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War in Australia (any Oz Politics): the Original

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War in Australia (any Oz Politics): the Original

Old 9th Nov 2018, 11:29
  #20041 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
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Originally Posted by Hempy View Post
Imagine what things would have been like if he could have easily got his hands on a high powered semi-automatic rifle
Or, if any passerby could have.

Police showed a lot more patience than I would have.
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Old 9th Nov 2018, 12:12
  #20042 (permalink)  
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Reported just now...from Somalia. And yelling, you can guess, as he was stabbing people.

How come these people are always "known to the police" after they carry out an attack. If he was "known to police" and on a terror watch list, why was he not on the first aircraft out of Australia?

Last edited by SOPS; 9th Nov 2018 at 12:27.
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Old 9th Nov 2018, 14:28
  #20043 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by layman View Post
Given they made many attempts to capture him, I wonder if they considered, or even had available, tasers or mace or similar?
Yes to both.
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Old 9th Nov 2018, 14:32
  #20044 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by SOPS View Post
Reported just now...from Somalia. And yelling, you can guess, as he was stabbing people.

How come these people are always "known to the police" after they carry out an attack. If he was "known to police" and on a terror watch list, why was he not on the first aircraft out of Australia?
Because the misguided default position engendered by the likes of the AAT is to demand that everyone has some sort of right to be allowed here, be given legal aid to fight removal and change Australian culture and values to suit their minority.
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Old 9th Nov 2018, 22:02
  #20045 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Hempy View Post
Imagine what things would have been like if he could have easily got his hands on a high powered semi-automatic rifle
If the offender wasn't a muslim import nutjob there would have been an even better result.
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Old 10th Nov 2018, 00:50
  #20046 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by layman View Post
Given they made many attempts to capture him, I wonder if they considered, or even had available, tasers or mace or similar? Captured terrorist perpetrators are often useful sources of intelligence.
It is worth remembering that the police who responded were just general duties police on the beat in the area. They did an excellent job considering their purview. From their point of view they were just dealing with a disturbance caused by a deranged man, I doubt they approach every ranting lunatic waving a knife as though they are interrupting a terrorist attack in progress.

I am proud of the job they did, attempting to subdue first without firearms, and then a single clean shot when things started to deteriorate. In the States I can imagine it could have easily ended up a spray-and-pray with civilians caught in the crossfire.
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Old 10th Nov 2018, 02:16
  #20047 (permalink)  
 
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" In the States I can imagine it could have easily ended up a spray-and-pray with civilians caught in the crossfire."

Really?

Lindt Cafe siege refers.
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Old 10th Nov 2018, 04:06
  #20048 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by currawong View Post
" In the States I can imagine it could have easily ended up a spray-and-pray with civilians caught in the crossfire."

Really?

Lindt Cafe siege refers.
That was, rightfully, subject to quite some criticism indeed - especially since it was the special response team and not your run of the mill beat cops who ended up wounding the hostages.

It turns out the chap who fired the only bullet yesterday was only three months out of the academy. A job well done.
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Old 10th Nov 2018, 06:25
  #20049 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by chuboy View Post
That was, rightfully, subject to quite some criticism indeed - especially since it was the special response team and not your run of the mill beat cops who ended up wounding the hostages.

It turns out the chap who fired the only bullet yesterday was only three months out of the academy. A job well done.
And also well done to the two or three blokes who waded into the fracas.
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Old 10th Nov 2018, 10:14
  #20050 (permalink)  
 
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One report mentioned that he was tasered before being shot.
If true, then the tasering had no visible effect.
Perhaps because of clothing worn.
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Old 10th Nov 2018, 11:40
  #20051 (permalink)  
 
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"A job well done."

Hear hear!

It is not that long ago Victorian Police posed quite a threat to themselves and colleagues when it came to weapons handling.

And a big well done to the passers-by that armed themselves with whatever came to hand to assist. Something of a renaissance, I hope.

Last edited by currawong; 11th Nov 2018 at 06:39.
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Old 10th Nov 2018, 13:43
  #20052 (permalink)  
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And i keep being confused...why are we letting these people in to our country in the first place? Try to immigrated to Japan as a Muslim...wont happen. How many refugees have he UAE taken from Syria , Somalia ...name your country...the answer is none.
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Old 10th Nov 2018, 14:07
  #20053 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by SOPS View Post
And i keep being confused...why are we letting these people in to our country in the first place? Try to immigrated to Japan as a Muslim...wont happen. How many refugees have he UAE taken from Syria , Somalia ...name your country...the answer is none.
Nearly all of "these" people are fine law abiding citizens, happy to have an opportunity for a new life. Remember, it is the exceptions that prove the rule.
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Old 10th Nov 2018, 21:46
  #20054 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Eddie Dean View Post
Nearly all of "these" people are fine law abiding citizens, happy to have an opportunity for a new life. Remember, it is the exceptions that prove the rule.
So the REASON that we are taking Somali refugees is "because most of them are not murderous extremists intent on changing our social values or killing us if we decline to accede to their demands."
Thanks for that, now I understand.
But could you be a bit more specific, what percentage does "nearly all" represent.

Funny thing is, when taking immigrants of any ilk, I thought that you had an option to choose.

To paraphrase Ricardian's latest contribution to "Friday Jokes";

He's making a list,
And checking it twice;
Gonna find out Who's naughty and nice.
Santa Claus is in contravention of the U.N.'s 1967 refugee protocol to which Australia is a signatory.

Last edited by WingNut60; 10th Nov 2018 at 22:00.
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Old 11th Nov 2018, 01:27
  #20055 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by WingNut60 View Post
Funny thing is, when taking immigrants of any ilk, I thought that you had an option to choose.
He came into the country at around 10 years old (from news article, born 1988, emmirated 90s). If your prognostic abilities can pinpoint which ten-year-old will become a criminal when he grows up, we will be able to save a lot on policing.

I noticed that most muslim radicals were either born in Australia or came as a young child. That means that it doesn't matter who or whether you let anyone in or not, the trouble is home grown. In fact we are now seeing the mirror image issue in the radicalisation of young white males attempting to take hold of mainstream society during the recent Young Nationals resignations.

And before anyone suggests that the latter group is not going to start terrorist attacks, those events happen in the US (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terror...nti-government) and even Norway (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_N...eligious_views)

The common thread is not what religion you are, nor which side of the political spectrum you are on. It is extremism and radicalisation. It is demonization of the other side. And if you fall into the trap of thinking that way, while you may not start an incident yourself, the enspousing of your views may push a mentally unstable person into action, and the normalization of such views can lead to national atrocities (eg Germany during WW2).
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Old 11th Nov 2018, 01:40
  #20056 (permalink)  
 
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"the enspousing of your views may push a mentally unstable person into action"

So the real problem is free speech?
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Old 11th Nov 2018, 01:42
  #20057 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by cee cee View Post
He came into the country at around 10 years old (from news article, born 1988, emmirated 90s). If your prognostic abilities can pinpoint which ten-year-old will become a criminal when he grows up, we will be able to save a lot on policing.

I noticed that most muslim radicals were either born in Australia or came as a young child. That means that it doesn't matter who or whether you let anyone in or not, the trouble is home grown. In fact we are now seeing the mirror image issue in the radicalisation of young white males attempting to take hold of mainstream society during the recent Young Nationals resignations.

And before anyone suggests that the latter group is not going to start terrorist attacks, those events happen in the US (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terror...nti-government) and even Norway (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_N...eligious_views)

The common thread is not what religion you are, nor which side of the political spectrum you are on. It is extremism and radicalisation. It is demonization of the other side. And if you fall into the trap of thinking that way, while you may not start an incident yourself, the enspousing of your views may push a mentally unstable person into action, and the normalization of such views can lead to national atrocities (eg Germany during WW2).
I was not talking at the level of individuals.
The original question from SOPS asked why we are /were taking Somali refugees at all. That is what I also am talking about.

Vietnam, Iraq: we have what I perceive as being a moral obligation to clean up some of the mess to which we contributed.
But Somalia? Really?
What is / was our obligation there?

Last edited by WingNut60; 11th Nov 2018 at 01:55.
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Old 12th Nov 2018, 13:22
  #20058 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
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Originally Posted by currawong View Post
"the enspousing of your views may push a mentally unstable person into action"

So the real problem is free speech?
Not quite so simple. Free speech is neither absolute nor without limitations or consequences. Otherwise those who are radicalising the current crop of terrorists can claim the same defense.

What I was talking about though was a reflection on our own words and actions that, even if they are true and correct, may cause our own weaker members to stumble. This is actually a Christian pinciple Paul talked about in 1 Cor 8, applied to a different issue pertinent to that time.
" Be careful, however, that the exercise of your rights does not become a stumbling block to the weak. " 1 Cor 8:9

I am not saying that all discussions on the background of the terrorists and their motivations are taboo. I agree that in some circumstances (but not generally), political correctness has gone too far. But to me, there is no difference between a white preacher or MP on his pulpit/platform claming Islam is a religion of violence vs imans saying that Australians/Americans are terrorists/murderers. Both statements are arguably true in some sense, but both will become stumbling blocks to the weak in each group.
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Old 12th Nov 2018, 13:25
  #20059 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by cee cee View Post
Not quite so simple. Free speech is neither absolute nor without limitations or consequences. Otherwise those who are radicalising the current crop of terrorists can claim the same defense.

What I was talking about though was a reflection on our own words and actions that, even if they are true and correct, may cause our own weaker members to stumble. This is actually a Christian pinciple Paul talked about in 1 Cor 8, applied to a different issue pertinent to that time.
" Be careful, however, that the exercise of your rights does not become a stumbling block to the weak. " 1 Cor 8:9

I am not saying that all discussions on the background of the terrorists and their motivations are taboo. I agree that in some circumstances (but not generally), political correctness has gone too far. But to me, there is no difference between a white preacher or MP on his pulpit/platform claming Islam is a religion of violence vs imans saying that Australians/Americans are terrorists/murderers. Both statements are arguably true in some sense, but both will become stumbling blocks to the weak in each group.
i agree with your sentiments.
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