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Old 18th Jul 2021, 23:27
  #9681 (permalink)  
 
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Seems to me that Verstappen has really matured as a driver this year and is pretty much driving faultlessly. The contact did occur in the middle of the track and Hamilton had plenty of room so I fault Hamilton; he may have had understeer and been unable to turn the car more, as commented above, but he did have the ability to back off and avoid a collision. Except for the blown tire (tyre for you Brits) Verstappen would be much further ahead and deservedly so as he's really driving well.

It was such a pleasure to see the cars on a real track without the huge painted stripes of the French GP; grass and gravel certainly help enforce the track limits. I just hope we have more of the aggression we're seeing now; Hamilton is having to work for a change and the races are getting to be fun to watch. I would truly love to see F1 at Elkhart Lake or Sonoma but unfortunately that will never happen - we'll get Miami instead.......
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Old 19th Jul 2021, 00:10
  #9682 (permalink)  
 
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Someone posted a video on farce OK of the 7 occasions that Verstappen has taken out other cars whilst going for a non existent gap... Or just crashing into the back of his team mate. Great racer but he needs to learn humility.
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Old 19th Jul 2021, 02:29
  #9683 (permalink)  
 
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Meanwhile Lewis pulled out the old catchcry "he wouldn't be bullied" again.
Who the F bullied him???

FWIW, given the severity of the consequences in that corner, if the stewards did adjudge him to be at fault, I think a stop/go penalty would have been more appropriate.
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Old 19th Jul 2021, 02:38
  #9684 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Winemaker View Post
Seems to me that Verstappen has really matured as a driver this year and is pretty much driving faultlessly. The contact did occur in the middle of the track and Hamilton had plenty of room so I fault Hamilton; he may have had understeer and been unable to turn the car more, as commented above, but he did have the ability to back off and avoid a collision. Except for the blown tire (tyre for you Brits) Verstappen would be much further ahead and deservedly so as he's really driving well
Verstappen also had the ability to go wide and back out of it to avoid the collision too. So it’s not just Hamilton at fault.
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Old 19th Jul 2021, 02:58
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Originally Posted by NutLoose View Post
Verstappen also had the ability to go wide and back out of it to avoid the collision too. So itís not just Hamilton at fault.
So every time someone sticks their nose in the other driver has to back off? I used to race FF1600 and I sure don't remember that rule. In fact, I remember the first time I actually raced; the car trying to pass me got his nose in outside in a sweeper and normally I would have just let him go, but I realized I was racing and he was the one trying to overtake. I just said to myself it's on you pal, I have the line. The overtaking driver has to realize they can't and back out. Hamilton, despite his radio call, was not ahead and Verstappen was on the racing line. And yes, both parties have a responsibility to avoid a collision.

This season might be a memorable one
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Old 19th Jul 2021, 03:35
  #9686 (permalink)  
 
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If the leading edge of Max's rear caught the back of Lewis's front, it was because he was accelerating faster than Lewis, or Lewis was slowing/backing out, or both.
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Old 19th Jul 2021, 05:34
  #9687 (permalink)  
 
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It just reinforces the old adage that you cant win a race on the first lap but you can lose it. These 2 have had some close racing in the past but a collision at some point was inevitable. Max has always been very aggressive and that bit him today.
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Old 19th Jul 2021, 05:41
  #9688 (permalink)  
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Not quite sure why you think the stewards would favour a British driver.

Nish Shetty - Singapore
Dennis Dean - Australia
Loic Bacquelaine - Luxembourg
Emanuele Pirro - Italy
Eric Cowcill - UK
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Old 19th Jul 2021, 06:54
  #9689 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by PDR1 View Post
Sent with the gift message "You and Helmut seem to have forgotten to pick these up after you spat them on Sunday" [signed "The Grown-Up F1 fans"]

PDR
Yes, they should learn from Hamilton and Wolf, never ever heard them complain about anything.
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Old 19th Jul 2021, 07:16
  #9690 (permalink)  
 
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As for Max's comments about Lewis being "disrespectful" for celebrating after winning...

was that him talking or Red Bull's PR department?

I never have liked Red Bull as a team, but Christian Horner has sunk to new levels this time...showing everyone what a prize pillock he is..

Dietrich Mateschitz has threatened to pull out of F1 on more than one occasion, if his precious team don't get their way..maybe its time he honoured that threat...

If Honda do not supply the know how to further develop their powerplant after this year, RB could fall from performance even quicker than Ferrari!

Well done Lewis, you had to work hard for that win, but persistence pays off...
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Old 19th Jul 2021, 09:13
  #9691 (permalink)  
 
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When I said that I agreed with Horner it was about his radio call with Michael Masi. Not with what he said after the race. It was not a ďprofessional foulĒ whatever that means anyway. I am pretty sure there was no intention involved as the consequences for Lewis were bigger if they had both gone off.
I get Hornerís frustration as this race gave them zero points, their #1 driver in hospital and a completely damaged car that will need a new engine and gearbox. In that respect 10 second penalty is nothing. But should you punish the action or the outcome?

Saturday had shown that whoever came out first out of the opening lap was in a good position for the victory. Two rivals fighting aggressive. If Max gave Lewis more space he would have let him pass. Lewis made a small mistake with huge consequences. 9 out of 10 times they would have gone off together. Lewis was extremely lucky for the 3rd time this season but you need luck to be on your side if you have two teams who are within a few tenths of a second all season.

Lewis could have celebrated with a little bit more humility in my opinion knowing Max was still in hospital for a scan but the good thing is: the gloves are off for the rest of the season!

Perez needs to get his act together and Bottas is racing like a wet fart. Canít get close to LeClerc. Is blaming his poor result on the early stop which actually let him pass Norris and even with 10 second penalty he canít get close to his teammate.
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Old 19th Jul 2021, 09:41
  #9692 (permalink)  
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Unlike spectators it seems other drivers consider it a first lap racing accident.

https://f1i.com/news/412871-alonso-l...side-line.html
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Old 19th Jul 2021, 09:47
  #9693 (permalink)  
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https://www.racefans.net/2021/07/19/...rcedes-rivals/

Racist abuse of Hamilton on social media condemned by F1, FIA, Mercedes and rival teams
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Old 19th Jul 2021, 10:33
  #9694 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by SaulGoodman View Post
When I said that I agreed with Horner it was about his radio call with Michael Masi. Not with what he said after the race. It was not a ďprofessional foulĒ whatever that means anyway. I am pretty sure there was no intention involved as the consequences for Lewis were bigger if they had both gone off.
I get Hornerís frustration as this race gave them zero points, their #1 driver in hospital and a completely damaged car that will need a new engine and gearbox. In that respect 10 second penalty is nothing. But should you punish the action or the outcome?
Quite. And it now seems that Max going to hospital for observation was at the team's request, not something suggested by the on-track medical centre. This morning he's left hospital and is fine - quell surprise...

Saturday had shown that whoever came out first out of the opening lap was in a good position for the victory. Two rivals fighting aggressive. If Max gave Lewis more space he would have let him pass. Lewis made a small mistake with huge consequences. 9 out of 10 times they would have gone off together. Lewis was extremely lucky for the 3rd time this season but you need luck to be on your side if you have two teams who are within a few tenths of a second all season.
I think there are two things here. Firstly Max is well known for aggressive driving and muscling other people off the track or out of his way. Other drivers don't like being bullied, but won't risk damage contesting a corner with him. On this occasion he was trying it on a driver who wasn't intimidated. Perhaps he could learn from that. But secondly I think both Lewis and Max know that the RB wasn't as good as the Merc at high fuel weights - this had been a bit evident in FP2 (but powder was being desiccated). If you watch that first lap you see that pretty well from the off Max was on the defensive, constantly reacting to what Lewis was doing rather than running his own race because Lewis was all over him. So max had to defend each corner while Lewis could ick his lines, and on pretty well every corner Lewis was able to square it off, setting up a better exit that allowed him to get on the power earlier. If you listen to the Brindle commentary he's constantly referring to how Lewis will be able to get better drive out of a corner that Max had had to defend. The Merc also seemed to be faster on the straight, so it was highly probable that Lewis would have been able to take him with a slipstream down the Hamilton straight at the start of the next lap anyway. I think Max knew all this, and was desperate to maintain his position, and I think his turn-in was more akin to the infamous Shuey take-outs on Damon and Jacques.

Lewis could have celebrated with a little bit more humility in my opinion knowing Max was still in hospital for a scan
He didn't. After the accident he asked if Max was OK and was told he had walked out of the car. He wasn't told Max was in the hospital until the post-race press conference about half an hour after the race.

Perez needs to get his act together
He was compromised by the sin in the Sprint, but yes.

and Bottas is racing like a wet fart. Canít get close to LeClerc. Is blaming his poor result on the early stop which actually let him pass Norris and even with 10 second penalty he canít get close to his teammate.
He was doing reasonably well until being forced into the early stop. He then had the problem that if he'd pushed he would have shagged his tyres and needed a second stop. I also suspect there were some team tactics here - Mercedes were in the running for either a 1-3 or a 2-3 which would give a huge haul of constructor points to redress the deficit from earlier races. He provided the tow for Lewis in quali, and he played the team game letting him past (unlike earlier in the season). I do wonder if he's been promised a big bonus and/or guaranteed seat for next year if he plays the wingman role this year.

PDR
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Old 19th Jul 2021, 11:06
  #9695 (permalink)  
 
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The more the season goes on, the more I am convinced that Bottas will remain. Good wingman most of the time, excellent qualifier most of the time, usually follows team orders. This is what Mercedes want. Lewis and George squabbling is Rosberg v Hamilton all over again. The last thing Toto would want!!,
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Old 19th Jul 2021, 11:22
  #9696 (permalink)  
 
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Just to add my 5p worth, if you look at the replays, it is clear that Lewis was backing out of the manoeuvre and it was only a matter of centimetres between taking Max out and Lewis losing his wing instead.
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Old 19th Jul 2021, 11:44
  #9697 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ATSA1 View Post
As for Max's comments about Lewis being "disrespectful" for celebrating after winning...

was that him talking or Red Bull's PR department?

I never have liked Red Bull as a team, but Christian Horner has sunk to new levels this time...showing everyone what a prize pillock he is..

Dietrich Mateschitz has threatened to pull out of F1 on more than one occasion, if his precious team don't get their way..maybe its time he honoured that threat...

If Honda do not supply the know how to further develop their powerplant after this year, RB could fall from performance even quicker than Ferrari!

Well done Lewis, you had to work hard for that win, but persistence pays off...
It's worse than you think, during the race they cut to the Red Bull wall and it showed one of them having to drink the goddamn awful stuff..
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Old 19th Jul 2021, 13:28
  #9698 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by PDR1 View Post
Quite. And it now seems that Max going to hospital for observation was at the team's request, not something suggested by the on-track medical centre. This morning he's left hospital and is fine - quell surprise...



I think there are two things here. Firstly Max is well known for aggressive driving and muscling other people off the track or out of his way. Other drivers don't like being bullied, but won't risk damage contesting a corner with him. On this occasion he was trying it on a driver who wasn't intimidated. Perhaps he could learn from that. But secondly I think both Lewis and Max know that the RB wasn't as good as the Merc at high fuel weights - this had been a bit evident in FP2 (but powder was being desiccated). If you watch that first lap you see that pretty well from the off Max was on the defensive, constantly reacting to what Lewis was doing rather than running his own race because Lewis was all over him. So max had to defend each corner while Lewis could ick his lines, and on pretty well every corner Lewis was able to square it off, setting up a better exit that allowed him to get on the power earlier. If you listen to the Brindle commentary he's constantly referring to how Lewis will be able to get better drive out of a corner that Max had had to defend. The Merc also seemed to be faster on the straight, so it was highly probable that Lewis would have been able to take him with a slipstream down the Hamilton straight at the start of the next lap anyway. I think Max knew all this, and was desperate to maintain his position, and I think his turn-in was more akin to the infamous Shuey take-outs on Damon and Jacques.



He didn't. After the accident he asked if Max was OK and was told he had walked out of the car. He wasn't told Max was in the hospital until the post-race press conference about half an hour after the race.



He was compromised by the sin in the Sprint, but yes.



He was doing reasonably well until being forced into the early stop. He then had the problem that if he'd pushed he would have shagged his tyres and needed a second stop. I also suspect there were some team tactics here - Mercedes were in the running for either a 1-3 or a 2-3 which would give a huge haul of constructor points to redress the deficit from earlier races. He provided the tow for Lewis in quali, and he played the team game letting him past (unlike earlier in the season). I do wonder if he's been promised a big bonus and/or guaranteed seat for next year if he plays the wingman role this year.

PDR
Whether Max has or had an aggressive driving style is not really important. You have to judge each case individually. He gave him enough space. Lewis didnít back out and went a little wide. 2 weeks ago they gave penalties for what were clearly racing incidents in my view. Yesterday wasnít. Lewis was all over a defending Max, he had better exits, straight line speed. But if you want to pass on the inside you have to be on the inside and not a carís width from the apex. There was enough space for Lewis. Therefore I agree with the FIA conclusion about who caused the collision. Lewis was just extremely lucky to continue his race.

I found it hard to believe that Lewis didnít know that Max was still in the hospital. If Blondie or anyone else didnít tell him what was known to the world it is a communication error and not Lewisí fault but the teams. I hold Lewis in high regards, an extraordinary driver and personality but if you caused a collision, be able to have a look at your front wing during the red flag that he himself caused, passed your wingman on team orders then a little humility would be in place. I also donít see any reason why they should further discuss it between them. It happened, itís racing. I wonder how many Hamilton flags we will see in Spa & Zandvoort


I canít say that Bottas did reasonably well: On both starts he lost a position, he couldnít pass Norris on track and he could never match his teammate. If Mercedes really are to keep Bottas for next season than that means that they have serious doubts about George. A big bonus sounds indeed much more logically.
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Old 19th Jul 2021, 13:33
  #9699 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by alfaman View Post
I expect Verstappen would have the same 10 second penalty, except I suspect Hamilton would have backed off to play the long game, so the collision wouldn't have occurred. To imply somehow Verstappen would have been penalised more is ridiculous. It's almost like you haven't actually been watching...
same penalty for both indeed. I donít think that were the roles reversed HAM would have backed out. If you start factoring in other drivers mistakes then you will automatically leave to much space and you lose position.
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Old 19th Jul 2021, 13:48
  #9700 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by SaulGoodman View Post
same penalty for both indeed. I donít think that were the roles reversed HAM would have backed out. If you start factoring in other drivers mistakes then you will automatically leave to much space and you lose position.
Hamilton's learned not to put his car into a position where he comes off worse: he's certainly had those moments, but that's 7 world championships ago. If you look back at the first lap leading up to the crash, Hamilton got his nose ahead a couple of times, but backed off rather than continue & risk a race ending collision. I suspect, in spite of all the public ranting from Red Bull, behind closed doors they'll be reviewing whether Verstappen would have been better served relinquishing that corner & getting a run at Hamilton through the rest of the lap.
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