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Old 21st Nov 2021, 19:55
  #10281 (permalink)  
 
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I can see why they might take exception, but Iíve seen bigger accusations in the past. Perhaps he wasnít wrong on this occasion
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Old 22nd Nov 2021, 18:11
  #10282 (permalink)  
 
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It’s getting worse, watched the practice and qually, come race day grid all change. As more penalties, it’s getting to a point that the racing is becoming secondary to the rules and you feel after watching the race and seeing the winners that you should wait until Wednesday to find out who actually won. Horner who I used to respect has turned into another bottom feeder that who try anything off track to try and gain an advantage and point / position gains to the detriment of the racing, the pictures of the Mercedes’ spoiler being an example. The did xyz over defend their position stewards looking at it rules etc want binning, it’s racing for gawd sake, and the we will look at it AFTER the race wants binning as well.

The take a grid penalty for an engine change too is proving an exercise in pointlessness as fresh engine are showing to have a race winning advantage.
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Old 22nd Nov 2021, 22:36
  #10283 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by NutLoose View Post
The take a grid penalty for an engine change too is proving an exercise in pointlessness as fresh engine are showing to have a race winning advantage.
That's not a universal situation - it's unique to the Mercedes engine, and it's the other way around. For reasons that Mercedes apparently understand but don't disclose in public their engine suffers much greater degradation through its life than the others (especially the Honda). In previous years the Mercedes engine has been more powerful (although less so in 2019 and 2020) with bulletproof reliability. This year they were seemingly pushed to trade some of that reliability for more power, and it's cost them badly. That's why Hamilton has needed to take two extra engines in the season, while Verstappen only needed to take an extra one to replace the one that was broken in the crash at Silverstone.

Their latest engine spec is a match for the Honda, but it only lasts for a couple of races before the power fades. Its use in Sau Paulo was more about taking best advantage of a track that was less prone to getting people stuck in dirty air - there are so many lines up the hill and through the start straight that drivers can elect not to be stuck. In reality Sau Paulo was mainly won through a better car - the choked diffuser trick reducing drag in high-speed straights. The engine helped, but it wasn't essential. That's why Horner has been desperately trying to find sine regulatory excuse for forcing Mercedes to abandon their aero gains. The car was just as dominant in Qatar, where it had the engine it had used in Mexico. In Qatar it was actually slower than the Red Bull on the straights, but faster through one corner by enough to gain 3 tenths per lap at full fuel. They are putting the Sau Paulo engine back in for Riyadh because (I'm guessing) they feel the slow-speed corners at each end will advantage the Red Bull.

But the penalties were for ignoring yellow flags, and that's ALWAYS been treated seriously because the lives of marshalls depend on it. It's not a new thing at all.

PDR
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Old 23rd Nov 2021, 00:31
  #10284 (permalink)  
 
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Presumably we could get to a position (Lewis wins next...), where on the last race Lewis needs to be super careful cornering with Max, as if he goes off and DNF he's had it, but if Max & Lewis both go off and DNF it works out quite well for Max.
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Old 23rd Nov 2021, 08:34
  #10285 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by artee View Post
Presumably we could get to a position (Lewis wins next...), where on the last race Lewis needs to be super careful cornering with Max, as if he goes off and DNF he's had it, but if Max & Lewis both go off and DNF it works out quite well for Max.
Lewis wins with fastest lap, Max second, theyíll be tied on points going into the last race. With 9 wins for Max and 8 for Lewis.
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Old 23rd Nov 2021, 08:47
  #10286 (permalink)  
 
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But the penalties were for ignoring yellow flags, and that's ALWAYS been treated seriously because the lives of marshalls depend on it. It's not a new thing at all.
Agreed - Horners view (supported by the likes of Brundle) seemed to be that the marshall should only be waving his flag if instructed by Race Control, and the flag should only be valid if logged on the teams GPS systems and the drivers dashboard.

Didn't think that was the case - what if the marshall sees an immediate danger that hasn't yet got through the system - say, a mad Irish priest climbing a fence...
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Old 23rd Nov 2021, 09:19
  #10287 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by SWBKCB View Post
Agreed - Horners view (supported by the likes of Brundle) seemed to be that the marshall should only be waving his flag if instructed by Race Control, and the flag should only be valid if logged on the teams GPS systems and the drivers dashboard.

Didn't think that was the case - what if the marshall sees an immediate danger that hasn't yet got through the system - say, a mad Irish priest climbing a fence...
That's my understanding as well. The marshall's flags/lights are the primary source - gps log and cockpit displays are secondary support. It is the driver's responsibility to look for and see the flags/lights. The delay in a marshall seeing a hazard, radioing it in, explaining it and then Race Control making a decision is far too great. Again, this has always been the case and Horner knows it.

PDR
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Old 23rd Nov 2021, 09:24
  #10288 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by artee View Post
Presumably we could get to a position (Lewis wins next...), where on the last race Lewis needs to be super careful cornering with Max, as if he goes off and DNF he's had it, but if Max & Lewis both go off and DNF it works out quite well for Max.
Originally Posted by LlamaFarmer View Post
Lewis wins with fastest lap, Max second, theyíll be tied on points going into the last race. With 9 wins for Max and 8 for Lewis.
True in principle, but if it was felt that one driver had deliberately taken both cars off the track for competitive advantage the ensuing penalty would almost certainly include loss of existing points to negate that advantage. If it was really blatant it can include loss of the whole season's points (as happened to schuey). Much as they hate to change the championship outcome with penalties they would never allow deliberate "fouls" to assure a win - that's why these penalties exist.

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Old 23rd Nov 2021, 09:57
  #10289 (permalink)  
 
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Senna was a champion & the best of his generation (along with Prost). I didn't watch an F1 race for a few seasons after Imola 1994.
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Old 23rd Nov 2021, 10:04
  #10290 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by PDR1 View Post
True in principle, but if it was felt that one driver had deliberately taken both cars off the track for competitive advantage the ensuing penalty would almost certainly include loss of existing points to negate that advantage. If it was really blatant it can include loss of the whole season's points (as happened to schuey). Much as they hate to change the championship outcome with penalties they would never allow deliberate "fouls" to assure a win - that's why these penalties exist.

PDR
So far I imo both Lewis and Max have not gone into foul play yet and I donít think itíll happen in the remaining races. It has been hard and sometimes a little too close but never was it foul play.
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Old 23rd Nov 2021, 10:27
  #10291 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by SaulGoodman View Post
So far I imo both Lewis and Max have not gone into foul play yet and I donít think itíll happen in the remaining races. It has been hard and sometimes a little too close but never was it foul play.
I agree, but I was responding to the suggestion that Max might take them both out in the last race to confirm his championship. Not suggesting it would happen - just discussing what they'd do if it did.

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Old 23rd Nov 2021, 11:46
  #10292 (permalink)  
 
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As a fan, I still remember feeling cheated of the entire season after Schumacher took Hill out to secure the world championship.

I don't think that is likely to happen this year, at least I really hope not.
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Old 23rd Nov 2021, 20:27
  #10293 (permalink)  
 
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The FIA tests established that the Mercedes rear wing was "solid as a rock". Red Bull now claim that Mercedes have "obviously changed it" which is why the had the reduced top speed in qatar.

A search party is being assembled to attempt to locate Mr Horner's marbles, but they are having difficulty wading through the thick layer of spat dummies which are found everywhere the man goes..

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Old 24th Nov 2021, 05:55
  #10294 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by PDR1 View Post
The FIA tests established that the Mercedes rear wing was "solid as a rock". Red Bull now claim that Mercedes have "obviously changed it" which is why the had the reduced top speed in qatar.

A search party is being assembled to attempt to locate Mr Horner's marbles, but they are having difficulty wading through the thick layer of spat dummies which are found everywhere the man goes..

PDR
How is this different to last May? RBís flexi wings also passed all the test but the regulations were slightly altered later. Mercedes just has a better timing just before the end of the season.

Honestly your beef with Horner / RBR is coming over a bit sad but when someone calls you ďLuluís fanboyĒ you seem to get offended. Both Merc and RBR do play these games. Has always been the case in F1
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Old 24th Nov 2021, 08:19
  #10295 (permalink)  
 
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Red Bull's flexible wings definitely existed - there was objective evidence showing the wings actually moving. Red Bull's repeated claims that the Mercedes wings are flexing are supported by no actual evidence at all - if it was flexing to the extent claimed it would be clearly visible on the rear-facing camera and the 360degree camera. But again the FIA have introduced a new technical directive defining this new test of compliance (rear wing loading) just like they did for the bendy-wings earlier in the season. The difference is that the Mercedes easily passed even the new test. Only then did RB start blathering about changed wings. The alleged evidence is photos that just show marks in paint, but no amount of load applied to the wings could make them flex anywhere near that amount - it's a figment of RB's deranged imagination. The marks are probably just where a different lower element was fitted in some (lower downforce) configurations. In previous years they would replace whole rear wing assemblies, but they are now operating under a cost cap so it's highly probable that the vertical plates are common to many different wing configurations (this is a guess on my part).

In Brazil they claimed the Mercedes was faster because of a new engine and a flexing wing. In Qatar the Merc had an old(er) engine and a rear wing that couldn't be made to flex, but RB still couldn't match it so the whole claim is dubious. If it can still be half a second faster in single-lap pace with the old(er) engine and a wing proven not to flex then the claims of flexing in previous races start looking very silly.

Nothing to do with being a "Lulu fan" (I was more of a Kate Bush fan, if you must know) - just getting fed up with the unmitigated stream of BS flooding out of the RB publicity machine. They should still win the season, but they might have to face the fact that they missed their chance like McLaren/Hamilton did in 2007. They should focus their efforts in fixing their deficiencies rather than spitting dummies and whining like 3-year-olds. Its very undignified.

PDR

Last edited by PDR1; 24th Nov 2021 at 08:46.
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Old 24th Nov 2021, 08:39
  #10296 (permalink)  
 
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Mercedes have had their undignified dummy-spitting moments too. They have been more immature and petty this year than ever before.
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Old 24th Nov 2021, 09:19
  #10297 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by PDR1 View Post
The alleged evidence is photos that just show marks in paint, but no amount of load applied to the wings could make them flex anywhere near that amount - it's a figment of RB's deranged imagination.
The attention to detail in F1 teams is obsessive. Stewart racing used to jack up the trucks in the paddock and rotate the tyres so the Goodyear logo was always centre top. The idea that Mercedes would not find some touch-up paint is unlikely IMHO. Colin Chapman was the master of diversionary tactics. Lotus would be obsessive about hiding the details of the front wing to draw attention away from the undertray and side skirts. It fooled a few teams for quite some time. I suspect those marks are a trail of breadcrumbs to divert attention from elsewhere. If the "Let's Wind Up Horner" department has a vacancy then I am interested in applying. It's more fun than much of the racing.

Last edited by B Fraser; 24th Nov 2021 at 09:23. Reason: Graham Chapman was in Monty Python, not Lotus.
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Old 24th Nov 2021, 10:15
  #10298 (permalink)  
 
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RB - "That rear wing is flexing. Now we've got the FIA to do a formal test that will totes show how illegal it is!"

FAI - "We've tested the wing and even with 100kgs of weight it's not flexing significantly"

Toto "I guess Horner will say it should be tested to 105kgs..."

RB "Well clearly they've changed it for a stiffer wing"

Toto "What, while it was in Parc Ferme? Surely someone might have noticed?"

FAI "Yes we would and no they didn't"

RB "No, at the beginning of the weekend - that's why their top speeds were lower"

Toto "So you claim we used an old(er) engine and a non-flexing wing and you were STILL half a second slower than us in quali. Doesn't that rather destroy your whole claim?"

RB "Your father was a hamster and your mother smelled of elderberries..."

[I don't think this conversation actually took place, but I have as much evidence for it as Horner has for the flexi-wing allegations!]
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Old 24th Nov 2021, 13:31
  #10299 (permalink)  
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Toto : "Anyway, we have CCTV footage showing that Ferrari picked the lock of our garage in the middle of the night and took photos of the undertray".

FIA : "Tut tut, boys will be boys. Oh look, a squirrel !".
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Old 24th Nov 2021, 13:36
  #10300 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by LlamaFarmer View Post
Mercedes have had their undignified dummy-spitting moments too. They have been more immature and petty this year than ever before.
Your examples to support that are..?
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