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Old 18th Jul 2021, 16:54
  #9661 (permalink)  
 
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My personal view is that in isolation it should be treated a racing incident.
However, when looking at it in the context of Norris/Perez and Perez/Leclerc x2 in Austria, and Russell/Sainz yesterday, all of which were awarded penalties, all of which were lesser incidents, you kind of force your hand on consistency.

The horse has bolted for 2021, but next year right from the first minute of the first session of the first pre-season test, they have to sort their “stuff” out when it comes to consistency on track limits and on penalty’s.
Be more lenient on racing incidents, and anything that’s closer than a 60/40, or even 70/30 should just be left alone. Or some kind of minor penalty like a demarcation point, accumulate 3 of those = a 1 place grid drop.
But really enforce track limits at every single part of every single track. The track is the track, off it is not. And police that properly.

I feel that today’s penalty was awarded partly because they kind of had to based on other very recent stewards decisions, and also because when you looked at Lewis, he was nowhere near the apex of the corner and never would have been, yet Leclerc behind him was a hell of a lot tighter.
Lewis got alongside enough, then started to lift or back out of it and dropped behind, before continuing to commit to a racing line that was drifting too far across the track, whereas Max was pretty much on the normal racing line.

This wasn’t a case of running someone wide on the exit, it was already an accident before the apex of the corner.

First lap, let them race, etc etc. But they didn’t last race or yesterday. They have to keep consistent.



Another very lucky red flag for Lewis though… if he’d had to replace a front wing behind a bunched up pack, he’d have been dead last on the restart. Kind of a lucky result, he could easily have ended up in the barrier himself as well, and I actually thought he was for a second.
Felt bad for Norris, if he had a normal pit stop then he’d have been comfortably ahead after the stops and perhaps he could have held off Bottas.

Shame George is in a car that is good enough in clear air (like in quali) but just can’t race around other cars. If he’s not in the merc next year, then hopefully Williams make massive strides for 2022’s regs.
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Old 18th Jul 2021, 17:25
  #9662 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by LlamaFarmer View Post
Another very lucky red flag for Lewis though… if he’d had to replace a front wing behind a bunched up pack, he’d have been dead last on the restart.
My understanding - and I'm happy to be corrected - is that Lewis had only a cracked wheel rim, no other damage to his car from the Verstappen incident.

Whether that would have been detected and caused an additional pitstop I don't know.
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Old 18th Jul 2021, 17:39
  #9663 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Blues&twos View Post
My understanding - and I'm happy to be corrected - is that Lewis had only a cracked wheel rim, no other damage to his car from the Verstappen incident.

Whether that would have been detected and caused an additional pitstop I don't know.
According to the team comms they replaced the damaged wheel (which was precautionary only). They did a repair to the front wing, but it was only to re-attach the front-left camera which was flapping about. If they hadn't stopped the camera would soon have detached because they are designed to be frangible - AIUI they are moulded polyurethane foam and weight less than a politician's conscience. Lewis would have felt the vibration, but it had no effect on the performance.

I've just ordered a box of dummies for delivery to Mr Horner of Milton Keynes, with the gift card saying "you and Helmut seem to have forgotten to pick these up"

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Old 18th Jul 2021, 17:47
  #9664 (permalink)  
 
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Overall summary - seriously good race, absolute stonker of a drive from both 1st and 2nd place drivers.

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Old 18th Jul 2021, 18:19
  #9665 (permalink)  
 
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Not the greatest fan of F1 but BZ to the designers for the safety cell in the Red Bull. Would like to see the lateral G force on the stop.
I want them to help design me next car.

Ps was watching the golf from so just caught up with the highlights. Was the 2 x Spitfires planned for Royal St George or just passing by??
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Old 18th Jul 2021, 18:22
  #9666 (permalink)  
 
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One wonders if the roles had been reversed, and Lewis ended up in the wall, what Mr Horner would have said then...

Its called Motor Racing, its not flower arranging at the WI...

But I hope that Max is OK,Just a bit sore in the morning...
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Old 18th Jul 2021, 18:36
  #9667 (permalink)  
 
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Wonder if Lewis will visit N`Hampton General on his way home with a bunch of grapes(sour)....?
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Old 18th Jul 2021, 18:38
  #9668 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ATSA1 View Post
One wonders if the roles had been reversed, and Lewis ended up in the wall, what Mr Horner would have said then...

Its called Motor Racing, its not flower arranging at the WI...

But I hope that Max is OK,Just a bit sore in the morning...
come on.. Lewis was no way near the inside of the corner while Max left enough space. It was a spectacular opening though! Lewis was extremely lucky to be able to continue and win the race. This one was entirely on Lewis. But at least it makes the competition exciting again. I completely agree with Horner. But what an outstanding performance from Charles!
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Old 18th Jul 2021, 18:44
  #9669 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Blues&twos View Post
My understanding - and I'm happy to be corrected - is that Lewis had only a cracked wheel rim, no other damage to his car from the Verstappen incident.

Whether that would have been detected and caused an additional pitstop I don't know.
It seemed very much like they were going to box him for a new wing, but then they stayed out and there was the red flag.

When there’s a safety car, do you have the time and ability to analyse the telemetry accurately enough, when the cars are going much slower.
What might appear ok at safety car speeds might be a big aero/balance deficit at racing speeds, but by the time you’re back racing it’s too late.

I think it’s only as it because clear there might be a red flag they kept him out. Had the race never stopped they’d have to commit to a decision to stay out or box and replace.


Yeah it sounds like he came off surprisingly well actually, I thought there’d be more damage, especially as it shattered the face off Max’s wheel and allowed the tyre to detach.

I guess Lewis is lucky not to have ended in the wall as well, lucky to not have had more damage to the wing, or unrepairable damage to barge boards/floor etc. You can’t make that kind of luck and could have easily been worse off.
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Old 18th Jul 2021, 20:03
  #9670 (permalink)  
 
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Max has history, Monaco 2015, Australia 2016 for example. I don't recall him rushing round apologising.
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Old 18th Jul 2021, 20:11
  #9671 (permalink)  
 
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/57882235

Verstappen said: "The penalty given does not help us and doesn't do justice to the dangerous move Lewis made on track."

Hamilton said: "I was pretty far alongside him but I could see he wasn't going to back out but then we went into the corner and we collided.

"Of course that's never the way I want to win a race or just in general to race but these things do happen. I just hope he's OK. And I look forward to many more races."
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Old 18th Jul 2021, 20:31
  #9672 (permalink)  
 
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It was Senna v Prost all over again.

HAM wasn’t going to lift either way I think. That was his last opportunity before VER would get into a rhythm and clean air. He neeed then to get passed.
Both MERC and RB do more then bend the rules. And everyone knows it. VER and RB got their just reward. And I’m sure he’s return the favour next race.

i don’t like either drivers or teams, but I’ll happily enjoy the show with a beer or 3. Bring on Hungry!
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Old 18th Jul 2021, 20:49
  #9673 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Kiltrash View Post
Would like to see the lateral G force on the stop.
A 51G impact is the official figure given.
https://www.planetf1.com/news/max-ve...spital-checks/

I would most definitely not want to experience that.
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Old 18th Jul 2021, 21:30
  #9674 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by SaulGoodman View Post
come on.. Lewis was no way near the inside of the corner while Max left enough space. It was a spectacular opening though! Lewis was extremely lucky to be able to continue and win the race. This one was entirely on Lewis. But at least it makes the competition exciting again. I completely agree with Horner. But what an outstanding performance from Charles!
Although Charles did seem to go AWOL when Lewis attacked. Subconsciously I wonder if Charles felt a second place was better than a DNF.
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Old 18th Jul 2021, 21:32
  #9675 (permalink)  
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I feel that today’s penalty was awarded partly because they kind of had to based on other very recent stewards decisions, and also because when you looked at Lewis, he was nowhere near the apex of the corner and never would have been, yet Leclerc behind him was a hell of a lot tighter.
Lewis got alongside enough, then started to lift or back out of it and dropped behind, before continuing to commit to a racing line that was drifting too far across the track, whereas Max was pretty much on the normal racing line.

This wasn’t a case of running someone wide on the exit, it was already an accident before the apex of the corner.
Watch the video of the two cockpits and look at their hands.

Hamilton has maximum lock wound in, it’s just that the car won’t turn any tighter to make the apex. Max starts to turn, see’s Hamilton and relaxes the turn - then tightens it again.

Max was relying on Hamilton chickening out and braking, because he’s forced him to do it 4 times before and assumed he’d do it again. Max has a reputation of being the wild man assumes others will play safe and let him through

But Hamilton has made it known he’s fighting for the championship and will not back down again - if Max wants to play hard rules so will he, and he won’t back out of any more challenges.

W’ll just have to see who has the stronger car.
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Old 18th Jul 2021, 21:35
  #9676 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Tech Guy View Post
A 51G impact is the official figure given.
https://www.planetf1.com/news/max-ve...spital-checks/

I would most definitely not want to experience that.
it was one of the fastest corners and a VERY late attempt to slide past. The officials deemed it worthy of a penalty but 10 seconds is a joke.
It should be been a minimum 30 seconds stop/go. And I can’t stand RB.
VER in front had the correct racing line into the corner and had a right to maintain that. He still left room (was hit almost middle of the track) and was hit so hard his rear tyre came off the rim.

British WC driver. British GP. Fan favourite. MERC having huge influence and money with the FIA. How could you penalize him harshly?

Hence the easily made up 10 seconds from a front running car.
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Old 18th Jul 2021, 21:36
  #9677 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ORAC View Post
Watch the video of the two cockpits and look at their hands.

Hamilton has maximum lock wound in, it’s just that the car won’t turn any tighter to make the apex. Max starts to turn, see’s Hamilton and relaxes the turn - then tightens it again.

Max was relating on Hamilton chickening out and braking, because he’s forced him to do it 4 times before and assumed he’d do it again. Max has a reputation of being the wild man assumes others will play safe and let him through

But Hamilton has made it known he’s fighting for the championship and will not back down again - if Max wants to play hard rules so will he, and he won’t back out of any more challenges.

W’ll just have to see who has the stronger car.
You’re explanation then shows HAM should have back off more. He knew he’d run wide and into VER. if it was the other way around, VER would have been DQ.
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Old 18th Jul 2021, 21:38
  #9678 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Jonno_aus View Post
It was Senna v Prost all over again.

HAM wasn’t going to lift either way I think. That was his last opportunity before VER would get into a rhythm and clean air. He neeed then to get passed.
Both MERC and RB do more then bend the rules. And everyone knows it. VER and RB got their just reward. And I’m sure he’s return the favour next race.

i don’t like either drivers or teams, but I’ll happily enjoy the show with a beer or 3. Bring on Hungry!
Senna & Prost were at each other before they collided, whereas Hamilton & Verstappen have been cordial so far, expect that to change. If you watch the replay, Hamilton did lift, just not sufficiently given that Verstappen still planned on turning in. I suspect Verstappen now understands that Hamilton isn't going to yield to him, if he wants to play hard, so be it.
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Old 18th Jul 2021, 23:17
  #9679 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Jonno_aus View Post
it was one of the fastest corners and a VERY late attempt to slide past. The officials deemed it worthy of a penalty but 10 seconds is a joke.
It should be been a minimum 30 seconds stop/go.
The only problem with that is simply that there is no such rule. The rules allow for five in-race penalties - 5sec, 10sec, stop-go,10sec stop-go and black flag. The stewards reviewed the available evidence and decided to impose the second lightest penalty, presumably because they regarded it as barely more than a racing incident.

But please feel free to invent new rules - you can join Cristian Horner with his new rule that apparently Stowe is a no-overtaking zone for all cars other than Red Bulls...

PDR
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Old 18th Jul 2021, 23:23
  #9680 (permalink)  
 
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Sent with the gift message "You and Helmut seem to have forgotten to pick these up after you spat them on Sunday" [signed "The Grown-Up F1 fans"]

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