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Boston Marathon-What is wrong with people?

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Boston Marathon-What is wrong with people?

Old 19th Apr 2013, 18:46
  #461 (permalink)  
Dushan
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Originally Posted by El Grifo View Post
How dark and twisted are the spectacles through which you view your country Mr Brickhistory !
El G, come here and listen to the multiple outlets' news cycle* for a few days and you will see what Brick is saying is true.







*Not available in every corner of the globe...
 
Old 19th Apr 2013, 19:16
  #462 (permalink)  
 
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El Grifo,

Quite a large force of men and equipment from many branches of security lined up against one 19 year old.

Whilst I realise they all like to get into the act, it looks decidedly like a case of "overkill"
Nice that you are certain it is only one 19 year old.

Gotta love these armchair ankle biters.
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Old 19th Apr 2013, 19:20
  #463 (permalink)  
 
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El Grifo
Let's hope he does not get "caught in the crossfire"

Quite a large force of men and equipment from many branches of security lined up against one 19 year old.

Whilst I realise they all like to get into the act, it looks decidedly like a case of "overkill"

Oops, you know what I mean
El Grifo
Oh, does it "look decidedly like a case of that" to you? Is that supposed to come across as authoritative and knowing? Let me guess, you've never been in charge of marshalling and organizing forces to search a crowded town for an armed and dangerous fugitive still at large where every citizen he could run into is a potential hostage or additional murder victim?

Do you feel you're seeing unfair odds vs that poor 19 year old? He's really not that big of a threat? Big macho men with their big equipment just want to "get in on the act"? If that's the case, please tell us what El Grifo the Expert on apprehending fugitives deems more appropriate to get the job done with the minimum risk posed to those in their homes, finding him quickly since he may already be holding hostages or keeping him pinned down if he isn't? Explain to us how "less is actually more" when it comes to manpower applied to the methodical task at hand. Enlighten us, I implore you.

Whilst you may think you're cleverly calling into question the response and disposition of law enforcement resources available in a large metropolitan area who must search door-to-door for the most wanted man in America, I believe what you've written is quite possibly the most ignorant thing I've read here since I began reading ignorant things written here. Ole' amigo.

Last edited by PukinDog; 19th Apr 2013 at 19:49.
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Old 19th Apr 2013, 19:51
  #464 (permalink)  
 
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Do you feel you're seeing unfair odds vs that poor 19 year old? He's really not that big of a threat? Big macho men with their big equipment just want to "get in on the act"? If that's the case, please tell us what El Grifo the Expert on apprehending fugitives deems more appropriate to get the job done with the minimum risk posed to those in their homes, or perhaps finding him quickly since he may already be holding hostages? Enlighten us, I implore you.
What I see is more stupidity. We Americans do not know any other way to deal with a show of force except with a bigger show of force. This strategy already got us into an enormousness amount of trouble in Iraq and Afghanistan and has practically bankrupted the country, as it did with Rome and her ruinous wars. It is a strategy that is also doomed to long-run failure because the increasing sophistication of deadly technology and the wide-spread dissemination of information means that sooner rather than later the nightmare scenario of a crazy with a small-scale nuclear bomb is going to happen. Then want? Are we going to respond with a bigger show of force by nuking the whole city? The end game of always upping the ante is always destruction of everything.

Our American paranoia is driven by the impossible goal of risk minimization. The honest answer is that a hostage stand-off or even another 20 people killed while a small scale tactical force hunt this guy down is the better alternative than a shaken city living in fear. We need to stop working harder and begin to work smarter. I know, I know, that isn't any fun. Drama drives page views and gives little men raging hard-ons. Yet for those who are interested in genuine security as opposed to security theater the best answer to this type of situations is deescalation and short-run risk maximization.
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Old 19th Apr 2013, 20:01
  #465 (permalink)  
 
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Having everyone off the streets makes it a hell of a lot easier.

Sure it is inconvenient but IMHO better that than them finding
the suspect and then having "civilians" possibly caught in the
cross fire.


Also, re the numbers of police etc, once they find him and
knowing his propensity to use force including bombs AND
that he has already escaped capture once, then surely once
they find him being able to contain / cordon off the area
or provide overwhelming force if he shoots is more important ?
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Old 19th Apr 2013, 20:02
  #466 (permalink)  

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although I think the FBI should
have come out earlier and told the media to stop until the FBI provided
more info -
The FBI cannot tell or order the media to do squat. They can ask, but that's about it. All any law enforcement agency in the US, including the FBI, can do is only remove the media from a certain area/s.

That's it.

I do well see your point and mostly agree. But today's media is scoop crazy, just as the newspapers of old were before the age of 'media'.

Going back to the suspects, I just watched the aunt and the father of the two suspects both more or less, well the father flat out did claim, that the two boys, that wouldn't hurt a fly, were framed.

The aunt even claimed that the video and still shots of the two leaving the bombs, fake photography. Well, I guess that would be expected from the family. 'Are you going to believe me or your lying eyes?"

Trying time for all, especially for the victims and the families of.

I really, really hope they capture the young one alive. He has to be wounded, after seeing the car that was shot up, plus an IED going off in the car, I cannot see how he would not be.

Last edited by con-pilot; 19th Apr 2013 at 20:15.
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Old 19th Apr 2013, 20:04
  #467 (permalink)  
 
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It may be prurient, but at a technical level it's interesting to listen to the cops r/t in real-time and monitor the report locations on Google maps.

I'm surprised that a second world country is so backward in its technology. The commanders are constantly having to ask for position reports of all their assets.
In the 21st century in first world countries the cops have automatic GPS data telemeted constantly so the controllers always know exactly who is exactly where.

Despite the very low tech and the comically inefficient use of resources, they are actually being quite methodical in 'owning' (to borrow their jargon) two streets at a time and clear house by house.

Listen to the current roll-call of the poor sods who've been on duty since midnight.
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Old 19th Apr 2013, 20:04
  #468 (permalink)  
 
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I am not sure that any public threat is an excuse for allowing ourselves to be subject to "Lockdown" by "The Authorities".
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Old 19th Apr 2013, 20:06
  #469 (permalink)  
 
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Oh dear, Dushan. Go back to page 3 and have a read.

you
Yes it is, but it has to be with extreme prejudice and with intent to leave no one alive on the enemy side. Total eradication.
me
And if it turns out to be some NRA nut, so concerned of his assault rifle being taken that he decided to take matters in to his own hands, the correct response according to Dushan shall be?
"Extreme prejudice", "enemy side", "leave no one alive". All sounds rather war-like and disproportionate if you ask me. So the question remains, if a terrorist is not someone you can declare war on, how would your proposed response work? I'd venture you wouldn't be so keen to apply it to "enemies" such as, say, Timothy McVeigh, the Wisconsin Sikh temple attacker, Andrew Stack, or the hundreds of others who have launched attacks in the US would you? But no doubt you are overjoyed to find a Muslim angle in this one.

For what it's worth, my guess is that they aren't fighting for Islamic Chechnyan independence as much as they would like to claim. Its simply an easy to grasp rallying point for their general failure to assimilate and get by in US society. Just as a red-neck might join a militia or the unemployable yob becomes a football hooligan. Doesn't make football, opposition to govt or Islam the cause.

Already a bit sad to see an article linked on Google News which makes grand mention of Afghanistan, Al Quaida, Islamic radicalism, the Taliban, etc - the "terror" buzzwords of today. I wouldn't be surprised if these chaps connection to any of those terms is about as strong as Iraq's was to the 9/11 attacks. It is, afterall, and as the bombers Amazon reading list makes clear, very easy to become a "home-grown" terrorist/bomber, flying under any flag you so wish, with no need to go looking to Al Qaida. But no doubt it massages their egos to claim so. Seizing on Islam as the central factor in this one, as is certain to happen, might be a little short sighted. Feel free to exterminate who you wish though, Dushan. Bomb Chechnya is it?
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Old 19th Apr 2013, 20:08
  #470 (permalink)  
 
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Mountain Bear
What I see is more stupidity. We Americans do not know any other way to deal with a show of force except with a bigger show of force. This strategy already got us into an enormousness amount of trouble in Iraq and Afghanistan and has practically bankrupted the country, as it did with Rome and her ruinous wars. It is a strategy that is also doomed to long-run failure because the increasing sophistication of deadly technology and the wide-spread dissemination of information means that sooner rather than later the nightmare scenario of a crazy with a small-scale nuclear bomb is going to happen. Then want? Are we going to respond with a bigger show of force by nuking the whole city? The end game of always upping the ante is always destruction of everything.

Our American paranoia is driven by the impossible goal of risk minimization. The honest answer is that a hostage stand-off or even another 20 people killed while a small scale tactical force hunt this guy down is the better alternative than a shaken city living in fear. We need to stop working harder and begin to work smarter. I know, I know, that isn't any fun. Drama drives page views and gives little men raging hard-ons. Yet for those who are interested in genuine security as opposed to security theater the best answer to this type of situations is deescalation and short-run risk maximization.
Uh, this isn't about war, or special ops vs nuclear exchanges, or some guy out in the woods. It's about an armed and dangerous fugitive in the middle of a populated, residential area where he could be anywhere. You have to go door to door, and that takes manpower unless you want it to take a week. If you're in one of those houses, you want cops to show up and clear the place. What's your suggestion....Andy and Barney in a patrol car? An English bobby with a pleasant disposition? It' not about the freakin guns or putting on a macho front, it's about searching and securing as many structures and square yards and hiding places in as little time as possible because there are civilians there.

Jesus, it's not rocket surgery, and no, it's better to have part of a city buttoned down for awhile while it's searched than have 20 extra dead people because you didn't do your utmost to prevent some wackjob nutter doing worse than he already has. Nobody in his right mind conciously allows the chance for someone to go on a killing spree in the name of some nebulous idea you "shouldn't scare the city".

Last edited by PukinDog; 19th Apr 2013 at 20:18.
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Old 19th Apr 2013, 20:09
  #471 (permalink)  
 
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The police helicopter has diverted to refuel now that it's beginning to rain.

I'm surprised that they haven't got a spare aircraft ready to take over top cover for such a high profile manhunt.
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Old 19th Apr 2013, 20:11
  #472 (permalink)  
 
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"But today's media is scoop crazy, just as the newspapers of old were before the age of 'media'."

Agree.

And Agree with this as well

"All any law enforcement agency in the US, including the FBI, can do is only remove the media from a certain area/s."

So you use the second to achieve the first.

One thing the media doesn't like doing is "missing out"
and if they "miss out" on a briefing, all Police just not
talk to them, they will not like it.

I know they can get the info very quickly from other places
but they will get the message and hopefully tow the line.
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Old 19th Apr 2013, 20:18
  #473 (permalink)  
 
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Time to calm down and let the FBI continue their background work.

This single 19 YO is scared as hell now and damn lonely as well. He is like a wounded cat, no desire to kill if not approached. Eventually he will seek out some past friends to get it over with.

I say pull the armed forces off the street.
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Old 19th Apr 2013, 20:26
  #474 (permalink)  
 
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"square yards and hiding places in as little time as possible because there are civilians there."

Where is all the pressure coming from? What is this "little time as possible" of which you speak. Who cares if it takes one week or one year? It took us ten years to get OBL. We got him.

All this jazz about "risk minimization" and "little time as possible" is merely artificial constraints imposed for no other reason that to create fear and stress. As far as see it, that is exactly the same thing terrorists themselves do. Personally, I find our over-the-top response more terrifying than the initial terrorist event.
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Old 19th Apr 2013, 20:29
  #475 (permalink)  
 
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The FBI believe that the 19yr old perp has made contact with a friend. They've issued instructions to the local and state police that the two guys are to be "taken down" if they attempt to get into the Honda(?) vehicle at the back of the building. They are to be allowed to approach the vehicle, but the vehicle must not move anywhere.

That appears to be the planned endgame at the moment, but it's not clear whether the perp is playing the game by the man's rules.
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Old 19th Apr 2013, 20:33
  #476 (permalink)  

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One thing the media doesn't like doing is "missing out"
and if they "miss out" on a briefing, all Police just not
talk to them, they will not like it.
You can frame that and hang it on the wall.

All my answers to the media when I was with the Marshal Service was two words. "No comment."

But in my experience with the media and law enforcment, somebody on the law enforcement side will 'leak' information. The fact that as of right now I've not heard any 'leaked' information, impresses me a lot. Someone has put the fear of God into all those taking part of the search.


As for those posting that the manpower involved in this search is too much, obviously has zero experience with hunting down a suspect/s. You use as much massive force as possible, the back-up, back-up teams, have back-up teams.

The days of the 'Raj' sending a single red coated officer to put down a uprising of natives or a single Texas Ranger to end a riot, are over.

Last edited by con-pilot; 19th Apr 2013 at 20:34.
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Old 19th Apr 2013, 20:35
  #477 (permalink)  
 
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Mountain Bear
Where is all the pressure coming from? What is this "little time as possible" of which you speak. Who cares if it takes one week or one year? It took us ten years to get OBL. We got him.

All this jazz about "risk minimization" and "little time as possible" is merely artificial constraints imposed for no other reason that to create fear and stress. As far as see it, that is exactly the same thing terrorists themselves do. Personally, I find our over-the-top response more terrifying than the initial terrorist event.
It's not artificial contraints, you have people..kids, grammys, whoever, who were asleep in their beds when this all went down and he disappeared in the area and are holed up in their homes until the police come knock. It's a densely-populated area. It's not some guy at large up in the mountains in a cave like OBL. Every one of those people is a potential hostage or murder victim. These are police doing their jobs protecting the immediate public, not a military operation out to kill the guy despite what you think it looks like. He's not a deer in the forest where nothing else is at risk if you take your time stalking him.

Edit: I just remembered, you said those people were expendable. I don't guess you'll be applying to be a cop anywhere anytime soon. You may have a problem with what the job description and responsibilities entail.

Last edited by PukinDog; 19th Apr 2013 at 20:41.
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Old 19th Apr 2013, 20:37
  #478 (permalink)  
 
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"But in my experience with the media and law enforcment, somebody on the law enforcement side will 'leak' information. The fact that as of right now I've not heard any 'leaked' information, impresses me a lot. Someone has put the fear of God into all those taking part of the search."

I would say the FBI because of he BS that went on in day one and two.

Wasn't it them who said "only one source of information" or something
along those lines which I totally agree with.
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Old 19th Apr 2013, 20:38
  #479 (permalink)  
 
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Mountain Bear

Who cares if it takes one week or one year?
Hmm, this man is suspected of bombing the Boston marathon and you suggest we can leave him on the run?

that makes no sense at all.
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Old 19th Apr 2013, 20:41
  #480 (permalink)  
 
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It's not artificial contraints, you have people..kids, grammys, whoever, who were asleep in their beds when this all went down and he disappeared in the area and are holed up in their homes until the police come knock.
So what?

It's a densely-populated area
So what?

Every one of those people is a potential hostage or murder victim
So what?

These are police doing their jobs protecting the immediate public, not a military operation out to kill the guy despite what you think it looks like.
The military is present. That makes it a military operation, no matter what you might think.

edit: Here is a link that quite clearly identifies that the military is involved.

Boston police search neighborhood, National Guard called out | News OK

I it simply delusional to suggest that the Boston police force has enough manpower to shut down the city without the aid of the military.

Last edited by MountainBear; 19th Apr 2013 at 20:48.
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