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War in Australia (any Oz Politics): the Original

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War in Australia (any Oz Politics): the Original

Old 1st Feb 2015, 11:45
  #16081 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: BNE, Australia
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Originally Posted by parabellum View Post
I'm talking about economic migrants from the Middle East who have large extended families but no useful qualifications and had they had a genuine reason to become refugees they would have come direct, complete with papers, and not risked their lives and tens of thousands of dollars to arrive on a leaky boat, sans papers. But you knew that, didn't you Worrals?
This gets brought up over and over again.

I can't confirm or deny the existence of these supposed economic migrants, but realistically, how much would they really costing the country? I haven't seen anything concrete - only hearsay, "my wife's friend works at Centrelink and contributed to an article in Ackerman's blog"-type gossip which is designed to rile up the neo-cons and bring in ad revenue, ultimately.

How much are they claiming, really?

It doesn't just "add up over time". Our deficit is measured in billions and shutting the door in the face of "Middle-Eastern migrants" because, let's face it, their culture makes you feel a bit uncomfortable, is going to do sweet-FA to treat the cause of that problem.

Welfare payments are not even our largest expense, and Centrelink payments of the kind that economic migrants allegedly abuse are not the largest portion of welfare expenditure - the aged pension is, by a long shot.

Can we stop pretending so-called economic migrants are the cause of the country's woes? All-in-all it's a drop in the ocean compared to say, the revenue the government doesn't generate because our tax system needs reform, but for some reason that doesn't garner nearly as much fervour in this thread
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Old 1st Feb 2015, 12:14
  #16082 (permalink)  
 
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as you know, a 457 visa is not easily come by if the rules are followed, there has been abuse but that is pretty much stopped now,
No, I don't know that. It conflicts with what I'm seeing in the field, i.e. more foreign tradies with limited English, working for sub-sub-sub contractors and disappearing like Boojums on a weekly basis once they've cocked everything up royally.
I'm also seeing a growing number of ethnic looking people in basic jobs, such as catering and cleaning. They seem to stick around longer than a week and some of them are re-appearing in (relatively) posher positions. IMO that's a good thing, and a big part of what built (and continues to build) Australia.

As for the bludging reffos, I'm sure they're around but they're not working, so I don't see them at work. Same with the third generation inbred ferals in the satellite hamlets around SEQ. Dunno what we do with them, but any policy wrt starving them out invariably impacts on genuine refugees/out of work people. This is where public policy on unemployment stops being red or blue and gets very grey .

Not everyone who is out of work wants to be on the dole. Not by a very long shot. Queensland's job market has become very dire and getting laid off is terrifying, even for relatively well qualified, can do people. The government flooding the market with ex Qld public servants didn't help that at all; God help you if you are out of work and qualified in a vaguely government field such as admin or training; there are fifty ex public servants with lots of qualifications standing in the same queue. There is also less unskilled work around; ten years ago anyone with a pulse could get work in Brisbane as a cleaner, security guard or doing traffic control. Today, there are waiting lists and many applicants per job, even for crappy stuff.

From what I hear many of the truly dodgy economic migrants (or 'students', doing a Bachelor of Fruit Picking ) are working strictly cash cleaning, labouring, picking or in ethnic F&B. In a way, they're probably doing better than out of work locals.

If you want to hunt down illegal immigrants I'll not argue with you. Trust me, you know I mean that. Guess who outs them? That's right, the Australian Public Service; the very same 'hated' government employees who are being cut in the name of efficiency by the current federal government.

Of course they were also cut to ribbons (more quietly) by the Rudd/Gillard government and the Howard government (even more quietly) before that, because as rh200 pointed out earlier 'everyone' hates public servants. It always amuses me when people who espouse reductions in public service spending use the same forum to express their concerns about enforcement issues such as illegal immigrants, visa scams and centrelink rorts. For all the claims of efficiency by both sides of politics, the end result is always less about cutting BS agencies and more about cutting frontline workers in enforcement; they're not as good at grovelling. All the public hears is 'efficiency'. They never ask what services are actually getting cut, and what's not getting investigated/prosecuted in the name of efficiency.

Last edited by Worrals in the wilds; 1st Feb 2015 at 12:40.
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Old 1st Feb 2015, 21:29
  #16083 (permalink)  
 
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Anyone like to predict what the reaction of us rusted-on Right Wingers will be here and on similar sites this afternoon after Tony Abbott's make or break speech? My prediction, for what it's worth, will be: "I'm totally underwhelmed, Tony. Too little, too late, and what you said was not what I was hoping for."

I can't tell you how much I hope I have to eat a massive dose of crow.
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Old 1st Feb 2015, 22:54
  #16084 (permalink)  
 
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Is it a side effect of the modern era? 24 hour news, mixed with the advent of social media, mixed with politicians no longer being able to make a decision? Since the Rudd government it seems to have changed. I'm sure many americans would say similar things about Obama. No party seems to have a theory of government anymore. They have an idea, do some internal polling, a few focus groups and then discard it with the rest of the ideas that went through the same process.

If you don't have an idea or a theory on how you should govern your nothing more than s sports team that the rusted on faithful will support but everyone else will have left you behind. These times just give more ammunition to borderline anarchists a-holes (like myself) that you should always aim for the smallest amount of government we can. A hamstrung, slow moving government is one we can all love.
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Old 2nd Feb 2015, 00:00
  #16085 (permalink)  
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Can we stop pretending so-called economic migrants are the cause of the country's woes? All-in-all it's a drop in the ocean compared to say, the revenue the government doesn't generate because our tax system needs reform, but for some reason that doesn't garner nearly as much fervour in this thread
Chuboy - My main beef about the illegal boat arrivals is not so much their presence or what they take out of the system but if you, (and better still, SHY, Milne, Rintoul etc.), were to go to the UNHCR camps in the Sudan, Kenya, Somalia, Pakistan etc. you would see REAL refugees who are fleeing for their life and not the fat and happy bunch that used to regularly show up on boats going to Christmas Island who not only didn't qualify but who gained entry by default and then delayed the arrival of the genuine refugees, some of whom have been in the camps for a number of years. These illegals do breed like rabbits and will, if current evidence is anything to go by, generate a serious security problem:
let's face it, their culture makes you feel a bit uncomfortable, is going to do sweet-FA to treat the cause of that problem.
No, their culture makes me feel very uncomfortable, not just 'a bit', but that is something your generation and your children will experience and have to endure or cure. Old goats like myself have long retired, moved to the sticks and will, in all probability, have shuffled off before the situation becomes critical.

Worrals:
It always amuses me when people who espouse reductions in public service spending use the same forum to express their concerns about enforcement issues such as illegal immigrants, visa scams and centrelink rorts. For all the claims of efficiency by both sides of politics, the end result is always less about cutting BS agencies and more about cutting frontline workers in enforcement; they're not as good at grovelling. All the public hears is 'efficiency'. They never ask what services are actually getting cut, and what's not getting investigated/prosecuted in the name of efficiency.
Agreed, somehow the complete wastes of space seem to survive at the expense of the valuable employees.
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Old 2nd Feb 2015, 00:13
  #16086 (permalink)  
 
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Is it a side effect of the modern era? 24 hour news, mixed with the advent of social media, mixed with politicians no longer being able to make a decision?
Maybe. I think pollies across the English speaking world currently spend far too much time worrying about what the media thinks of them, and far too little time considering what the electorate thinks of them. They seem to forget that the media doesn't vote them in or out of power, the electorate does.

Adding to the problem is the increasing disconnect between the mainstream media's opinion and the public's opinion; they are becoming two very different things.
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Old 2nd Feb 2015, 00:27
  #16087 (permalink)  
 
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A minor rant

I don't know if the ABC are aware that not everyone thinks Greste was treated badly, but for them, the ABC, to spend the whole of the ABC24 11:00am news this morning interviewing every known member of his family is absolute garbage. Good job we don't have to pay a licence fee here, because I for one would not be paying it to support a bunch of w*nkers.

Hey ABC, there was an election in Queensland over the weekend. Just in case you hadn't noticed.
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Old 2nd Feb 2015, 01:56
  #16088 (permalink)  
 
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You should get one of those remotes that have the change channel function Miss CC.
meanwhile 7 news reporting that Turnbull's valet is polishing his best brogues.
lets face it the Libs aren't going anywhere with Dum Dum at the helm.
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Old 2nd Feb 2015, 02:00
  #16089 (permalink)  
 
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They seem to forget that the media doesn't vote them in or out of power, the electorate does.
The view the public have is as a result of the media, the average punter will never meet or have any idea of their local member.

They form there opinion from there social/ work group and the media.

Adding to the problem is the increasing disconnect between the mainstream media's opinion and the public's opinion; they are becoming two very different things.
Not sure I agree, you would have to give me some examples. But regardless, the two don't have to agree. The media presents the information in a way they think will achieve an objective, then its up to the public how they interpret it.
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Old 2nd Feb 2015, 03:03
  #16090 (permalink)  
 
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Just watched Tony Abbott's speech to the NPC. In my opinion, with that speech, he has come up with the worst possible result for the Libs - just good enough to (possibly) cling on to the job, but no 'killer' announcement that was a game changer. So he'll hang in, the backbench (and voter) discontent will continue to boil and a spill for the leadership is still very much on the cards.

Labor and 95% of the journalists in that room will be very happy with the outcome.

Only four or five instances of his annoying habit of repeating a phrase while he gathers his thoughts. He must have been briefed to avoid that, but he didn't quite manage to.
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Old 2nd Feb 2015, 03:31
  #16091 (permalink)  
 
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Ethel,

Your political notions and opinions aside, can you please stop referring to our Prime Minisiter as "Dum Dum." Maybe its just me, but I wouldn't find that appropriate when talking about anyone, let alone the Prime Minister of our country.

Have whatever opinions you wan't, you don't have to be a rude jerk about it though.
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Old 2nd Feb 2015, 03:46
  #16092 (permalink)  
 
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but no 'killer' announcement that was a game changer
Just what sort of killer announcement where you after? I quit!
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Old 2nd Feb 2015, 03:48
  #16093 (permalink)  
 
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Your political notions and opinions aside, can you please stop referring to our Prime Minisiter as "Dum Dum." Maybe its just me, but I wouldn't find that appropriate when talking about anyone, let alone the Prime Minister of our country.
I also take it you disapprove of calling JG a "witch", and greens members as "oxygen thieves" which has been written on this forum. And while we're talking about inappropriate comments about people, could the PM please not refer to the electors in Victoria and QLD as "absentminded" for not electing Coalition governments?
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Old 2nd Feb 2015, 04:07
  #16094 (permalink)  
 
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Just what sort of killer announcement where you after?
I think many conservative voters feel that he had to change voters' negative perceptions of him with that speech. I don't know that he did no.

A 'killer announcement' might have done it. He asked people to stick with 'steady as she goes'. With that speech, he might have offered just enough to hold off a leadership change, but 'just' is the operative word there. In my opinion, he's still in deep trouble.

If the NSW State election doesn't go well for the Libs... Well, on past performance, the Federal Libs will stay firmly on that Egyptian scuba holiday they've been on for the last 12 months or more - "deep in de Nile".
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Old 2nd Feb 2015, 04:16
  #16095 (permalink)  
 
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Worrals ..... wasn't Rudd, or Krudd if we are to lower ourselves to Ethel's level, responsible for a whole heap of Qld. public servants getting the bullet before he went on to better things as a Federal Labour M.P. ?
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Old 2nd Feb 2015, 05:05
  #16096 (permalink)  
 
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If the right honourable T. Abbotomy (formally known as Dum Dum) carries on as per normal does that still mean endless policy announcements only for them to be dropped a few months later?
I loved the bit where he now won't be involved in choosing the Knighthood recipients. well that's that debacle fixed then!!
Malcolm is their only saviour I am afraid
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Old 2nd Feb 2015, 05:20
  #16097 (permalink)  
 
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Annastacia Palaszczuk ..... graduated from London School of Economics with degrees in Arts and Law and graduate diploma of legal practice from the Australian National University. Then worked for various ministers in Qld labour Governments as a 'political advisor' before being elected to her Father's old electorate after his retirement. Yet another "Socialist" who has never done a real days work and will never ever produce anything worthwhile for the common good until she gets buried and turns into fertiliser.
And before Ethel comes calling with his/her usual drivel I reckon the Liberal side is equally rubbish as well.
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Old 2nd Feb 2015, 05:54
  #16098 (permalink)  
 
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Glad to see you are willing to give the new Queensland premier a bit of a go Boz.
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Old 2nd Feb 2015, 06:19
  #16099 (permalink)  
 
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I like to see both sides, as you do Ethel. Smiley !


P.s. Joking apart, as she was one of only ... was it 7 Labour M.P.s..... when Newman got in do you think she will last long before it all goes pear shaped and older "more experienced" members start sharpening the Labour knives.
Perhaps Worrals could fill us all in with her opinion of that.
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Old 2nd Feb 2015, 07:30
  #16100 (permalink)  
 
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You would think after returning from a 3 year stint of unemployment, "more experienced" MPs would not be silly enough to try and depose their leader for a shot at the top job.

Having said that, in light of what is happening federally at present, perhaps K-Rudd and JG simply broke the ice and set a precedent for leadership musical chairs, which we can now expect as a regular act in the circus program we call Australian politics
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