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Syria

Old 23rd Aug 2013, 18:28
  #61 (permalink)  
 
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Dak, that's a very good question. I don't believe there is unity of opinion in our government regarding what to do in our future relationships with Russia.

I think Putin is more interested in a second Cold War than anyone in the U.S. There are certainly any number in this country to perceive Russia as reverting to Cold War Soviet attitudes ... but IMHO I'd say that's a myopic view. Russia is a Powerful Nation, and wants to play what Russia sees as its rightful role as a Powerful Nation. Can't say as I blame them.

Within the last year, the opportunity for Russia and the US to work together and try to help resolve the problem in Syria has been open. Out of a promising start has come ... a mess. Part of this has to do with Russia pursuing Russian interests (who can blame them for that?) and part has to do with dick measuring between powers, which both Obama and Putin have engaged in.

I don't think anyone wants another Cold War. The economic cost of that -- if you recall the Cold War, it was filled with trade restrictions -- would hit EVERYONE in the wallet.

Bomb bomb bomb
Bomb Bomb Assad

Looks like the Senator has been singing in the shower a bit too loudly of late.
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Old 23rd Aug 2013, 19:34
  #62 (permalink)  
 
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There are some reports and comment in the Russian media that the videos uploaded to Youtube purporting to show the victims of a chem attack were posted the day before the attack is supposed to have happened which is pouring fuel on the false flag claim.

Edit: Typos

Last edited by Dak Man; 23rd Aug 2013 at 19:35.
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Old 23rd Aug 2013, 21:36
  #63 (permalink)  
 
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WRAITH,

You seem to have forgotten it was your lot and the French that created this in 1919. So, if you want to stop creating the problem find a time machine.

BTW, calling Syria and Iraq "civilizations" is serious abuse of the word.

GF
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Old 23rd Aug 2013, 21:40
  #64 (permalink)  
 
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Angry

WRAITH,

You seem to have forgotten it was your lot and the French that created this in 1919. So, if you want to stop creating the problem find a time machine.

BTW, calling Syria and Iraq "civilizations" is serious abuse of the word.

LW_50,

You haven't visited Russia, have you? It's a Third World country with nukes, a dysfunctional society, decrepit and disintegrating military, mostly extraction-based economy run by gangsters. Other that, it's the US.

GF

Last edited by galaxy flyer; 23rd Aug 2013 at 21:40.
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Old 23rd Aug 2013, 22:18
  #65 (permalink)  

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The Israelis do. They probably lobbed in a rocket or two
Got news for you, if you don't think the Russians are not watching the airspace over Syria like a hawk, you've better think again.

So is the US by the way, but you would just say that Obama would just lie about Israel sending the odd rocket into Syria.

I'm sure what you said sounds good in the Pub with your mates, but if Israel dared such a thing, the Russians would be all over it, screaming in the UN.

Nope, it is just Muslims killing Muslims, as usual. That's why we need to stay the hell out of this God awful mess.
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Old 24th Aug 2013, 04:47
  #66 (permalink)  
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I have to agree, Eclan, Israel is just the sort to stick it to Iran.

Stay tuned.
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Old 24th Aug 2013, 06:57
  #67 (permalink)  
 
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Our Foreign Secretary William Hague has completely lost the plot - he is now certifiable.Who in his right mind would want to get involved in the mess that is the Syrian civil war? The abject failure of intervention in Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya,costing the lives of hundreds of British young men, does not seem to have affected his reasoning.Further military action in the M.E. is not worth the life of a single British soldier, apart from the millions it will cost.We are in the process of cutting benefits to the disabled while being able to fund totally idiotic Middle Eastern adventures which will be of no obvious benefit to us. This governments priority seems to be the establishment of some kind of democracy in Arabic countries - something that anyone who has spent time there knows is a pipedream.We elect governments to look after the interests and welfare of the British people -not citizens of the ME. As I said before,LET THE BUGGERS GET ON WITH IT. I have a 21 year old son - would I want him to put his life on the line for the Syrians? Ask yourself the same question before you ask the sons of others to do exactly that.

Last edited by bcgallacher; 24th Aug 2013 at 07:11. Reason: spelling
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Old 24th Aug 2013, 07:02
  #68 (permalink)  
 
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galaxy:

yes indeed, but you need to take into account the historical context back then. On one side you had the recently collapsed Ottoman empire spelling a potential for another decade of regional strife, on the other two victorious powers who also happened to be colonial empires. That being said, both did done and good with it in the aftermath of WWII and so it should have remained. And yes, they were modern societies before American interventionism set them back to where they are today.

con-pilot:

Israel has on several occasions violated Syria's sovereignty and committed acts of war in its territory even. The fallout in the UN was always the same: Rest of the world led by Russia and China seeking reprieve in the Security Council, which would be promptly blocked and vetoed by the US. So there's that; what do? I agree wholeheartedly that the mess should be left to them to sort out and redraw the borders as they wish.
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Old 24th Aug 2013, 12:49
  #69 (permalink)  
 
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Wraith,

So, it's a modern society when the government in power gasses its citizens (Kurds in Iraq) or uses artillery to annihilate a city, killing thousands (Hama in Syria). Your idea of civilized and mine greatly differ.

GF
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Old 24th Aug 2013, 13:19
  #70 (permalink)  
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This may be of interest:
From: airship <[email protected]>
To: CSO Spock - USS Enterprise <[email protected]>
Subject: Chemical weapons use in Syria
Date: 91247.93
Message-ID: <censored>
<SNIP>
Accept-Language: en-EU
Content-Language: en-EU
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Spock,

Hope all goes well?! Please consult this thread and revert.

With kind regards,
airship.

From: CSO Spock - USS Enterprise <[email protected]>
To: airship <[email protected]>
Subject: RE:Chemical weapons use in Syria
Date: 91249.67
Message-ID: <censored>
<SNIP>
Accept-Language: all
Content-Language: en-EU
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Dear airship,

It's been awhile, hope your pudicats are well? A very rapid reply, as the

situation aboard is us usual, quite desperate (will update you later).

Let me get this straight: Human-beings are these days very concerned about the use

of chemical weapons attacks against innocent civilian populations...?! And the

problem appears to be just who are behind these attacks involving chemical weapons

(eg. the pro-Syrian government forces and/or the rebels)?

Logic says that if the use of such chemical weapons is so abhorrent and

unacceptable to human-beings, it should not matter who are responsable...?! And

immediate or rapid intervention by external forces cannot reasonably be "held-

back" awaiting "proof of guilt" of one side or another...! Otherwise, this

inaction should more or less be considered as willful-inaction by such external

forces.

Hope that helps.

PS. Human-beings regularly use massive amounts of chemical weapons against other

Earth-species - insects in particular, with little remorse. I recently visited a

very advanced planet whose cockroach-like habitants possessed WMDs which could

easily destroy the Earth in an instant. Luckily, they haven't yet heard about the

Earth and prefer darker places away from sunlight, perhaps like some of Earth's

own leaders...?!
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Old 24th Aug 2013, 14:57
  #71 (permalink)  
 
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I always suspected you were a space cadet, airship. Now it's proven.

GF
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Old 24th Aug 2013, 15:08
  #72 (permalink)  
 
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Israel is just the sort to stick it to Iran
So what's been stopping them for the past two or three years ever since Iran has been a live issue? The US has held some sway for sure, but even you couldn't stop them from acting if they felt truly threatened. Maybe they're waiting to see whether Rouhani changes the tone, or maybe the likes of Stuxnet have delayed the programme. Or maybe Iran is well aware of Israel's intentions and are have prepared themselves accordingly - they're not going to fall for a sucker punch like Iraq did in '81.

Re Syria, the various ME actors couldn't have picked a better country to fight over and settle their differences. A dismal, pointless country run by a nasty little regime, with eff-all to offer the world save refugees and terrorists.
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Old 24th Aug 2013, 16:29
  #73 (permalink)  
 
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I agree with bcgallacher. We cannot afford the cost of involvement. Apparently Syria isn't that bad a country, but it's had nothing but crap rulers for so long that it's now a real mess. I knew a man who had lived there in the late 1950's while working for International Aeradio. He said that it wasn't a bad place to live but any change in the government was just change to different load of crap.
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Old 24th Aug 2013, 16:55
  #74 (permalink)  

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connie - The Israelis have been involved already. This is a consignment of Russian missiles going up in smoke.

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Old 24th Aug 2013, 16:59
  #75 (permalink)  
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In Syria we have Al-qaeda fighting Hezbollah and the Assads. It doesn't get any better than that. Likewise in Egypt, the army seems to be effectively dispatching the Muslim Brotherhood, while isolating Hamas.

Why would any Western government want to interfere? I certainly don't support that at this point.

I sympathize with the innocents caught up in the warfare, but we all get the governments we deserve, don't we, whether it's derived democratically or otherwise.
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Old 24th Aug 2013, 17:02
  #76 (permalink)  

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connie - The Israelis have been involved already. This is a consignment of Russian missiles going up in smoke.
Okay, very interesting, you know that Israel was responsible for that exactly how?

Did Israel issue a press release or something like that?

Seriously, I really would like to know.

Thank you.
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Old 24th Aug 2013, 17:04
  #77 (permalink)  
 
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In any major conflict, if you want to find out who the bad guys are, you can bet that they are the ones supported by Russia or China.

Nine times out out ten, you won't lose your money.






These odds might even be pessimistic.
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Old 24th Aug 2013, 17:10
  #78 (permalink)  
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con-pilot. Twas May 5th.

Israel strikes Syria, says targeting Hezbollah arms

...........Israel does not confirm such missions explicitly - a policy it says is intended to avoid provoking reprisals. But an Israeli official told Reuters on condition of anonymity that the strikes were carried out by its forces, as was a raid early on Friday that U.S. President Barack Obama said had been justified.

A Western intelligence source told Reuters: "In last night's attack, as in the previous one, what was attacked were stores of Fateh-110 missiles that were in transit from Iran to Hezbollah."

Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said his aim for Israel was to "guarantee its future" - language he has used to warn of a willingness to attack Iran's nuclear sites, even in defiance of U.S. advice, as well as to deny Hezbollah heavier weapons. He later flew to China on a scheduled trip, projecting confidence there would be no major escalation - though Israel has reinforced its anti-missile batteries in the north..........

--------------------------

Meanwhile, for those who think the gas attack videos were a fake....

Syria: Thousands Suffering Neurotoxic Symptoms Treated in Hospitals Supported by MSF

Brussels/New York, August 24, 2013 -- Three hospitals in Syria's Damascus governorate that are supported by the international medical humanitarian organization Doctors Without Borders Médecins Sans Frontières (MSF) have reported to MSF that they received approximately 3,600 patients displaying neurotoxic symptoms in less than three hours on the morning of Wednesday, August 21, 2013. Of those patients, 355 reportedly died.

Since 2012, MSF has built a strong and reliable collaboration with medical networks, hospitals and medical points in the Damascus governorate, and has been providing them with drugs, medical equipment and technical support. Due to significant security risks, MSF staff members have not been able to access the facilities.
“Medical staff working in these facilities provided detailed information to MSF doctors regarding large numbers of patients arriving with symptoms including convulsions, excess saliva, pinpoint pupils, blurred vision and respiratory distress,” said Dr. Bart Janssens, MSF director of operations.
Patients were treated using MSF-supplied atropine, a drug used to treat neurotoxic symptoms. MSF is now trying to replenish the facilities’ empty stocks and provide additional medical supplies and guidance.
“MSF can neither scientifically confirm the cause of these symptoms nor establish who is responsible for the attack,” said Dr. Janssens. “However, the reported symptoms of the patients, in addition to the epidemiological pattern of the events—characterized by the massive influx of patients in a short period of time, the origin of the patients, and the contamination of medical and first aid workers—strongly indicate mass exposure to a neurotoxic agent. This would constitute a violation of international humanitarian law, which absolutely prohibits the use of chemical and biological weapons.”...........
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Old 24th Aug 2013, 17:36
  #79 (permalink)  

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Thank you for the information on the Israeli rocket attack, looks like my assumption was wrong.

Well, It's not the first time.

Meanwhile, for those who think the gas attack videos were a fake....
I'm not all that sure that all that many people questioned that there had been an actual attack, as much questioning who was actually responsible for the attack.

I do believe that question has yet to be really answered.

Anyway, we're best to stay out of the entire mess.
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Old 24th Aug 2013, 18:02
  #80 (permalink)  

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connie - no worries, perfectly fair to ask for what passes as proof in these affairs. Thanks to ORAC for looking it up.

As I understood it the Israelis didn't like the idea that Hezbollah would have access to deadly missiles capable of hitting Israel.

If ever there was a certainty in the uncertain area that is the Middle East it is that if you cross a red line with Israel, they don't piss about.
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