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Old 17th Nov 2021, 07:54
  #10401 (permalink)  
 
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I’m not saying Lewis should have yielded and braked more, stayed on track and lost the position and time.
I was suggesting he could have done, and if he had have done and stayed on the track, perhaps that would have been the argument they needed that Max gained a lasting advantage by going off the circuit.

I think had it been the case, he’d have had to give the place up or suffer a penalty. I think it is only because Lewis went off too, that swung it just in favour of the “let them race” philosophy and a racing incident rather than a breach of the rules.
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Old 17th Nov 2021, 09:32
  #10402 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by LlamaFarmer View Post
So Max’s onboard footage from the T4 incident has been released.

I was surprised by what it revealed, I expected him to turn in then open up the wheel, to push Lewis wide.
What it actually shows is he turned tighter and tighter into the corner, but started turning later than he probably should have.
That's one interpretation. Another is that it shows Max made no attempt to turn in to the apex (which is his right) but also knew that in doing so he would not be able to leave a car's width on his outside for the car that was already alongside/ahead of him (which is NOT allowed). It's almost as blatant as the Nico/Lewis incident in Austria (2016?). SO I don't think there's any doubt this should have earned a penalty. And for fairness it should have been the same penalty that was given to Lewis at Silverstone.

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Old 17th Nov 2021, 09:59
  #10403 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by NutLoose View Post
My gripe is track limits, there should be no “you can exceed the track limits on corners x, y and z”, it should be if you do you get a penalty, these are professional drivers for Christ sake and if they cannot stick within the track limits they shouldn’t be racing. That would then make it fair for everyone and gets rid of the ambiguity.
I can't think of an occasion when the rules have said you can exceed the track limits, but I agree, the penalties for doing so can be quite lame, & poorly applied, sometimes.
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Old 17th Nov 2021, 10:04
  #10404 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by PDR1 View Post
That's one interpretation. Another is that it shows Max made no attempt to turn in to the apex (which is his right) but also knew that in doing so he would not be able to leave a car's width on his outside for the car that was already alongside/ahead of him (which is NOT allowed). It's almost as blatant as the Nico/Lewis incident in Austria (2016?). SO I don't think there's any doubt this should have earned a penalty. And for fairness it should have been the same penalty that was given to Lewis at Silverstone.

PDR
I agree - taken in the wider context of Verstappens usual line through turn 4, albeit not whilst fighting for position, he's so obviously nowhere near in a position to take the corner & stay on track it's laughable. I think the concern that this basically gives him licence to run anyone off the track should they have the temerity to overtake sends a very strange signal for the remaining races. I expect they'll try & tighten the rules for the next race, but, since they weren't applied in Brazil, what's the point?
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Old 17th Nov 2021, 10:04
  #10405 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by alfaman View Post
I can't think of an occasion when the rules have said you can exceed the track limits, but I agree, the penalties for doing so can be quite lame, & poorly applied, sometimes.
Its not that they are allowed to, because they’re not. It’s that exceeding track limits is generally not enforced, unless they specify that it IS enforced.

Just because it’s not an advantage to exceed track limits, doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be enforced.
EVERY lap time should be deleted if the car has left the track, whether it gained them time or not.
EVERY time one exceeds track limits that should be logged on the tally, and the black and white flag shown accordingly for track limits once they reach 3 times in a session.

They can keep it out the wall in Monaco and Baku, therefore they have no excuse for not keeping it on the track at other circuits. If they knew it was enforced at all times, they would make sure to stay on track.

Its even become a joke where drivers deliberately exceed it in the race a few times knowing they can get away with it, and they do it because other drivers are doing it.
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Old 17th Nov 2021, 11:35
  #10406 (permalink)  
 
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Seems to be rather reminiscent of the inaugural Korean Grand Prix in 2010.
https://www.planetf1.com/news/saudi-...te-completion/

Guessing they'll just keep throwing money and manpower at it.
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Old 17th Nov 2021, 12:29
  #10407 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by LlamaFarmer View Post
Its not that they are allowed to, because they’re not. It’s that exceeding track limits is generally not enforced, unless they specify that it IS enforced.

Just because it’s not an advantage to exceed track limits, doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be enforced.
EVERY lap time should be deleted if the car has left the track, whether it gained them time or not.
EVERY time one exceeds track limits that should be logged on the tally, and the black and white flag shown accordingly for track limits once they reach 3 times in a session.

They can keep it out the wall in Monaco and Baku, therefore they have no excuse for not keeping it on the track at other circuits. If they knew it was enforced at all times, they would make sure to stay on track.

Its even become a joke where drivers deliberately exceed it in the race a few times knowing they can get away with it, and they do it because other drivers are doing it.
That was my point, I was replying to this from Nutloose - "there should be no “you can exceed the track limits on corners x, y and z” "- I can't recall any examples when that has been said or done. I agree the rules are sometimes poorly enforced & therefore open to abuse, that's the nature of racing, though. It's up to those administering to apply the rules, which they patently didn't in Brazil, lap 48 turn 4, for cars 33 & 44.

a) A lap time achieved during any practice session, sprint qualifying session or the race by leaving the track on the exit of Turn 4, will result in that lap time being invalidated by the stewards.


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Old 17th Nov 2021, 12:59
  #10408 (permalink)  
 
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these are professional drivers for Christ sake and if they cannot stick within the track limits they shouldn’t be racing.
Up to a point, but they are attempting to go as fast as possible round a track which is changing a little every time hey lap, on tyres which are likewise changing grip while taking the best legal line to keep another car behind them which involves braking cornenig and acceleration in the 4 to 5 G range. Understandably they stray outside the defined limits.

What is not accepatble in the rules is to leave the track deliberately (as judged by the race officials) and gain an advantagge by doing so - which Max undoubtedly did on this occasion. His 'if you try to overtake me I will offer you the option of crashing or backing off' is in need of curbing.
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Old 17th Nov 2021, 14:35
  #10409 (permalink)  
 
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Fitter2, they HAVE to stay inside the defined limits on street circuits like Monaco, Baku, Singapore etc, where there are barriers that will put them out of the session, or at least cost them a lot of time and damage.
They temper their pushing accordingly to ensure they do not suffer the consequences. The better, more skilful drivers are faster, whilst affording that margin. The same should be anywhere, regardless of whether the other side of that white line is a concrete barrier or armco, gravel or grass, astro or asphalt.
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Old 18th Nov 2021, 13:48
  #10410 (permalink)  
 
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Hi LlamaFarmer

I think you reinforce rather than contradict my point. The drivers who hit the barriers on street circuits were trying to stay within track limits and failed. I suspect you can find an example of all of the drivers occasionally hitting hard walls - I can think of an example of each the current top drivers doing so.
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Old 18th Nov 2021, 15:02
  #10411 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Fitter2 View Post
Hi LlamaFarmer

I think you reinforce rather than contradict my point. The drivers who hit the barriers on street circuits were trying to stay within track limits and failed. I suspect you can find an example of all of the drivers occasionally hitting hard walls - I can think of an example of each the current top drivers doing so.
You say it’s understandable, and by extension, acceptable, to occasionally stray outside the limits.

I suggest they stray outside so willingly because there are no consequences for them. You see far more “track limits” violations than you do cars in the wall.
Because they know a car in the wall is the end of the session and perhaps their weekend ruined, whereas running wide on most tracks might just cost them that lap time, but nothing more.

Rigidly and harshly enforce them, and the drivers approach to track limits will change, they’ll keep a safety margin in their driving. The more skilful will manage to be faster and with a smaller margin than those less skilful, just like when racing at street circuits.


I don’t care about gaining an advantage or not, the track limit is the track limit, beyond that limit and you’re beyond the limit. That should mean something and have consequences.
Obviously wheel to wheel hard racing needs taking into account, but most of the time these days cars are going over the lines all on their own with nobody around them. The reason being it is quicker and/or easier, the can carry more speed or less G through the corner or straighten up sooner or whatever else. They’re mostly only doing it because it’s advantageous even if that doesn’t show in lap times necessarily.
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Old 18th Nov 2021, 15:35
  #10412 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Fitter2 View Post
Up to a point, but they are attempting to go as fast as possible round a track which is changing a little every time hey lap, on tyres which are likewise changing grip while taking the best legal line to keep another car behind them which involves braking cornenig and acceleration in the 4 to 5 G range. Understandably they stray outside the defined limits.

What is not accepatble in the rules is to leave the track deliberately (as judged by the race officials) and gain an advantagge by doing so - which Max undoubtedly did on this occasion. His 'if you try to overtake me I will offer you the option of crashing or backing off' is in need of curbing.
Not sure, F1 has been boring for years, Max is bringing back old school driving and the excitement. It is up to the officials to enforce the rules. This season has been the best for years, looks to be going to the wire...
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Old 18th Nov 2021, 19:58
  #10413 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Gordon3333 View Post
Not sure, F1 has been boring for years, Max is bringing back old school driving and the excitement. It is up to the officials to enforce the rules. This season has been the best for years, looks to be going to the wire...
Boring is a subjective standard, it's not boring if you're winning . It is up to the officials to enforce the rules & when they do, they should be doing it as consistently as possible. We are where we are because that didn't happen on Sunday, though, & they've opened a Pandora's box of chaos this weekend, if they don't get a handle on it asap.
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Old 18th Nov 2021, 20:58
  #10414 (permalink)  
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"Rigidly and harshly enforce them, and the drivers approach to track limits will change, they’ll keep a safety margin in their driving. The more skilful will manage to be faster and with a smaller margin than those less skilful, just like when racing at street circuits."
Replacing the tarmac by sand or gravel will change a lot of things without refering to the regulations.
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Old 18th Nov 2021, 22:16
  #10415 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ATN View Post
Replacing the tarmac by sand or gravel will change a lot of things without refering to the regulations.
ATN
I’d be more than happy with that. Big fan of the old school circuits and their gravel traps. The concrete car parks of modern circuits just aren’t punishing enough.
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Old 19th Nov 2021, 09:01
  #10416 (permalink)  
 
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Up to a point, but they are attempting to go as fast as possible round a track which is changing a little every time hey lap, on tyres which are likewise changing grip while taking the best legal line to keep another car behind them which involves braking cornenig and acceleration in the 4 to 5 G range. Understandably they stray outside the defined limits.
So much like MotoGP and World SuperBikes, where the racing is far closer?

In these events, in practice and qualifying exceed track limits and you lose a lap. In the race, three strikes and it's a penalty, either a long lap loop or a time penalty on the last lap - and yes, races have been lost because of that.
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Old 19th Nov 2021, 12:44
  #10417 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Fitter2 View Post
Up to a point, but they are attempting to go as fast as possible round a track which is changing a little every time hey lap, on tyres which are likewise changing grip while taking the best legal line to keep another car behind them which involves braking cornenig and acceleration in the 4 to 5 G range. Understandably they stray outside the defined limits.

What is not accepatble in the rules is to leave the track deliberately (as judged by the race officials) and gain an advantagge by doing so - which Max undoubtedly did on this occasion. His 'if you try to overtake me I will offer you the option of crashing or backing off' is in need of curbing.
It's only because the drivers know that they can stray outside the defined limits without fear of any sanctions that they keep doing so.
Start penalising them and I'm sure that they would soon learn to stay on the track.
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Old 19th Nov 2021, 12:49
  #10418 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by 747 jock View Post
It's only because the drivers know that they can stray outside the defined limits without fear of any sanctions that they keep doing so.
Start penalising them and I'm sure that they would soon learn to stay on the track.
Exactly this. x100000
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Old 19th Nov 2021, 15:26
  #10419 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by 747 jock View Post
It's only because the drivers know that they can stray outside the defined limits without fear of any sanctions that they keep doing so.
Start penalising them and I'm sure that they would soon learn to stay on the track.
Indeed, you'd think the FIA would agree, though, wouldn't you... https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/fu...quest/6798492/
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Old 19th Nov 2021, 15:48
  #10420 (permalink)  
 
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Wink

Originally Posted by alfaman View Post
Indeed, you'd think the FIA would agree, though, wouldn't you... https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/fu...quest/6798492/
When you can mark your own homework, anything is possible !
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