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Old 12th Sep 2021, 22:56
  #10201 (permalink)  
 
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And that Grosjean fella
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Old 12th Sep 2021, 23:04
  #10202 (permalink)  
 
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I enjoyed LH's comment: "I don't think I've ever been hit on the head by a car before."
Hmm Could be right.
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Old 13th Sep 2021, 00:23
  #10203 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Avionker View Post
That reply from LF raises another question.

Should teams who need to take engine/ gearbox penalties be allowed to “absorb” grid penalties handed down as punishment for driving offences in that manner?

By doing so they are effectively negating the punishment. Would it be fairer to carry that punishment over to the subsequent race, or instead convert a grid place penalty into a time penalty?

I understand that as things stand at the moment they can, and indeed would be foolish not to. But is it fair?
When these penalties first came in they did indeed all have to be served - the Maclaren-Honda managed to accumulate a 105 place grid penalty at Spa in 2015, and some of the back-of the grid teams never managed to get far enough forward to serve the penalties. So they changed the rule to say that once you were at the back of the grid you would zero-out your penalties. There are arguments both ways.

PDR
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Old 13th Sep 2021, 00:26
  #10204 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by SaulGoodman View Post
I think at this one Max was “predominantly to blame”. 3 place penalty is a bit on the heavy side imho, especially if you compare it to Lewis’ 10 sec at Silverstone.
When Lewis served his 10 sec penalty at Silverstone it cost him three places. Spooky...

PDR
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Old 13th Sep 2021, 00:54
  #10205 (permalink)  
 
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Yes, when Horner was saying racing incident in the post race interview and prior to the stewards it was obvious they knew they didn't have a leg to stand on.

Max should have bailed. Lewis showed him how earlier in the race.
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Old 13th Sep 2021, 01:01
  #10206 (permalink)  
 
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I can understand some of the comments on Sky as to whether Max took him out on purpose, he had nothing to lose as in the points would remain the same, but was in the position of knowing Hamilton now had the faster tyres and was looking like he might pass him with what was proving a faster car. And if that happened he might retake the championship lead.

As for not checking on Hamilton I totally agree, it was wrong, he never even looked back and with his car on top of him had no idea if Hamilton was trapped and hence trying to reverse the car, for fear of a fire etc. BAD MOVE.
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Old 13th Sep 2021, 06:19
  #10207 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by SaulGoodman View Post
after having looked at the incident a few more times I am actually leaning towards a racing incident. If you compare this incident with the start there is a very similar situation with Llando and Lewis where Lewis leaves a lot more space. I still think Max has a more blame as he wasn’t clearly alongside but Lewis could have given more space as well.
Conveniently forgetting that Max didn't leave any room for lewis on lap 1 but he expected Hamilton to give him space in a similar situation
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Old 13th Sep 2021, 07:52
  #10208 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by NutLoose View Post
I can understand some of the comments on Sky as to whether Max took him out on purpose, he had nothing to lose as in the points would remain the same, but was in the position of knowing Hamilton now had the faster tyres and was looking like he might pass him with what was proving a faster car. And if that happened he might retake the championship lead.

As for not checking on Hamilton I totally agree, it was wrong, he never even looked back and with his car on top of him had no idea if Hamilton was trapped and hence trying to reverse the car, for fear of a fire etc. BAD MOVE.
How do you propose max checks on lewis, given that Lewis had the car in reverse and was actively revving it, trying to get out of the gravel at the same moment that was walking past? Give him a call on the mobile?

Further, given that Lewis was actively trying to drive the car, and not sitting there doing nothing, what was there to check on exactly?
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Old 13th Sep 2021, 09:04
  #10209 (permalink)  
 
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To be fair, if you look at the post- incident carefully, you can see Verstappen glance at Hamilton as he walks by. It is pretty obvious that Hamilton is moving so he just walk's on. However, that doesn't negate the fact Verstappen was driving like a junior sales manager at a corporate karting evening. The attitude of 'throw it in and see what happens' is just not acceptable at F1 level. At the after race interview with Horner, it was pretty clear he wasn't going to defend his driver. Still, they've both taken each other out now so game-on!
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Old 13th Sep 2021, 09:07
  #10210 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by PDR1 View Post
When Lewis served his 10 sec penalty at Silverstone it cost him three places. Spooky...

PDR
which he could make up in the race which isn’t exactly the same. If they’d waited until after the race in Silverstone as well and handed Lewis a three place grid penalty for the next race then you can compare. In Silverstone there was enough space for Lewis on the inside and here in Monza Lewis didn’t leave any space for Max at the left-hander. Was Max going in too aggressively? Possibly yes, but Lewis had to leave a gap on the outside of turn 1 as he came out op the pit. Therefore I lean towards a race incident. Them coming together again was bound to happen and will happen again for sure.

This whole season shows that the current penalty system doesn’t make much sense. Personally I think you should hand out penalties after the race by taking away points in either the driver standings (for on track behavior) or constructor standings (unsafe releases etc).
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Old 13th Sep 2021, 09:23
  #10211 (permalink)  
 
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Personally I am getting more than a little tired of Messrs Hamilton, Verstappen, Wolff and Horner. BTCC tactics have no place in F1 so I will get back into my time warp and remember fondly era's when Grand Prix racing was both competitive and respectful.........
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Old 13th Sep 2021, 10:14
  #10212 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by beamer View Post
Personally I am getting more than a little tired of Messrs Hamilton, Verstappen, Wolff and Horner. BTCC tactics have no place in F1 so I will get back into my time warp and remember fondly era's when Grand Prix racing was both competitive and respectful.........
Are you referring to Senna and Prost or Hill and Schumi?
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Old 13th Sep 2021, 11:38
  #10213 (permalink)  
 
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One way to keep a good man down. Jump on him.
Actually it was more like two rabbits trying to get down the same hole.
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Old 13th Sep 2021, 14:39
  #10214 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Avionker View Post
I can’t help but wonder whether the Stewards, rightly or wrongly, wanted to send a message to Verstappen that he needs to calm it down a little.

I would hope that this will make him slightly more circumspect and perhaps not rely on others always backing out.

It will be interesting to see if Red Bull decide to take engine penalties in Russia as well, to get them out of the way.
And that is the stupid thing. they were on about people chopping the corner and not handing back and then even though they do hand it back eventually being penalised as they have been seen to gain an advantage..

But as they have a three grid drop penalty in place, allowing Verstufffem to take the engine penalty and starting at the back it thus is absorbing the effect of the three place drop, meaning in effect no punishment. It should be you drop to the back for the engine change and then carry the three place grid penalty over to the next race.
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Old 13th Sep 2021, 15:21
  #10215 (permalink)  
 
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One could argue that back of the grid for an engine change (that was necessitated by a crash deemed predominantly someone else’s fault) is already punishment enough.

I think engine penalty’s are far more severe and out of context than some of the other penalties fished out tbh.

Didn’t McLaren get 120 place grid penalty a few years ago. That was frankly ridiculous, and carrying over penalties that can’t be fully served could lead to a total inability to compete for the remainder of a season. Not really fair, might as well throw the team out the championship.
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Old 13th Sep 2021, 15:29
  #10216 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by NutLoose View Post

As for not checking on Hamilton I totally agree, it was wrong, he never even looked back and with his car on top of him had no idea if Hamilton was trapped and hence trying to reverse the car, for fear of a fire etc. BAD MOVE.
https://cdn-4.motorsport.com/images/...l-racing-1.jpg

Here you can see Max having a glance at Lewis and seeing him frantically trying to get his car back on track. Max might not be a Medical Examiner but I guess he could see Lewis was okay. Equally one might ask wether it is okay to try to get away from underneath while your “colleague” is getting out of the car. Especially as your engineer is telling you explicitly to switch off.

Is it making you feel better when you call the man “Verstuffem”? Please feel free to continue if you deem it necessary.
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Old 13th Sep 2021, 16:42
  #10217 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by LlamaFarmer View Post
One could argue that back of the grid for an engine change (that was necessitated by a crash deemed predominantly someone else’s fault) is already punishment enough.

I think engine penalty’s are far more severe and out of context than some of the other penalties fished out tbh.

Didn’t McLaren get 120 place grid penalty a few years ago. That was frankly ridiculous, and carrying over penalties that can’t be fully served could lead to a total inability to compete for the remainder of a season. Not really fair, might as well throw the team out the championship.
No, the engine change is because they said they were going to need to use another engine before the end of the season, it isn't to do with the crash, therefore if they take it now they can still use the engine removed later as I can see it?. So they are in effect erasing the penalty for the accident, which is wrong and is no punishment at all.

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/ve...ashes/6654155/

It means the Red Bull driver looks bound to take a grid drop at one of the remaining races this year after already moving onto his third and final engine of the season in Hungary. A new engine would result in a 10-place grid penalty.
https://www.msn.com/en-sg/sport/othe...age/ar-AANMj0C

With both drivers now onto their final engine, it means that penalties look likely for both Red Bull drivers entering the second half of the season, with a possible 12 races remaining in the 2021 campaign.
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Old 13th Sep 2021, 16:52
  #10218 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by SaulGoodman View Post
https://cdn-4.motorsport.com/images/...l-racing-1.jpg

Here you can see Max having a glance at Lewis and seeing him frantically trying to get his car back on track. Max might not be a Medical Examiner but I guess he could see Lewis was okay. Equally one might ask wether it is okay to try to get away from underneath while your “colleague” is getting out of the car. Especially as your engineer is telling you explicitly to switch off.

Is it making you feel better when you call the man “Verstuffem”? Please feel free to continue if you deem it necessary.
Totally agree. I thought I must have been seeing things as I saw Max look over as he was level with the cockpit.

Also agree about the childish use of the so-called nickname. Pathetic.
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Old 13th Sep 2021, 17:44
  #10219 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by NutLoose View Post
No, the engine change is because they said they were going to need to use another engine before the end of the season, it isn't to do with the crash, therefore if they take it now they can still use the engine removed later as I can see it?. So they are in effect erasing the penalty for the accident, which is wrong and is no punishment at all.

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/ve...ashes/6654155/



https://www.msn.com/en-sg/sport/othe...age/ar-AANMj0C
The MSN link you shared to counter what I said, says exactly what I said, which was that the engine from Silverstone was destroyed and irreparable.

Maybe they’d have needed a 4th engine anyway later in the season, but they had a perfectly ok engine taken out of commission as a result of that crash, a lot sooner than it’s planned life.
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Old 13th Sep 2021, 18:24
  #10220 (permalink)  
 
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Yes, so the engine he is using now is more or less new, which means it’s probably good for a few races, but by putting a fourth one in now he can use the current one as a spare with no penalty later in the season and in effect wipe the crash penalty out.

Look at it this way, he takes a three place penalty in Russia for the collision, then later needs a fourth engine and takes a grid penalty then and starts from the back. That’s two penalties in the season.

but what they are looking at is adding a fourth engine now and taking a penalty of starting from the back, that would mean the engine they take out could be used as a spare later penalty free and lose the three place drop, hence one penalty.

Last edited by NutLoose; 13th Sep 2021 at 18:38.
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