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Scottish independence Hamsterwheel.

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Scottish independence Hamsterwheel.

Old 13th Dec 2014, 15:53
  #9741 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Europe
Posts: 651
another short and sweet quote

You lost - get over it! No more votes it's a dead subject. Lets get on with getting rid of these nationalists once and for all.
Whereas a new poll of my household revealed No on 100% and Yes on 0%. Equally relevant I feel.
the nutters might remain but their numbers are clearly dwindling.

it will be interesting to see how far the moderate SNP support base decides "enough of the madness, bye" next year.
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Old 13th Dec 2014, 15:55
  #9742 (permalink)  
 
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The only important referendum is the next one.
I will look forward to that in another 30 years or so but until thenI guess you are stuck with us
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Old 13th Dec 2014, 15:57
  #9743 (permalink)  
 
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2017, Rob.
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Old 13th Dec 2014, 16:01
  #9744 (permalink)  
 
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Given the average life expectancy in Scotland at the moment, I guess Perthy is worried about being around for the next neverendum.
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Old 13th Dec 2014, 16:04
  #9745 (permalink)  
 
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The Perthling has drawn one's attention to an unusually erudite article in The Hootsmon, which says, in part:

STUBBORN denial and spurious beliefs will not help build a more progressive country. Scotland must leave 18 September behind.

It is a frenetic, dynamic time to be living in Scotland – politically, culturally and in many other aspects of public life. Nearly three months since the momentous indyref, Scotland is still gripped by a sense of movement, possibilities and new openings – up to and beyond the 2015 and 2016 elections.

Yet at the same time in parts of the independence movement there are unrealistic expectations of political change, of belief that the Union is finished, and that Scotland can embark on its destiny in the next couple of years.

Any radical politics has to have a sense of what is possible, to push it as far as it can, to understand timescales and how these dovetail with strategy. And critically it has to understand the political culture beyond its own boundaries – in the Scotland which voted No.

The independence referendum was a historic moment, an epic time in Scotland’s political evolution, and an awakening of the democratic impulse. Yet, it produced a comfortable victory for No and a defeat for Yes. For all the commentary that Yes won the campaign and that the idea of independence has been normalised, defeat has an upside: an opportunity and release which shouldn’t just be squandered.

Defeat allows for catharsis and political renewal. This is an evolution that successful political parties the world over understand: think Labour in 1983 and 1992, or the Tories in 2005, and the disaster that befalls a party that ignores this, such as Scottish Labour in 2007 and 2011.

These then are some of the myths of the indyref which are still held on to by some and which need dispelling:

There is no 45. The 45 per cent reference is a chimera, a passing moment on the day of 18 September which isn’t a permanent political force. It provides no pathway to a Yes majority, and instead is a political wall, which has in it an element of soft sectarianism. Many prominent Yes supporters still embrace “the 45” on Twitter and social media – something understandable in the immediate aftermath of 18 September but which isn’t really excusable nearly three months after the vote.

There is a propensity to believe that Yes speaks for Scotland, missing that No won. It is a common trait of bad politics to pose the world as you want to see it, rather than it is, and then build your perspective from this.

Making the mistake that Yes speaks for Scotland misunderstands politics on numerous levels: the nature of democratic legitimacy, the contours of the No victory, and any notion of future political and constitutional change. Pro-independence opinion has to grasp that it does not speak for majority Scotland; it must reach out, listen and empathise, and not engage in the politics of smugness and self-righteousness.

The pro-Union majority did not vote out of selfishness, false consciousness or other reasons which can be dismissed. Instead, like independence voters they were motivated by a huge variety of reasons – all of which are valid.

The notion that Yes won working class Scotland is far too simple to be true and as problematic as placing middle class opinion completely in the No camp. The independence case won parts of the working class, but not comprehensively or uniformly. Yes won majority support in the C2 skilled working class, but lost the DE semi and unskilled working class. This shows that the working class overall was fairly evenly divided between Yes and No – a picture which was one of the anchors of a No victory.

Only four out of Scotland’s 32 local authorities voted Yes; of which three – Glasgow, North Lanarkshire and West Dunbartonshire – can be described as Labour heartlands. Dundee which also voted Yes (and by the biggest margin in the country) has frequently and inaccurately been described as a Labour heartland. This is a bit of a time warp, as the last time this was really true was 1973-74, considering the SNP’s Gordon Wilson won Dundee East in February 1974, and the SNP has held the seat in the Scottish Parliament from 2003. And significantly, several traditional Labour areas such as Fife, Renfrewshire and South Lanarkshire voted No.

Another powerful myth has been that the Yes vote was more mobilised than No. This is often connected to the myth of a working class Scotland in previously solid Labour areas turning out in record numbers.

....


The further removed people were from the Central Belt the more likely they were to vote No. Thus, Shetland (64 per cent), Orkney (67 per cent), Dumfries and Galloway (66 per cent) and Scottish Borders (67 per cent) were all emphatic No areas. The reasons for some of this are illuminating: dislike of Edinburgh authority and centralisation; a feeling that the SNP did not understand the needs of “far-flung” parts of Scotland; worries about losing EU funding; and even that London rule was for some less insensitive than the prospect of an omnipotent Edinburgh.

The gathering of power to Scotland’s capital erected powerful barriers to the appeal of further self-government and questioned the relationship between independence and greater democratisation. To take one example, in Dumfries and Galloway, many people complain frequently about the lack of priority treatment of police calls now there is only one national police force compared to previously. The removal of the local and experience of centralisation has in places hurt the independence cause.

....

Large parts of Yes did not really understand No. Some did not want to understand it, taking pleasure in articulating a set of stereotypes, while others went further and cast doubt on the reasons and motivations of a large part of the No coalition.


Yes and No are over. They are not the future. There is no future in them. They belong to the past – and died on 18 September. The Yes/No binary has to be lost to allow the emergent voices, spaces and movements which came forth in the *referendum to grow, be set free, and find a place to flourish which is not dependent or related to the independence referendum.
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Old 13th Dec 2014, 16:09
  #9746 (permalink)  
 
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Yes, indeed Scotland must leave 18th September behind. What was then is not now.

Balcony-dwellers, take note.
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Old 13th Dec 2014, 16:12
  #9747 (permalink)  
 
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Yes, indeed Scotland must leave 18th September behind. What was then is not now.
Yes, back then you had an outside chance of Independence....

How the hell did you manage to vote Perthsaint? You are totally incapable of answering questions, must have taken you hours......
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Old 13th Dec 2014, 16:15
  #9748 (permalink)  
 
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What was then is not now
Spoken with the attention span of a gnat.
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Old 13th Dec 2014, 16:23
  #9749 (permalink)  
 
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The fundamental point brought out in that piece is that it is a sad error to believe that Yes spoke for Scotland, while No did not.

The majority who rejected independence did so because they believe that union is best for Scotland. They were speaking for Scotland, as they would in any future vote on the same subject.

That subsequent events, and the collapse of the oil price, have proved them absolutely right is a matter of record. Scotland is now infinitely better off than it would have been by this time if a majority had voted Yes, let alone by the time separation would have been completed, and anyone has to be peculiarly thick-headed not to understand that.

We should not pay much serious attention to trolls like Perthy here.
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Old 13th Dec 2014, 20:00
  #9750 (permalink)  
 
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Over 500 pages and the perthling doesn't seem to have realised that 'Scottish independence' is as much of a myth as the Loch Ness Monster!!

But his constant posting gives the marvellous opportunity to keep on re-stating the result of that 'once in a generation' opportunity where the clearly stated sovereign will of the Scottish people was "NO"!!

Which makes the view from the balcony so beautiful!!
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Old 13th Dec 2014, 21:13
  #9751 (permalink)  
 
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Wow, I get dragged out Christmas shopping by the wife and come back to find Perthy still at it - this has been the most active (and funniest) days on this thread for ages. All we need now is Pinky to join Perthy for a full evening of entertainment. Who needs the X-Factor (apart from the wife!)?

Popcorn and beer at the ready, please don't disappoint or I will have to go and look for the meteor shower
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Old 14th Dec 2014, 10:24
  #9752 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by perthsaint View Post

Scotland’s governance is not a matter for those who do not live here. Is that simple enough for you?
Even Nic gets it Perthy

BBC News - Sturgeon to press PM on voting age

She is going to Westminster to ASK for something
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Old 14th Dec 2014, 10:38
  #9753 (permalink)  
 
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As straightforward an argument for independence as you could wish for.
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Old 14th Dec 2014, 11:02
  #9754 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by perthsaint View Post
As straightforward an argument for independence as you could wish for.
Absolutely Perthy, do you reckon Westminster will LET you guys have another go at asking the question
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Old 14th Dec 2014, 11:06
  #9755 (permalink)  
 
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PS,

Can I ask why you think there will be another Indy Ref in 2017 when the SNP will no longer be in the Scottish Government after 2016?
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Old 14th Dec 2014, 11:52
  #9756 (permalink)  
 
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Who will be in the Scottish Government then?

Evidence and reasoning is required.
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Old 14th Dec 2014, 11:55
  #9757 (permalink)  
 
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As straightforward an argument for independence as you could wish for.
I'm with Perthy on this one, the horrible scenario of Labour routing the SNP and contributing to a national Labour Government in the UK doesn't bear thinking about.
The best that we can hope for is an overwhelming SNP victory, followed by a swift referendum which gives a satisfactory outcome this time, followed by the construction of a large wall.
But this is wishful thinking.

In the meantime we must sit on the balcony peering down into the black depths to see if there is any form of intelligent life below.
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Old 14th Dec 2014, 14:20
  #9758 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by perthsaint View Post
Who will be in the Scottish Government then?

Evidence and reasoning is required.

Perthy does irony, as Perky would proudly announce Pure Comedy Gold
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Old 14th Dec 2014, 14:33
  #9759 (permalink)  

Flashes from the Archives of Oblivion
 
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Wondering if you armchair pundits and experts on all things Scottish would care to stick necks out and forecast the political complexion of the country after the next election.

When I say "the country" I of course refer to Scotland.

El G.
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Old 14th Dec 2014, 15:04
  #9760 (permalink)  
 
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armchair pundits and experts on all things Scottish
I've got arms on my study's desk's chair. Does that qualify me to answer?

I reckon the current polls are right to suggest that it'll be an SNP majority in the pygmy parliament.

The gnats will then spend spend spend as if they've got an Englishman's credit card and no limit on the overdraft, 'cos they will have both.

If they are crazy and the idealogues that they currently show themselves to be, they'll try for a Rhodesia-style bid for UDI, but with their Mugabe-style way of doing things. No hilarity will ensue.
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