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Scottish independence Hamsterwheel.

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Scottish independence Hamsterwheel.

Old 13th Mar 2017, 22:40
  #11781 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: liverpool uk
Age: 63
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As it stands in my view, if Sturgeon gets her referendum and wins, she leads Scotland with no money from the Barnett formula becomes a third world basket case economy, No membership of the eu and no money from them, No prospect of EU membership as Spain and France will veto on the grounds they have their own secessionist movements and they will be net takers not givers into the system. 80% of its exports gone unless a trade deal is agreed. Hard border and immigration controls. If she loses, political wilderness.

Ahh popcorn time.
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Old 13th Mar 2017, 22:44
  #11782 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by d88 View Post
You should have stopped at the Daily Mail part.

NATO membership , ehh let me see , Scotland is one of the most strategically placed countries on NATO's northern flanks and one of the major routes for Russian Subs entering the North Atlantic. Scotland would not be denied membership, NATO would be begging Scotland to join.

EU - Scotland has already been told it would receive favoured status in it's quest for membertship, the ah hem Daily mail reporting is so far behind the times it's nearly back to when it was supporting facists in Europe.
So Scotland would be happy to apply for membership to a nuclear equipped NATO?
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Old 13th Mar 2017, 23:26
  #11784 (permalink)  
 
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Wingswinger, you may be picking the wrong nation to play hardball with.

Have a hard border, if you lot build a wall, then we don't need to. It's like Sturgeon saying, we're going to have a wall, and we're going to make the English pay for it.

No Barnet formula money for us means;

no oil revenue for you.
no whisky revenue for you.
no mil bases north of the wall.
no say who else does get to operate mil base north of the wall.
no Faslane
no Coulport
no Rosyth

We of course don't need as much money, as we would no longer need to fund the nukes or expeditionary warfare. The combined threats of economic migration and terrorism are more of an issue for the English than for us up here.

As a nation, we have some variable form in dealing with invaders. We were sold out 300 years ago by our own people, but much more recently, a Scotsman got a civic award for kicking a man who was on the ground, on fire.

You lot carry on allowing hate preachers to arrange marches in Hyde Park, we will carry on being an unattractive option for them to conquer.

We have a rich seam of natural resources, one of the most valuable is Land. Ask any estate agent and they will tell you two important things about land, they don't make it any more (and we have shitloads of it) & Location is everything.

You can flounce off and take your Barnet money, the potential rental income from Lossie is huge.

If the Americans don't want it, perhaps the Russians might.

I doubt that there are many Scots who really think it will all be sunshine and roses if we go it alone, especially with the industrially deluded SNP at the helm. However, sticking with the UK is not a recipe for calm waters either.
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Old 13th Mar 2017, 23:32
  #11785 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: liverpool uk
Age: 63
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Wingswinger, you may be picking the wrong nation to play hardball with.

Have a hard border, if you lot build a wall, then we don't need to. It's like Sturgeon saying, we're going to have a wall, and we're going to make the English pay for it.

No Barnet formula money for us means;

no oil revenue for you.
no whisky revenue for you.
no mil bases north of the wall.
no say who else does get to operate mil base north of the wall.
no Faslane
no Coulport
no Rosyth

We of course don't need as much money, as we would no longer need to fund the nukes or expeditionary warfare. The combined threats of economic migration and terrorism are more of an issue for the English than for us up here.

As a nation, we have some variable form in dealing with invaders. We were sold out 300 years ago by our own people, but much more recently, a Scotsman got a civic award for kicking a man who was on the ground, on fire.

You lot carry on allowing hate preachers to arrange marches in Hyde Park, we will carry on being an unattractive option for them to conquer.

We have a rich seam of natural resources, one of the most valuable is Land. Ask any estate agent and they will tell you two important things about land, they don't make it any more (and we have shitloads of it) & Location is everything.

You can flounce off and take your Barnet money, the potential rental income from Lossie is huge.

If the Americans don't want it, perhaps the Russians might.

I doubt that there are many Scots who really think it will all be sunshine and roses if we go it alone, especially with the industrially deluded SNP at the helm. However, sticking with the UK is not a recipe for calm waters either.
Military bases north of the wall, not a lot left after the careful application of high explosives on the way out.

Oil revenues, maybe far cheaper to buy from US oil producers and start fracking in England. Scotland gets left with rig decommissioning costs, they want they have it.

Build a fence, not a problem, but Scotland will be far worse off than rUK.
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Old 14th Mar 2017, 00:29
  #11786 (permalink)  
 
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No point in having military bases if you have nothing to put in them and no means to build more because all warship building would move back south (great news for the North West possibly)

Also most of the oil fields are ready for de comissioning and that does not come cheap.

Fisihing? well you can bet the EU will want that before they will even talk about access

Finally there is the small matter of getting ones whiskey to the continent and the quickest way is across the channel how are you going to do that?
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Old 14th Mar 2017, 00:41
  #11787 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by d88 View Post
Whose this Tom you keep alluding too ?
Who is?

Joad
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Old 14th Mar 2017, 02:05
  #11788 (permalink)  
 
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Well if some individual(s) take action to attempt to break up the Union of the United Kingdom, that may be considered Treason. The Queen has large land holdings in Scotland, how are they to be dealt with? How will the Queen be able to visit her Balmoral Estate if she has to cross an international border? Who will be responsible for her security? How will the Scots feel about a heavily armed English escort accompanying Her Majesty across their border into their newly sovereign territory? We know that the Queen is against the idea of Scottish separatism from various sources. How will the Scots feel about footing the bill for a visit by a Head of State several times a year?

The Scottish Nationalists really haven't thought any of this through. Without English financial support, Scotland is a bankrupt nation living on the edge of one of the most treacherous stretches of ocean anywhere in the world. The climate is generally horrible and on the rare sunny day in Summer, the midges in the Highlands are insufferable.

With the withdrawal of miltary bases and supporting industry, half of Scotland's jobs will disappear. Oil and gas from the North Sea will simply be routed south to Newcastle, or thereabouts. Without English cooperation, everything will need to be shipped across the North Sea, but without any funds, how will Scotland pay for the imports?

Scottish independence? You have got to be joking!

I should point out that I actually enjoy visiting Scotland and have holidayed there many times. The strong sense of national identity is great, it makes you feel that you have travelled somewhere different and worthwhile. The scenery is great and the people are generally friendly and happy to chat about local history and the clans, which again makes a change from the homogenous multicultualism that has been imposed south of the border.

By all means rejoice in your cultural identity and take pride in Scottish nationalism, but please don't kid yourselves that Scotland is capable of going it alone.
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Old 14th Mar 2017, 02:22
  #11789 (permalink)  
 
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Interestingly, many correspondents in the Irish Times express great reluctance to taking on NI.
My Irish friends laugh when we have been in Ireland and I buy all their homegrown Daily Newspapers, they regard Irish Times as a West Brit, Liberal piece of garbage. Given their politics live from Right to Left Wing it is a fairly consistent commentary.
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Old 14th Mar 2017, 02:43
  #11790 (permalink)  
 
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When the head is allowed to rule the heart I should think most of them dont. For almost the last half century they have looked north and seen a country riven by troubles because a sizeable minority were dissatisfied with the status quo. In a united Ireland they are going to have to deal with an equally dissatisfied minority, only this time it will be former Unionists. Do the Garda Siochana and the Irish Army really think they could cope?
My comments on a wedding in NI last year and it was a question asked and shot down quickly by someone whom found out later was a politician who have read had family members murdered by PIRA / INLA.

His clear view was Loyalists were supported by the state and supplied with what they wanted, somewhat shocking admission but he knows what he knows. Not a single person disagreed with him, I was the outsider and a RC as well.

He viewed a United Ireland as inevitable though opposed to it he said at this point in time........... his emphasis.

In event of a referendum vote he figured many would up and leave, he named areas he hoped would all do it, all on his side.

Again he viewed any outbreak as shortlived as Loyalism has zero support from anywhere, where he said Republicans had widespread support plus it would be a democratic vote. Reckoned PSNI could handle it. UK offering generous resettlement to UK or the old colonies OZ/NZ would assist.

Bit shocked when he said that he expected probably 15-20% of Unionist would vote for it and admitted that he would not be taking a resttlement or anything else, it was his home so he intended to stay.
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Old 14th Mar 2017, 06:01
  #11791 (permalink)  
d88
 
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Okay are these acceptable then:
NATO - In your own eloquent words - Pure drivel. Re read my post especially the part about Russian Subs entering the North Atlantic. NATO needs Scotland more than Scotland needs NATO, end of.

I've not even mentioned Russian aircraft entering Scottish airspace yet , nor Russian warships sitting off the Moray Coast, the Royal Navy not having the resources to send a single warship for over 24 hours.

Furthermore, are you seriously trying to suggest countries such as Iceland with not so much as an armed militia can be members of NATO, yet somehow Scotland, without giving any reason will be excluded ?


EU - again, please keep up with the times.

By all means rejoice in your cultural identity and take pride in Scottish nationalism, but please don't kid yourselves that Scotland is capable of going it alone.
Really , so countries such as Denmark or Norway ( generally a northern european and similar size) are more than capable but Scotland somehow is not ? What we have seen is the complete continued failure of UK economic policy in Scotland, it's time to take back control and stop sending Scotland's money to subsidise sewage projects in London, HS2, Trident etc etc

Last edited by d88; 14th Mar 2017 at 08:40.
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Old 14th Mar 2017, 06:04
  #11792 (permalink)  
d88
 
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Who is?

Joad
Still not with you
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Old 14th Mar 2017, 06:16
  #11793 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
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Originally Posted by VP959
The main issue seems to be that many who voted to leave the UK in the last referendum weren't acting rationally, as even back then there was a big financial black hole that was pretty obvious to anyone that looked at the real numbers.
And what exactly has rationality got to do with what happens in an election?

We all saw what happened on the 23rd June 2016.
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Old 14th Mar 2017, 06:24
  #11794 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by GOULI
I should point out that I actually enjoy visiting Scotland and have holidayed there many times. The strong sense of national identity is great, it makes you feel that you have travelled somewhere different and worthwhile. The scenery is great and the people are generally friendly and happy to chat about local history and the clans, which again makes a change from the homogenous multicultualism that has been imposed south of the border.
And as Frankie Boyle puts it, "we've had a religious war going on for centuries. These Muslims haven't even got a football team."
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Old 14th Mar 2017, 08:08
  #11795 (permalink)  
 
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I find most of the stunning Countryside areas of Scotland from the border to the very northerly point contain people who are very friendly and will talk to you very easily...its a wee bit more difficult in some of the cities..
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Old 14th Mar 2017, 09:52
  #11796 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by d88 View Post
Still not with you
Now now Tom, we all know you know
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Old 14th Mar 2017, 10:04
  #11797 (permalink)  
 
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no oil revenue for you.
no whisky revenue for you.
no mil bases north of the wall.
no say who else does get to operate mil base north of the wall.
no Faslane
no Coulport
no Rosyth
Looks like you were struggling with your list, 5 of them are different ways of saying the same thing and represent a saving to the UK tax payer. Coincidentally, no longer being responsible for oil also will mean a nett saving for the UK tax payer. If we look at balance of investment for whiskey revenue vs Barnett subsidy, you can keep the whisky and your foul salmon farms as well. It's hard to see a downside
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Old 14th Mar 2017, 12:12
  #11798 (permalink)  
 
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Not great reading for Oooor Nic

Do voters in Scotland want a second referendum? - BBC News
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Old 14th Mar 2017, 12:43
  #11799 (permalink)  
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
 
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Quote:
Okay are these acceptable then:
NATO - In your own eloquent words - Pure drivel. Re read my post especially the part about Russian Subs entering the North Atlantic. NATO needs Scotland more than Scotland needs NATO, end of. I've not even mentioned Russian aircraft entering Scottish airspace yet , nor Russian warships sitting off the Moray Coast, the Royal Navy not having the resources to send a single warship for over 24 hours.

Furthermore, are you seriously trying to suggest countries such as Iceland with not so much as an armed militia can be members of NATO, yet somehow Scotland, without giving any reason will be excluded ?
Without getting involved in the main arguement - you really don't know what you are talking about.

Scotland contributes nothing to detecting subs in the GIUK gap. The Nimrods, when we had them, could respond if required, but detection took place using the SOSUS chain which came ashore at Brawdy south of the border - but even that's long shut. If we could live with the Nimrod capability gap, we can live with a Scotland gap until the P-8s arrive - and based in the south.

Russian bombers are intercepted first by the Norwegians. The US used to have fighters and AWACS at Keflavik in Iceland, but they went home in 2006. The RAF respond as it is a NATO QRA task under SACEUR to defend NATO airspace. If Scotland isn't in NATO then the UK won't have to unless they come down the North Sea (after the Danes and Dutch if they cross the FIR boundary, or the French if they go around Ireland and enter the SW Approaches.

Iceland is a NATO anomaly because it hosted the UK and US forces in WWII (we invaded them to "save" them from the Germans) and they stayed during the Cold War. Since they are in they stay. Don't expect Scotland to be given the same treatment unless they agree to spend 2% on defence and establish and maintain a QRA and EW radar system to monitor the NATO approaches.
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Old 14th Mar 2017, 12:43
  #11800 (permalink)  
 
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There would also be the minor matter of HMRC regrouping South of the border taking between 6-8,000 jobs (depending on how well existing cuts go pre 2021) with them. Major job losses with HMRC Scottish office closures - BBC News
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