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Catalan Independence Referendum

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Catalan Independence Referendum

Old 12th Nov 2017, 01:03
  #301 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by KelvinD View Post
He was elected as an MP in September 2015. What kind of "wasn't elected" is that?
If you can’t bother to do your own research, when it has been served on a plate for you, don’t come and spread BS about he was elected MP.

That was NOT his position now, he was a self proclaimed president dictator that wanted to rebel against the majority who don’t want independence.

He was not the elected president of his party, he was a replacement/ substitute.

Just because he was an MP does not mean he was the leader of his party.
He deserves prison for his treason, I know in UK many compares this to Brexit, that’s so BS, can’t be compared at all.

It’s like Yorkshire tomorrow should start arranging their own referendum for independence from the UK. Going against all laws of a nation that they have democratically agreed to follow.

People of Catalonia are not suffering or in urgent need of some regime change, I spent plenty of time there, these people are a joke, and it’s nationalism at its worst.

Most of the people arrested from this party are heavily involved in corruption too.
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Old 12th Nov 2017, 05:45
  #302 (permalink)  
 
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I did do my own research and came up with the following:
He was elected Mayor of Girona in 2011
He was elected as MP for Girona in September 2015
In January 2016, while still an elected MP, he was elected President of Catalonia as a result of an agreement between CUP & Together for Yes. A process that seems similar to Cameron appointing Clegg as Deputy PM.
The Spanish Constitutional Court declared the referendum to be illegal on 7 September 2017.
The part played by the Catalan High Court was to order the provincial police to prevent the referendum. An order which they disobeyed.
So don't be accusing me of spreading BS!
As for the comments on possible corruption; it is Spain. We expect it.
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Old 12th Nov 2017, 06:47
  #303 (permalink)  
 
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In regard of all this I wonder if the Declaration of Independence of US was legal from the viewpoint of Great Britain law at the given time.

There were times when divorce was prohibited by law in any country and no matter how much anybody wanted to escape the existing rules were in favor of those who wanted to keep the marriage in place (Agatha Christie explained once that great number of murders occurred in the past just because of this).

So we don't even know if majority of Catalans want to secede as it is not allowed to vote. So if a spouse would like to leave also the mother in law has the right to ban this intention... In a nutshell this is the situation with Spanish constitution.

I will follow the next election with great curiosity as it will replace the flawed/forbidden referendum.

To make my position clear - I don't really favor any side in this struggle but I respect the principle that even nations have right for self determination and I consider disgusting if such right is suppressed and a referendum is not even allowed.
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Old 12th Nov 2017, 08:59
  #304 (permalink)  
 
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Catalonia is not a nation.

What next? London declare independence? As they want to be part of the EU?


What will the liberals say than?

Imagine Sadiq Khan sets up a referendum of independence on his own accord, the UK government will say it’s illegal, should we than be forced to obey to a “banana referendum “ that some insane leader/nationalist has forced upon the people?

If it’s an illegal referendum, why would anybody opposing legitimise it by going to vote?

Has the world gone completely mad?
Are we now accepting any flawed election/referendum without objective control and rules?

This case is that simple, there are rules and laws to follow, clearly these have not been followed in this situation.
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Old 12th Nov 2017, 11:10
  #305 (permalink)  
 
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Catalonia is not a nation. But what about Catalonians?

Do they have a distinct language? Do they feel like a nation?

If yes, the more they are deprived of their perceived identity the more tendency to leave existing centralised state will follow. Here is a lesson from history:

Austro-Hungarian empire was originally based on Habsburg leadership but in fact it was a multinational state. Beside Austrians and Hungarians there were also Czechs, Slovaks, Serbs, Croats to name a few. After 1867 there was a push to suppress Slovak nationality, language and identity (main reason was that during 1848 civil war Slovaks fought against Hungarians on the side of Habsburgs). Instead of federalisation where all nations should have their own share the suppression resulted in 1918 by founding Czechoslovakia on 28th October. Czech and Slovak representation agreed on it already during the Great war in so called Pittsburgh accords (country was supposed to be named Czecho-Slovak republic) and due various reasons it became unitary state with central government in Prague. After some time Slovak nationality was "neglected" again and doctrine of "Czechoslovak" nation was introduced which reminded painfully the times when Hungarian rulers used to tell "you are not a nation, you are just Hungarians who forgot their native tongue" (sic!). After various twists in history Czechoslovakia became federal state in 1969. After fall of communist regime in 1989 the change of the name "Czechoslovak socialist republic" was due. At that moment Slovaks demanded the omitted dash in the name (Czecho-Slovak). Endless quarrels followed and after some time it became clear that Czechoslovakia has an ambition to become EU member. At that moment Slovak politicians declared that Slovakia wants "own star on the EU flag" which meant unwillingness to be represented in Brussels via central government. From January the 1st 1993 there are independent states and Slovakia became EU member in May 2004.

What lesson should be learned from this? The less respect is given from central government to the group which feels to be a nation the less allegiance will receive in return. It is actually very simple.

So you say Catalonians are NOT a nation? Congratulations!

Neglecting identity and lack of respect will lead with certainty to secession attempts. Not understanding history inevitably leads to repetition. If Spanish government wants to be sure that Catalonia will establish independent republic they just should deprive them from autonomy, forbid referenda, lock opposition into jail and declare that will of people is "against constitution".
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Old 12th Nov 2017, 13:21
  #306 (permalink)  
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In regard of all this I wonder if the Declaration of Independence of US was legal from the viewpoint of Great Britain law at the given time.
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Old 12th Nov 2017, 14:25
  #307 (permalink)  
 
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"Pali" I am not sure what kind of democratic values you are used to, I guess not the highest standards, as being ruled by East iron fist in the past, this is understandable.

However there is a democratic process for all, and a MINORITY of Catalonia people have disregarded all of this, as they are nothing but nationalistic opportunists, who have attempted to make a coupe.

The majority of people did not go and vote in the referendum, because it was declared illegal and void, even before it started. So how can you legitimise something organised by a regime of thugs and traitors.

These separatists are NOT the angels of democracy that many are trying to paint them to be.

They voted 90% to follow the Spanish constitution, in the 70's, now they want to disobey their own countries laws with civil unrest and disregard for their own countries law, shame on them.

Let's not forget Yugoslavia, was it worth it? The thousands of people who died for getting their independence? Friends and neighbours becoming enemies, was it worth it?

Catalonia is really showing the worst of human nature, self destruction to appease Nationalism.

The Catalonia's that have been sent to prison, are there because they are criminals, corruption and misuse of public funds, to press forward their own agenda, and they will have their day in court to defend their actions, as should be in a fair civilised country.
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Old 12th Nov 2017, 14:32
  #308 (permalink)  
 
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A country is only a country if other countries recognise that country as a country.

As an absolute minimum, for Catalonia to be regarded as a country it would need the recognition of both France and Spain.

That is not going to happen in the foreseeable future, so all talk of Catalonia being a country is just deluded bullshit.

Any notion of the province being an "independent" country is just silly.
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Old 12th Nov 2017, 15:27
  #309 (permalink)  
 
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@BAD: Why ad hominem so soon in the discussion?

Compare the Spanish and UK approach. British government had enough guts to let people in Scotland vote and didn't need to ask the rest if they agree too or needed to put N. Sturgeon into jail.

Yes, I lived many years in a totalitarian state and watched with envy the western democracy. And yes, in our country we had laws which imposed heavy prison fines for anyone who would dare to oppose communist regime (Law for protection of people's democratic republic which was basically import from Soviet Union). I studied and admired mostly Anglo-Saxon laws and tradition. And to be honest, I didn't admired Franco...

When "Velvet revolution" came I was university student. I went out to protests at many freezing nights, government and state media called us "agents of imperialist forces" and "deluded youth", you can bet that it was completely illegal to oppose communist hegemony. I spoke on events in small cities which were uninformed and cut off due censorship in the media. Yes, I am typical undemocratic element who stood there, my father who witnessed the horrible stalinist times was completely horrified and begged me to stay at home. Maybe the first night after beating students on 17th November 1989 when we went to the streets they could still crush us. We were there maybe three hundred people. Next day there were thousand and later thousands came. We were there facing the threat of being beaten and jailed but we knew that we better die but we don't move a step back. And then we won without any bloodshed, the day when communists stepped down is the best memory of my life.

Yes, I was always defiant undemocratic and confused individual.

I don't even say that I support secession of Catalonia, but I doubt about motives of central government in blocking referenda and trying to silence political opponents with heavy threats. This is not a democracy in its best form.
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Old 12th Nov 2017, 18:37
  #310 (permalink)  
 
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"Pali" - What happen in East Europe, I can understand, however you can not lay the same emotion to compare to what is going on in Catalonia.

The Scotland issue was put to bed once and for all, until of course the Brexit vote. If they let the whole UK vote on Scotland, they probably would have had their independence, it's only in Scotland the majority wants to stay attached to the rest of the UK.

Why does the Spanish not want to entertain a referendum you ask, which probably ones and for all would put these nationalists to bed once and for all, however you still need to deal with the irregularities which these politicians have created and done first. As these have breached the Spanish constitution which the people of Catalonia voted with a majority of 90% to follow in the 70's. That was not a small majority, and the fact that during this last referendum the majority of the voters that came was the ones voting for independence, 60% of the voters did not go out and vote, because it was illegal. They were most likely the silent majority, still it was breach of the Spanish laws for this referendum which all the people and politicians have agreed to follow.

I know many people in the area and from the area, and NONE of them want independence, except if you are a fanatic nationalist, and have such fanatic views.
This "Banana Referendum" they had in Catalonia was very flawed, accusations of voter fraud, no independent oversight just to mention a few issues, sure the Spanish police was to heavy handed in some of their actions.

On the 21.st of December the people will be allowed to give their vote legally, and this will be the moment of reckoning, but you can't go and invent your own laws just as you wish, or proclaim your own nation, just based on your own opinions without the legal requirements being met.

Comparing what happen in Slovakia and in Catalonia is very wrong, the communist regime that governed most of East Europe from Kremlin, was not in the same sphere as these snow flakes in Catalonia, I doubt many of the Catalonian people have suffered such hardships as was going on in East Europe.
In East Europe, you get sent to prison, with little or no legal procedures, some got sent to Siberia, never to see their families again. I am not sure what Catalonians peoples hardships are, but I guess it would be a bit of a joke to say Catalonian people are suffering badly where they live, that's what me and many find disgraceful. This is not about a people that is being treated badly by their country, as Spain is still their country, they just don't want to be a part of Spain. However the majority does want to be a part of Spain, but they now saw an opportunity to legitimise their actions, and try to steal the land, that's what traitors do. This is not a fight about freedom and virtue, they have it all, they just don't respect the laws of the land that governs them.

Allowing a referendum would open up a can of worms, you have the Basques, you have the Canary Islands, who would all want their own independence, small minorities in all these areas would than also demand their own referendum.
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Old 21st Dec 2017, 05:07
  #311 (permalink)  
 
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So what are the odds today?

Seems like another referendum is taking place now as the independence is the main topic of the elections. The worst outcome would be sort of 50/50 result. The country would be much better off if one of the sides would win at least 60 to 40 or even with greater difference. But I am afraid it won't happen.
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Old 22nd Dec 2017, 06:34
  #312 (permalink)  
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Catalan separatists claim historic election triumph

Catalan separatists emerged victorious from regional elections last night in a result that sent shock waves across Spain and dealt a devastating blow to Mariano Rajoy, the prime minister.

With more than 96 per cent of votes counted, separatist parties were heading for an absolute majority. The results confounded predictions of a hung parliament and were calamitous for Mr Rajoy, who ordered the elections after Catalonia tried to declare independence in October. Mr Rajoy’s centre-right People’s Party had its tally of seats cut from 11 in 2015 to three. Mr Rajoy had banked on the election securing a return to “legality and normality”, but now faces the challenge of having to deal with separatists returning to power in Barcelona........

Citizens, the centre-right unionist party, came top, with 25 per cent of the vote, which translated to 37 seats. The leading separatist party was Carles Puigdemont’s Together for Catalonia, with 34 seats. Many parties on both sides of the divide said that they would be open to building coalitions. A senior source in Together for Catalonia said: “We are confident we could find ways to work out our differences. We share the common goal, after all, of independence.”

Mr Puigdemont, who was the Catalan leader before being ousted by Madrid, said: “I want to thank the people of Catalonia. The Catalan republic has beaten the monarchy of direct rule.” He is in self-imposed exile in Belgium because he claims that he cannot expect justice in Spain. He said that Mr Rajoy and his allies had been “beaten”, adding: “The prescription that Mr Rajoy thought would work has failed. Now we need to restore democracy, restore our legitimate government, our freedoms. We need to free all those people who are still in prison, but should not be.” Oriol Junqueras, the leader of Catalan Republican Left (ERC), which won 32 seats, is in prison facing rebellion and sedition charges......

The results raise the possibility that Mr Puigdemont is voted back into office but is unable to take up his post. Eduard Pujol, a politician in Mr Puigdemont’s party, declared that Madrid’s control of Catalonia was now “dead and buried. The polls have buried it”.......

Long queues formed at polling stations throughout the day yesterday, with turnout at a record level of 80 per cent. About 17,000 police officers were stationed outside polling stations to signs of political support, such as yellow ribbons for separatists. At the Ramon Llull school in Barcelona, which was raided by riot police during the October referendum, the mood was subdued as people voted. Marí Carmen Marcet, 69, a retired banker, arrived in a yellow scarf to show sympathy for the former ministers who are being held in prison. “I was here that day in October. I wasn’t hurt but I saw the violence clearly. I don’t want to be a part of a country which does that to its own citizens. I voted for independence,” she said.......
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Old 22nd Dec 2017, 07:00
  #313 (permalink)  
 
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I had a feeling that this would happen. I'm not sure it's wholly representative, but have a suspicion that a fair number of Catalans felt that the way Spain had pretty brutally intervened over the recent independence referendum result was intolerable. I've no doubt that a fair number of those who voted for one of the separatist parties did so as a protest against the behaviour of the Spanish government, as much as anything else.

It seems a bad time to have chosen to hold this regional election, when emotions were still running so high after the referendum intervention, not an astute move by the Spanish government, perhaps they should have waited a few months for things to settle down a bit.
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Old 22nd Dec 2017, 07:06
  #314 (permalink)  
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If they coulda then they shoulda and they woulda. But they couldn’t so they didn’t - now they’re done.

https://www.politico.eu/article/5-ta...alan-election/

Last edited by ORAC; 22nd Dec 2017 at 07:18.
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Old 22nd Dec 2017, 07:12
  #315 (permalink)  
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Old 22nd Dec 2017, 07:34
  #316 (permalink)  
 
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Spain possibly heading towards being a 'Balkans light'? Which other regions might start sticking their oars back in?

(Spain imposing direct rule on regions, Poland having its wrists slapped about some or other democracy thing, Hungary likely to veto any such slap on the wrist, one of the wealthiest members leaving the group. Is some allegedly 'unifying' institution in a touch of trouble?)
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Old 22nd Dec 2017, 07:44
  #317 (permalink)  
 
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I think Sr. Rajoy has painted himself into a political corner here. The one thing the election result says is he doesn't really have a grip on what is going on and sacking the provincial government was not a clever move. Now things could get interesting!
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Old 22nd Dec 2017, 07:50
  #318 (permalink)  
 
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Trossie: Spot on! You forgot to mention though a couple of other minor issues such as the inability of the German government to, well...., form a government more than 3 months after the polls; Austria getting a neo-Nazi party in power, Belgium having issues with the Walloons etc.
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Old 22nd Dec 2017, 07:58
  #319 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Trossie View Post
Spain possibly heading towards being a 'Balkans light'? Which other regions might start sticking their oars back in?

(Spain imposing direct rule on regions, Poland having its wrists slapped about some or other democracy thing, Hungary likely to veto any such slap on the wrist, one of the wealthiest members leaving the group. Is some allegedly 'unifying' institution in a touch of trouble?)
On the contrary. It's one in the eye for those who want or believe the EU to be a 'superstate'. Democracy is alive and well in each member country.
Long may it continue.
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Old 22nd Dec 2017, 08:40
  #320 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sallyann1234 View Post
On the contrary. It's one in the eye for those who want or believe the EU to be a 'superstate'. Democracy is alive and well in each member country.
Except it’s not.

EU are taking legal action against Hungary, Poland and Czech Republic for not accepting EU imposed refugee quotas. Also taking ‘disciplinary measures’ against Poland because of their judicial reforms.

So yes, there is democracy at a national level. And the EU are riding roughshod over it……..
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