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Formula 1

Old 25th Oct 2021, 08:16
  #10301 (permalink)  
 
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Only my opinion but it seemed to me that was the first time Hamilton has been so obviously outdriven. An extremely good performance under pressure from Verstappen. Whilst I hold no light for RB, for a fizzy drinks company, they seem to be doing quite well against one of the worlds largest and most prestigious manufacturers. Time to see if Merc can pull themselves off the ropes. Excellent season so far.
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Old 25th Oct 2021, 10:18
  #10302 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by clareprop View Post
Only my opinion but it seemed to me that was the first time Hamilton has been so obviously outdriven.
I think the Hamilton+Mercedes combination was bested by the Verstappen+Red-Bull combination. You could clearly see (from FP3 onwards) that the Mercedes was nowhere near as well planted as the Red Bull - its front-end wasn't as grippy and it was suffering a lot more understeer. WHen both were in clear air the Mercedes/Hamilton combo was between 0.4 and 1.4secs/lap faster in race conditions. I would say that what yesterday confirmed was the pretty even match of driver abilities, and how the two of them are probably head-and-shoulders above the rest. The performance of the cars has levelled considerably in this last year of this formula, as witnessed by the problems the drivers of "top" cars often have getting through the pack. But these two still pull away and leave the rest for dust.

Whilst I hold no light for RB, for a fizzy drinks company, they seem to be doing quite well against one of the worlds largest and most prestigious manufacturers.
The fizzy drinks company and the car manufacturer are just providing money. The intellectual and technical aspects (in both cases) are provided by specialists. In that respect it doesn't matter whether the team branding is an engineering organisation or a contraceptive manufacturer - the actual race car design/development/manufacture is well beyond arm's length from them.

PDR
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Old 25th Oct 2021, 10:24
  #10303 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by PDR1 View Post
I think the Hamilton+Mercedes combination was bested by the Verstappen+Red-Bull combination. You could clearly see (from FP3 onwards) that the Mercedes was nowhere near as well planted as the Red Bull - its front-end wasn't as grippy and it was suffering a lot more understeer. WHen both were in clear air the Mercedes/Hamilton combo was between 0.4 and 1.4secs/lap faster in race conditions. I would say that what yesterday confirmed was the pretty even match of driver abilities, and how the two of them are probably head-and-shoulders above the rest. The performance of the cars has levelled considerably in this last year of this formula, as witnessed by the problems the drivers of "top" cars often have getting through the pack. But these two still pull away and leave the rest for dust.



The fizzy drinks company and the car manufacturer are just providing money. The intellectual and technical aspects (in both cases) are provided by specialists. In that respect it doesn't matter whether the team branding is an engineering organisation or a contraceptive manufacturer - the actual race car design/development/manufacture is well beyond arm's length from them.

PDR
I think you hit the nail on the head. The Mercs are still faster overall, especially in clean air. The difference was made in the strategic calls and the in/out laps. That first undercut was huge. Lewis and Max are in a completely different level. I wonder what George can do next year.

the one advantage that a manufacturer has over a Marketing company that also has a fizzy drinks arm, is continuity. Therefore you have to give extra credits to RB/Honda.
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Old 29th Oct 2021, 12:56
  #10304 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by SaulGoodman View Post
the one advantage that a manufacturer has over a Marketing company that also has a fizzy drinks arm, is continuity. Therefore you have to give extra credits to RB/Honda.
Interesting thought. But Red Bull started in F1 in (IIRC) 2005. At that time the now Mercedes team was the Honda team, which was shutdown and recovered into a skeleton team by Ross Brawn in 2008, then sold to Mercedes, Nikki and Toto (with Ross retaining his share) in 2010. So I think the one with the greater continuity would have to be seen as Red Bull....

PDR
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Old 29th Oct 2021, 19:51
  #10305 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by PDR1 View Post
Interesting thought. But Red Bull started in F1 in (IIRC) 2005. At that time the now Mercedes team was the Honda team, which was shutdown and recovered into a skeleton team by Ross Brawn in 2008, then sold to Mercedes, Nikki and Toto (with Ross retaining his share) in 2010. So I think the one with the greater continuity would have to be seen as Red Bull....

PDR
Red Bull grew from Stewart Grand Prix of 1997 on their buyout of GEMS, founded possibly 1986 as an F3000 team. Mercedes are the successors to Tyrrell through BAR, Honda & Brawn starting from 1970 as constructors or 1958 as a customer F3 team.

I say Mercedes.

'a
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Old 30th Oct 2021, 01:40
  #10306 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by PDR1 View Post
I think the Hamilton+Mercedes combination was bested by the Verstappen+Red-Bull combination. You could clearly see (from FP3 onwards) that the Mercedes was nowhere near as well planted as the Red Bull - its front-end wasn't as grippy and it was suffering a lot more understeer. WHen both were in clear air the Mercedes/Hamilton combo was between 0.4 and 1.4secs/lap faster in race conditions. I would say that what yesterday confirmed was the pretty even match of driver abilities, and how the two of them are probably head-and-shoulders above the rest. The performance of the cars has levelled considerably in this last year of this formula, as witnessed by the problems the drivers of "top" cars often have getting through the pack. But these two still pull away and leave the rest for dust.



The fizzy drinks company and the car manufacturer are just providing money. The intellectual and technical aspects (in both cases) are provided by specialists. In that respect it doesn't matter whether the team branding is an engineering organisation or a contraceptive manufacturer - the actual race car design/development/manufacture is well beyond arm's length from them.

PDR
Exactly. The 'Mercedes' engines are produced by Ilmor Engineering, which is now owned by Mercedes, but has been in the engine game for a LONG time. They were the manufacturer of the 'stock block' overhead valve Indy engine that blew everyone away back in the day.
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Old 2nd Nov 2021, 22:47
  #10307 (permalink)  
 
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For all of Hamilton bleating about being the only coloured person in F1 while missing the point that there are often many individual people and races from different nations from Asia to Central America, perhaps what is really missing and should be given a chance is this young lady.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/motorsport/59052527
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Old 3rd Nov 2021, 11:45
  #10308 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by NutLoose View Post
For all of Hamilton bleating about being the only coloured person in F1 while missing the point that there are often many individual people and races from different nations from Asia to Central America, perhaps what is really missing and should be given a chance is this young lady.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/motorsport/59052527
She wouldn't be the first woman in Formula 1, she'd be number 6 - whereas Hamilton is the first. Her mother is Indian born, so she also meets Hamilton's diversity objectives, if she succeeds, and her parents are quite wealthy, which she is happy to say helped get her onto the grid, although, fair play, she's making her own sponsorship arrangements now - money always smooths the path in motorsport. Hamilton has also been very vocal in support of W Series & it's tie in with Formula 1.

The Hamilton Commission was set up to investigate & report on diversity across the whole of UK motorsport, not just Formula 1 or Formula 1 drivers - he's not "bleating" about that, he's questioning what is holding back the industry from being inclusive to people of different backgrounds, when objectively, there's no obvious reason why they should not be attracted to it. It's all here. https://www.hamiltoncommission.org/
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Old 3rd Nov 2021, 13:16
  #10309 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by alfaman View Post
The Hamilton Commission was set up to investigate & report on diversity across the whole of UK motorsport, not just Formula 1 or Formula 1 drivers - he's not "bleating" about that, he's questioning what is holding back the industry from being inclusive to people of different backgrounds, when objectively, there's no obvious reason why they should not be attracted to it. It's all here. https://www.hamiltoncommission.org/
It's also worth noting that the objective of the Hamilton Commission is not to push companies and teams into taking more diverse ranges of people. Their objective is to identify and address anything which is preventing such people from getting into those roles so that individuals can have a chance of achieving aspirations on merit. While there many not be significant active discrimination in motorsport it is certainly true that (especially at the higher echelons) the diversity visibly doesn't reflect the diversity of society as a whole. So there is useful work to be done in identifying and addressing whatever is causing that.

We are doing similar things in my industry (aerospace engineering). Our issue isn't so much ethic diversity as the simple one of being male-dominated. It's interesting to reflect that people who become successful in sports, music, media etc have mostly started actively pursuing that path by the age of 7 or 8, but scientists and engineers only really start self-selecting when they select their chosen school subjects at 14ish. Our primary effort is focused on the 5-12yr age-groups because it is in this period that children form opinions on what sort of future people they might (a) want to be and (b) have a chance of becoming. We have found this is the period where most of the blockers lie - in cultures, families and school expectations. If we address the problem at this level we expect that 10 years later will see a more diverse range of suitable applicants. It's a slow-burn process, but we feel it's the right way to do it.

PDR
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Old 3rd Nov 2021, 13:54
  #10310 (permalink)  
 
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What I was trying to get across was He may be "coloured" but the way he comes across is everyone else is isn't. where as we have Indian drivers, Thai drivers, Columbian, Chillean, Japanese all the diversities of the world, so it isn't as he likes to put across as he is the sole of anything, you could just as much argue we only have one Japanese, so we should have more "diversity"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catego...by_nationality

I knew this would cause ripples, but she deserves a shot.
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Old 3rd Nov 2021, 14:56
  #10311 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by NutLoose View Post
What I was trying to get across was He may be "coloured" but the way he comes across is everyone else is isn't. where as we have Indian drivers, Thai drivers, Columbian, Chillean, Japanese all the diversities of the world, so it isn't as he likes to put across as he is the sole of anything, you could just as much argue we only have one Japanese, so we should have more "diversity"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catego...by_nationality

I knew this would cause ripples, but she deserves a shot.
Being Japanese in Japan doesn't hold you back from being a racing driver, though, does it. Nor does being the son of an Indian rally driver in India, or being the half British/half Thai son of a racing driver in the UK. Montoya & Salazar haven't raced in F1 for years, so not sure how they fit it, really, but it's your analogy.

Jamie Chadwick is already "getting a shot"; how do you think she got into Extreme E & the W series? She's been racing since 2013, have you only just noticed? If she gets the required number of points for her super licence, & convinces a team she has what it takes, I'm sure she'll get there.
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Old 3rd Nov 2021, 14:59
  #10312 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by PDR1 View Post
It's also worth noting that the objective of the Hamilton Commission is not to push companies and teams into taking more diverse ranges of people. Their objective is to identify and address anything which is preventing such people from getting into those roles so that individuals can have a chance of achieving aspirations on merit. While there many not be significant active discrimination in motorsport it is certainly true that (especially at the higher echelons) the diversity visibly doesn't reflect the diversity of society as a whole. So there is useful work to be done in identifying and addressing whatever is causing that.

We are doing similar things in my industry (aerospace engineering). Our issue isn't so much ethic diversity as the simple one of being male-dominated. It's interesting to reflect that people who become successful in sports, music, media etc have mostly started actively pursuing that path by the age of 7 or 8, but scientists and engineers only really start self-selecting when they select their chosen school subjects at 14ish. Our primary effort is focused on the 5-12yr age-groups because it is in this period that children form opinions on what sort of future people they might (a) want to be and (b) have a chance of becoming. We have found this is the period where most of the blockers lie - in cultures, families and school expectations. If we address the problem at this level we expect that 10 years later will see a more diverse range of suitable applicants. It's a slow-burn process, but we feel it's the right way to do it.

PDR
Indeed, I suspect the recommendations in the report cross refer to many other industries. I can certainly think back to my schooling & realise how some of the biases inherent within the system adversely affected my coloured classmates, & that permeated through my professional career too..
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Old 3rd Nov 2021, 20:08
  #10313 (permalink)  
 
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She won the W series twice. She has talent but she should first show it in F3/F2.

on the other hand, we also have Latifi and Mazepin and she has definitely potential for good sponsorship deals.
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Old 6th Nov 2021, 19:08
  #10314 (permalink)  
 
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Jings, just suppose red Bull had to ask Perez to cede 1st to Verstappen - in Mexico!
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Old 6th Nov 2021, 19:12
  #10315 (permalink)  
 
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"Autosport" quotes Horner who says they will adopt team orders if required in the closing stages to give Max the win.
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Old 6th Nov 2021, 20:08
  #10316 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Wodrick View Post
"Autosport" quotes Horner who says they will adopt team orders if required in the closing stages to give Max the win.
Sorry cannot hear what you are saying the radio reception keeps cutting out........
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Old 6th Nov 2021, 21:00
  #10317 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ericlday View Post
Sorry cannot hear what you are saying the radio reception keeps cutting out........

Gasly announced for Red Bull in 2022
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Old 7th Nov 2021, 21:56
  #10318 (permalink)  
 
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Out of interest ,do the teams use air filters in the dusty conditions ,or a coarse `mesh` to stop stones,tear-offs`....?
Brave imaginative move by Max at turn one.....
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Old 7th Nov 2021, 22:40
  #10319 (permalink)  
 
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And a smart flanking move by Perez to distract Hamilton, and so the race was won.
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Old 8th Nov 2021, 01:10
  #10320 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by alfaman View Post
She wouldn't be the first woman in Formula 1, she'd be number 6 - whereas Hamilton is the first.
Few may remember, but Willy T. Ribbs raced at the Indy 500 in 1991...... Janet Guthrie drove in 3 Indy 500 races, with a best finish of 9th, Lyn St. James raced the 500 7 times with a best qualifying of 6th and a best finish of 11th, Danica Patrick had a best start of 4th and a best finish of 3rd; I could go on but won't. I hate to age myself, but when I was running FF1600 back in the eighties in the Northwest Region SCCA there were at least four women racing Formula Ford. There was no courtesy given or taken, just fair racing (for the most part). Gender was not an issue, we were all racing; this was in the 1980's with no special class for women drivers. I would like to see the 'W' series drivers simply race F3 with everyone else......

I had a daughter and hoped she would want to race; I certainly had the skill at car prep to give her a good drive and the money to do it, but she really wasn't interested and I accepted that and never pushed.

Last edited by Winemaker; 8th Nov 2021 at 01:29.
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