Jet Blast Topics that don't fit the other forums. Rules of Engagement apply.

Formula 1

Old 10th Sep 2012, 10:18
  #1041 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Essex
Age: 48
Posts: 164
Also another dodgy pitstop for Button too!
maliyahsdad2 is offline  
Old 10th Sep 2012, 12:59
  #1042 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: South of France
Posts: 85
At least Maldonado behaved himself
Fangio is offline  
Old 10th Sep 2012, 13:14
  #1043 (permalink)  
Resident insomniac
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: N54 58 34 W02 01 21
Age: 74
Posts: 1,859
From what I saw I don't think Vettel deserved the drive through penalty.
What do you expect when it involves a Ferrari at Monza?
G-CPTN is online now  
Old 10th Sep 2012, 16:36
  #1044 (permalink)  

Coppula eam se non posit acceptera jocularum
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Northumberland, UK
Age: 56
Posts: 293
Ironic how the Monza podium was made up of the three eliminated at the first corner in Spa.

Perez was superb.
Evening Star is offline  
Old 10th Sep 2012, 18:13
  #1045 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: IRS NAV ONLY
Posts: 789
Originally Posted by G-CPTN
What do you expect when it involves a Ferrari at Monza?
One wouldn't be too much surprised even if they would have black flagged him - given everything Ferrari International Association has done recently

By the way, why don't they just put two alternators on Renault engines? I've glanced over F1 Technical Regulation and there is nothing prohibiting multiple alternators. Second alternator would be just separated by a clutch (could be an electrical one, controlled by primary alternator), which would engage in case of failure of primary alternator. I know additional weight comes with a performance penalty, but my opinion is - losing 0,002 s per lap is better than failing to finish 2 races in a single season due to single system failure
FlyingStone is online now  
Old 10th Sep 2012, 18:32
  #1046 (permalink)  
Tabs please !
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Biffins Bridge
Posts: 702
One Ppruner is very well connected in F1 as he sells lumps of very heavy exotic metal ballast to a range of constructors. The weight of a second alternator could easily be shaved off some of the parts that are added to a car to bring it up to the legal minimum weight. The same goes for a second fuel pump, oil pump, hydraulic pump etc.
B Fraser is offline  
Old 10th Sep 2012, 18:53
  #1047 (permalink)  
Resident insomniac
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: N54 58 34 W02 01 21
Age: 74
Posts: 1,859
The weight of a second alternator could easily be shaved off some of the parts that are added to a car to bring it up to the legal minimum weight. The same goes for a second fuel pump, oil pump, hydraulic pump etc.
If you issue the specification for a part you expect it to achieve that as a minimum.

Where do you stop?

The location of the ballast is as important as the quantity.
G-CPTN is online now  
Old 10th Sep 2012, 18:55
  #1048 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: The Land of Beer and Chocolate
Age: 51
Posts: 794
The problem with that is that it means weight that cannot be put in the optimum place to suit the characteristics needed for a specific track.

And, in other news, we have some good stuff. Robert Kubica competed in his first "race" since his accident last year, winning the Ronde Gomitolo di Lana rally in Italy by over a minute.
hellsbrink is offline  
Old 10th Sep 2012, 21:21
  #1049 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: South Oxfordshire
Posts: 594
Forget duplex alternators. Fix the problem with the single one. No-one else seems to be having the same trouble and it's not like Red Bull are clueless about engines, or hard up for cash for that matter.
Blues&twos is online now  
Old 10th Sep 2012, 21:55
  #1050 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: The Land of Beer and Chocolate
Age: 51
Posts: 794
But isn't that a Renault part and not a Red Bull one? Since other Renault supplied teams don't seem to have the same issue, I wonder if cooling due to Adrian Newey's famous "tight" design style may be a factor, but it doesn't explain why Webber had no issues.

But why would a dodgy alternator lead to the call from Horner to stop immediately to "save the engine", as we heard on the broadcast?
hellsbrink is offline  
Old 10th Sep 2012, 22:06
  #1051 (permalink)  
Resident insomniac
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: N54 58 34 W02 01 21
Age: 74
Posts: 1,859
Renault do not manufacture the alternator (although they have design responsibility of course as it is supplied as part of the engine). I believe it is a Magneti Marelli part.

Mark Webber's alternator attached to the Renault engine on his RB7 survived the Italian Formula One Grand Prix because it was an "older" specification.
That is the claim of Red Bull's Dr. Helmut Marko, after reigning World Champion Sebastian Vettel on Sunday suffered a repeat of his Saturday morning failure and failed to finish at Monza.
"The part was from the latest specification (of alternator) that came after the similar failure in Valencia," Marko is quoted by Salzburger Nachrichten.
"Webber had an alternator from an older specification that had no problem," said the Austrian.
Germany's Auto Motor und Sport said engine supplier Renault, whose supply partner for the alternator is Magneti Marelli, is treating the problem as a priority.
From:- F1 : Old version alternator on Formula 1 car worked well for Webber at Monza
G-CPTN is online now  
Old 11th Sep 2012, 08:21
  #1052 (permalink)  

More than just an ATCO
 
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: Up someone's nose
Age: 70
Posts: 1,770
Magneti Marelli, surely a co-incidence that there's a Ferrari shown as a company official?
Lon More is offline  
Old 11th Sep 2012, 08:51
  #1053 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Queen of The Moorlands
Posts: 99
The problem with that is that it means weight that cannot be put in the optimum place to suit the characteristics needed for a specific track.
You can't just chuck ballast weight on willy nilly to suit tracks or ride heights etc anyway. As with everything F1 there are rules for that sort of thing.

Beef - Perhaps your mate should consider sponsoring Grosjean and Maldonado, got to be good for business the way they scatter car parts all over the oche.
Alloa Akbar is offline  
Old 11th Sep 2012, 09:13
  #1054 (permalink)  
Tabs please !
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Biffins Bridge
Posts: 702
He did tell me that the cash register started smoking when the first corner incident happened at Spa

G-CPTN The location of the ballast is as important as the quantity.
Absolutely right but it becomes a bit academic when you have your driver waving to the fans having suffered a broken pump, alternator, gizmo etc. It has cost you millions to bring the team to the track with guests, sponsors etc who won't be seeing "their boy" on the podium.

There has to be a sensible limit on 1 + 1 redundancy but a study of where single points of failure have stopped a car would be an interesting exercise. Alternators, hydraulic pumps, ignition coils, water pumps, oil pumps, ECUs etc would be a good place to start.
B Fraser is offline  
Old 11th Sep 2012, 09:30
  #1055 (permalink)  
Resident insomniac
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: N54 58 34 W02 01 21
Age: 74
Posts: 1,859
My son (who works in IT) has to consider redundancy to cater for possible failures so that critical networks can continue to operate (think 999 telephone system).
G-CPTN is online now  
Old 11th Sep 2012, 09:57
  #1056 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Queen of The Moorlands
Posts: 99
Redundancy in Race cars is a bit like redundancy in Helicopters - There's a trade off. Telemetry saves cost as well as kit. Look at RBR, what did they actually lose by retiring the car? a couple of points? No big deal really.. SV's attitude after the race said it all, he did everything except yawn when considering the implication of retirement.
Alloa Akbar is offline  
Old 11th Sep 2012, 10:02
  #1057 (permalink)  
More bang for your buck
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: land of the clanger
Age: 77
Posts: 3,511
For those interested, Tues 11/9 9pm - 10pm BBC4 (it's a Repeat)


Grand Prix: The Killer Years



About this programme

Documentary exploring the dangerous aspects of Formula 1 racing and the deaths that occurred at Grands Prix during the 1960s and early 70s. The film examines the boycotts organised by drivers and the lengthy battle they fought to achieve improvements in safety standards. Featuring contributions by three-time world champion Jackie Stewart, who was a leading campaigner for increases in the sport's safety, double champion Emerson Fittipaldi and John Surtees, who won titles on two and four wheels.

Last edited by green granite; 11th Sep 2012 at 10:02.
green granite is offline  
Old 11th Sep 2012, 10:42
  #1058 (permalink)  

Coppula eam se non posit acceptera jocularum
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Northumberland, UK
Age: 56
Posts: 293
Originally Posted by G-CPTN View Post
Mark Webber's alternator attached to the Renault engine on his RB7 survived the Italian Formula One Grand Prix because it was an "older" specification.]
"Number two driver" gets the older, apparently more reliable, part. Webber must have smiled inwardly at that .
Evening Star is offline  
Old 11th Sep 2012, 10:50
  #1059 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: on the beach
Posts: 359
...older, more reliable part.




Okaay - bags I the Lotus 49 - you can have the Caterham Seven

Last edited by mike-wsm; 11th Sep 2012 at 11:01. Reason: add pic
mike-wsm is offline  
Old 11th Sep 2012, 11:31
  #1060 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Queen of The Moorlands
Posts: 99
Older is better..

Mike, I'll see your Lotus 49 and raise you a Joan!

Alloa Akbar is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us Archive Advertising Cookie Policy Privacy Statement Terms of Service

Copyright 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.