Christians when Anders Breivik did his thing, or while the LRA does their thing, or while the IRA did their thing?
Why aren't we tracing the associations of the murderers that pop up nearly every day back to the mosques where they congregated, and confiscate or destroy those mosques? Why aren't we infiltrating the rats nests that promulgate this crap?
Apart from the "collective punishment" concept of confiscating or destroying mosques, what makes you think that we aren't doing just that? Where do you think the intelligence comes from when attacks are stopped before they even get a chance to begin?
Why don't we make the Saudi Wahhabi proselytizers unwelcome here and throughout the civilized world?
That would be "free speech", which is fairly fundamental to the civilised world.
We're at war whether we like it or not. We should at some point start to fight it seriously.
I agree. How about properly identifying the targets first?
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Old 23rd Oct 2014, 20:06
  #523 (permalink)  

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Indeed so BenThere

"The words of his mouth were smoother than butter, but war was in his heart: his words were softer than oil, yet were they drawn swords." Psalms 55:21

Not a happy business.

Mac

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Old 23rd Oct 2014, 20:11
  #524 (permalink)  
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What manner of display would satisfy you?
More American and UK Muslims trekking off to fight ISIS than fight for it would be a good start.
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Old 23rd Oct 2014, 20:23
  #525 (permalink)  
 
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Why would you require them to do that? Are you lacing up your boots and heading to Iraq/Syria/Turkey/Kurdistan?

Yeah, yeah, I know, you have already done your bit but your bit was not enough so hump your bluey* and get over there!

*Useful expression from the land of the Skippies!

Last edited by John Hill; 24th Oct 2014 at 08:17.
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Old 23rd Oct 2014, 20:31
  #526 (permalink)  
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I don't have the authority to require anything.

But it would warm my heart to see the supposed majority of 'moderate Muslims' lacing up their boots, and buying tickets to war against the Mujahideens.

I won't hold my breath.
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Old 23rd Oct 2014, 20:48
  #527 (permalink)  
 
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A fair amount of bits and bytes have been consumed by PTT to say, repeatedly, that "the actions of a tiny few do not speak for the vast majority of peaceful and tolerant Muslims."

But what is impressive is that he brings his explanation of Islam's peace loving nature to a Western bulletin board, where the discourse is fairly sane, and his chosen audience is Westerners.

I have often wondered why he hasn't taken his message to the radical Islamic bulletin boards, to convince the faithful there that they are sterotyping; that they are being intolerant; and that they do not speak for the Ummah.

After all, this is by far a war of Muslims against Muslims, with hundreds of thousands of fellow Muslims slaughtered by other Muslims in the name of their religion. The West is just a handy scapegoat, and frequent victim of Muslim barbarity, but Muslims kill far more of their fellow kind that the West.

Make no mistake, this is a Muslim war, and those closest to that community, those so knowledgable about how "real" Muslim's think, should take their bits and bytes to a more ... shall we say ... "difficult" audience to convince.
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Old 23rd Oct 2014, 21:28
  #528 (permalink)  
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BenThere
For the US:
Muslim Population in the Military Raises Difficult Issues - WSJ
There were 3,409 Muslims in the active-duty military as of April 2008, according to Pentagon statistics.

Military personnel don't have to disclose their religions, and many officials believe the actual number of Muslim soldiers may be at least 10,000 higher than the Pentagon statistics. For instance, the military "Officer Record Brief" of Maj. Nidal Malik Hasan, the suspect in the Fort Hood shootings, said he had "no religious preference" and didn't identify him as a Muslim.
Americans who joined ISIS now back in the US | New York Post
The National Counterterrorism Center estimates that about 100 Americans have tried to fight alongside ISIS in Iraq and Syria.
For the UK:
BBC News - UK's Muslim soldiers ?fighting extremists not Muslims'
With more than 600 Muslims in the British Armed Forces, do those that are deployed on the front line in Afghanistan have to reconcile their beliefs in order to fight hardline Islamic Taliban militants?

"My home is the UK. As a Muslim, that's the place I'd happily die for and kill for. That's the same way it's going to remain until my dying day.

"My entire soul belongs to the UK and I'm more than proud to fight for this country."
New Statesman | The hand-choppers of Isis are deluded: there is nothing Islamic about their caliphate
As many as 500 British Muslims are believed to have gone to fight for Isis, which is 500 too many but less than 0.02 per cent of the UK’s 2.7 million Muslims. A recent YouGov poll found that Muslims as a group are more patriotic Britons than Scots.
So it seems that there are, indeed, more Muslims from both our countries fighting against ISIS than for it, and as part of a legitimate fighting force, too. Happy now?

Matari
his explanation of Islam's peace loving nature
See, you're simply not reading what I am writing, and that's why you keep flailing at these strawmen. I'm not talking about the nature of Islam, I'm talking about the actions of the majority of Muslims. Those are two very different things. Matthew 7:16 suggests this is appropriate
By the way, I came to this bulletin board because I am a pilot. Seemed appropriate. If any other religion were being attacked in this manner I'd say the same for the innocent adherents of that religion too.
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Old 23rd Oct 2014, 21:39
  #529 (permalink)  

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"Why don't we make the Saudi Wahhabi proselytizers unwelcome here and throughout the civilized world?"

Indeed. We would also have done well to ban missionaries from China, Africa and India during the days of Empire.

The Christian missionaries were in part responsible for the Taiping Rebellion (20M dead), and in part responsible for the Indian Mutiny (10 million dead).

In India it was rather more radical.

"India's centuries-long resistance to Muslim aggression began in 636 C.E. This started a series of incursions in which Muslim warriors desecrated Hindu places of worship and universities, slaughtered monks and priests, and unleashed a reign of terror to impose Islam and subjugate the majority Hindu population. In K.S. Lal's 1973 book, Growth of Muslim Population of Medieval India (1000-1800), the author estimated that about 60-80 million people died in India between 1000 and 1525 as a result of Islamic invasions."

And so in India it continues.

Delightful....

Mac



Religion of peace my arse!




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Old 24th Oct 2014, 06:09
  #530 (permalink)  
 
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Matari .... no answer yet.
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Old 24th Oct 2014, 06:16
  #531 (permalink)  
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bosnich71 - that would be because I've rejected the assumptions the question is founded on. It's a strawman argument.
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Old 24th Oct 2014, 07:40
  #532 (permalink)  
 
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'Strawmanery', the weapon of choice of the Tag Team Trolls.
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Old 24th Oct 2014, 08:07
  #533 (permalink)  
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bosnich71 - that would be because I've rejected the assumptions the question is founded on. It's a strawman argument.
PTT - We have seen your verbosity stretching back over weeks, if not months of your posts. Had you got an answer you would have been all over the questioner, in your usual style, with yet more verbosity. The fact that you haven't taken this course suggests that you are now talking pure BS.

Is the term 'strawman' taking over from that other grossly over used and grossly wrongly used word, 'racist'? You know, the word that is fielded when the user has run out of/been defeated in an argument?
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Old 24th Oct 2014, 08:11
  #534 (permalink)  
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But what is impressive is that he brings his explanation of Islam's peace loving nature to a Western bulletin board, where the discourse is fairly sane, and his chosen audience is Westerners

About your understanding of the term...fairly sane.

It would appear you being just a shade selective here, given the number of posters whose views invariably display not even the slightest vestige of sanity....irrespective of the topic.

As for this site being for Westerners, alas, again you seem be under the illusion that only Westerners would view this site and JB.

You possibly haven't noticed how many posts seem to coincide with media articles, prior to the media source presenting them.

You were saying about your perception of the target audience ?
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Old 24th Oct 2014, 09:16
  #535 (permalink)  
 
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PTT ... point taken. Someone makes a suggestion and if it doesn't fit the narrative or whatever it's a 'strawman'.
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Old 24th Oct 2014, 09:32
  #536 (permalink)  
 
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.............and if two or more agree with this suggestion they are immediately characterized as "tag team trolls".
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Old 24th Oct 2014, 09:48
  #537 (permalink)  
 
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bosnich71, from Wiki
A straw man is a common type of argument and is an informal fallacy based on the misrepresentation of an opponent's argument. To be successful, a straw man argument requires that the audience be ignorant or uninformed of the original argument.

The so-called typical "attacking a straw man" argument creates the illusion of having completely refuted or defeated an opponent's proposition by covertly replacing it with a different proposition (i.e., "stand up a straw man") and then to refute or defeat that false argument ("knock down a straw man") instead of the original proposition.
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Old 24th Oct 2014, 12:46
  #538 (permalink)  
 
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The IS group are, based on some analysis, pulling in about $1 million per day of income. Some of that is in black market oil sales, some of it is ransom money, and some of it is DONATIONS from Muslims sympathetic to their cause. (I suspect that the amount is larger, but I wasn't on the team doing the analysis).

This makes sense, culturally. The PLO got donations for decades from places all over the Arab world ... and Yassir made sure to take his cut.

These donors to the IS goons will of course include some of these alleged "moderate Muslims" we hear about. They won't go and kill anyone, oh no, but they'll pass the hat now and again.

This reminds me of certain pubs on our Eastern seaboard where now and again a box/bucket was passed around "for the band."
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Old 24th Oct 2014, 13:02
  #539 (permalink)  
 
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I think, regrettably, that we have reached or are reaching a time in our history where the onus is on all Muslims to demonstrate to the rest of us that they are no threat to our lives or way of life if they wish to continue to reside with us in the "West". The "West" can manage quite well indeed without them and perhaps they would all be happier if they resided where they felt more comfortable, albeit, much poorer.


I have no idea how that could be done or whether there is any will to do so on their part.
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Old 24th Oct 2014, 13:24
  #540 (permalink)  
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parabellum - my "verbosity" as you call it is neither here nor there: this isn't twitter, I'm not limited to a number of characters, and I will continue to write in the manner which I see fit until I see fit to do otherwise. You don't have to read it.

The question posed by Matari is based on a false premise: that I am defending the nature of Islam. I am not, though: I am defending the actions of the majority of Muslims. As such his question requires no answer other than "I reject the premise of the question". It's a strawman because he has made up an argument which he has subsequently refuted. It has nothing to do with what I was saying, though.
It's a form of leading question. If I were to ask you "have you stopped beating your wife?" you'd (hopefully) be just as justified in rejecting the premise of the question as it is (hopefully) not something you do.

bosnich71 - no, if someone makes up an argument which I am not making then defeats it claiming that they have countered what I am saying then it is a strawman. That's what Matari did.

pvmw - not my term, chap. I've said nothing of the sort.

Basil - no, that's not a strawman at all. If you reject the answer then it's possibly an incorrect answer, but it isn't making up something which hasn't actually been said.
If the Wahhabi proselytizer calls for the death of those who do not follow Islam then he is not indulging in 'free speech'; he is committing a criminal offence.
I believe that is not the case in the UK unless it is directed at an individual: then it becomes a threat. Otherwise Voltaire (via Evelyn Beatrice Hall) applies.
See the difference? Your answer wasn't a strawman but it may well be incorrect

Lonewolf_50 - I don't doubt that some of them are. That's still a VERY long way from all of them.

meadowrun - perhaps the vast majority of Muslims could do it by not attacking people and living peaceful lives?
Oh, they already are...
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