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Formula 1

Old 6th Dec 2020, 18:46
  #8941 (permalink)  
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Not sure that Mercedes could not have had to do the pit stop - look what happened To Bottas being overtaken on his old tyres - and the others would have been right in their tails after the restart.

Accepting the team had only a couple of seconds notice - yes it was a f*** up. According to Toto the cause was a radio failure which meant the tyre team didn’t get the call. All the more reason they should have taken their time.

In some respects that allowed Russell to shine even more. If he had just cruised to win some would have said it was just the car - but to lead from the start, then to recover from the pit stop to overtake Bottas and Ocon and be posed to win, then to recover from the puncture into the points. Then they he has handled himself in the interviews.

As Toto said, a star is born - and he deserves to take the second seat in the team next year - because it is obvious that Bottas because of age and ability will not be suitable to step up to take over from Lewis when he retires - and Russell, after a year to learn from him, obviously will be - and could even challenge him (remember Lewis against Alonso in his first season).

Last edited by ORAC; 6th Dec 2020 at 19:25.
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Old 6th Dec 2020, 18:51
  #8942 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Tango and Cash View Post
I would not want to be in the Mercedes post-race debrief this evening.

Actually, yes I would. As a fly on the wall, as they try to explain how they threw away a race they had won with that pit stop fiasco.
Fingers crossed that Netflix 'Drive to Survive' has got it covered.
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Old 6th Dec 2020, 19:29
  #8943 (permalink)  
 
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Russel here, Russel there and a spot of Hamilton. Sod that, boring.

Congratulations to Checo for winning his first race, fully deserved after Leclerc had yet another brain fart and pushing back up from 18th.

What this race did prove, however, is that you can take a back marker and put him in the best car and suddenly he's got race winning potential.

Bottas should be done, Albon likewise. Russel to replace Bottas seems a shoe-in, if Hamilton will "allow" it, and Checo should be getting a call from Dr. Marko before boarding the flight to Ab Dabs.
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Old 6th Dec 2020, 20:20
  #8944 (permalink)  
 
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Russell isn’t a back-marker driver though, his car is.

That shows just how massive an impact the car has, far more than the driver.

“70% car, 30% driver” is what Danny Ric said.
Thats way too much car. It needs to be at least 50/50, or more heavily weighted towards the driver.

Maybe the 2022 rule changes will rebalance things a bit more.

But it does show beyond doubt that the same driver can win in the best car and lose in the worst car.

But yeah I’m sure Lewis could have been the GOAT in any car on the grid.
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Old 6th Dec 2020, 20:39
  #8945 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by SMT Member View Post
Congratulations to Checo for winning his first race, fully deserved after Leclerc had yet another brain fart and pushing back up from 18th.
Leclerc's collision was remarkably similar to when he ran into Vettel early in the season - and again the move that Vettel complained so bitterly about last weekend. That he keeps doing it deserves a penalty.

Originally Posted by SMT Member View Post
Bottas should be done, Albon likewise. Russel to replace Bottas seems a shoe-in, if Hamilton will "allow" it, and Checo should be getting a call from Dr. Marko before boarding the flight to Ab Dabs.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but memory says Bottas is already signed for next season - it's Lewis that's unsigned. If nothing else, Lewis's bargaining position has gotten massively worse in the last 48 hours.

Driver of the day - OK, I can see voting for either Russell or Perez. But Fittipaldi? Last of the cars still running (granted in a bad car), and he got 6% of the vote for Driver of the Day? WTF?

BTW, with Austin Martin taking over Racing Point - are they going to continue to be a primary sponsor of Red Bull too?
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Old 6th Dec 2020, 20:52
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BTW, with Austin Martin taking over Racing Point -

If it's an Austin it will break down at the first corner.
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Old 6th Dec 2020, 21:15
  #8947 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by tdracer View Post
But Fittipaldi? Last of the cars still running (granted in a bad car), and he got 6% of the vote for Driver of the Day? WTF?

BTW, with Austin Martin taking over Racing Point - are they going to continue to be a primary sponsor of Red Bull too?
I did wonder that too. He drove an entirely unremarkable race, having qualified last behind both Williams, including another new-boy Jack Aitken.

I almost wonder if it’s still a sympathy vote for Grosjean after last week. Because I can’t think what else it would be.


Yeah I guess RBR become someone else. Again.
Infiniti RBR. Aston Martin RBR. Who next?

Toto must be very pleased privately though... once he’s taken his Mercedes hat off.
He has significant interest in Racing Point/Aston Martin, and is Ocon’s manager, so had a full house on the podium of private interests.
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Old 6th Dec 2020, 21:22
  #8948 (permalink)  
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but memory says Bottas is already signed for next season - it's Lewis that's unsigned. If nothing else, Lewis's bargaining position has gotten massively worse in the last 48 hours.
Bottas has signed a contract to be paid to race next season - that doesn’t mean get gets to race in a Mercedes, or at all. As one of the commentators said this afternoon, contracts don’t mean much in F1 - its results. Look at the drivers already promoted and demoted this season - all with agents and contracts.
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Old 6th Dec 2020, 21:35
  #8949 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ORAC View Post
Bottas has signed a contract to be paid to race next season - that doesn’t mean get gets to race in a Mercedes, or at all. As one of the commentators said this afternoon, contracts don’t mean much in F1 - its results. Look at the drivers already promoted and demoted this season - all with agents and contracts.
Perez had a contract for 2021 at Racing Point... can always be bought out a contract, or some clause.
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Old 6th Dec 2020, 22:02
  #8950 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ORAC View Post
Bottas has signed a contract to be paid to race next season - that doesn’t mean get gets to race in a Mercedes, or at all. As one of the commentators said this afternoon, contracts don’t mean much in F1 - its results.
Yea, I know - but that would be close to record if Mercedes dumps Bottas so soon after signing him (yes, I recall Kimi being paid an F1 salary by Ferrari while he was driving rally cars ).
Do driver salaries count against the cost caps? If so, that could really cramp Mercedes style going forward if they do dump him.




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Old 6th Dec 2020, 22:22
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I know this is pretty much unthinkable but what about Mercedes spending 39 of the reported 40 mn Lewis is asking on the 21/22 car and get the last million toward Russel... ?
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Old 6th Dec 2020, 23:19
  #8952 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by atakacs View Post
I know this is pretty much unthinkable but what about Mercedes spending 39 of the reported 40 mn Lewis is asking on the 21/22 car and get the last million toward Russel... ?
It would be a net loss to Mercedes, because a significant chunk (more than £40m) of the external sponsorship that even Mercedes relies on depends on having Lewis in the team. Count the company names on the car (and the racewear)...

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Old 6th Dec 2020, 23:21
  #8953 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by tdracer View Post
Do driver salaries count against the cost caps?
AIUI driver salaries are excluded from the cap.

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Old 7th Dec 2020, 00:30
  #8954 (permalink)  
 
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Mercedes got one thing right this weekend, their faith in George R.

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Old 7th Dec 2020, 01:21
  #8955 (permalink)  
 
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Russell did not get a penalty but why would he be peril of one? He is not in control of the tires installed. I see the team got a 20K fine.
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Old 7th Dec 2020, 01:45
  #8956 (permalink)  
 
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First of all, hats of to George. I was never a big fan of Bottas but Russell just demoted Valteri to a secobd tier driver. Bottas does not deserve to be in such a brilliant car.

Russel made only one mistake, he made a mistake braking at his pit stop. Other than that, awesome performance.

checo also awesome! He so very much deserves to be in the Red Bull next year! Albon is finished, Bottas should be history too.

Charles went over enthousiastic into Perez and ruined Max’s race. Should have been a Mercedes 1-2 from that moment on. However, the silver arrows really screwed up. Nevertheless, Perez was my driver of the day!!!
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Old 7th Dec 2020, 07:41
  #8957 (permalink)  
 
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“Two esses two ell” Russell is the man.

Have we heard any comments from Lewis, (with ‘mild symptoms’ according to Toto)?
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Old 7th Dec 2020, 08:01
  #8958 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by SaulGoodman View Post
I was never a big fan of Bottas but Russell just demoted Valteri to a secobd tier driver. Bottas does not deserve to be in such a brilliant car.
Let's not get carried away. Valtiri is a very good driver, as he showed repeatedly in his initial time with Williams. In 2014 he scored six podiums (two 2nds), massively out-performing 00his team-mate Phillipe Massa - that's why Mercedes paid a lot to extract him when Rosberg bottled it at the end of 2016. Valtiri is a good driver, but on the basis of this one race (very small sample) it looks possible that previous impressions may have been right and George is an even better one.

That Mercedes had to make that pit stop should be obvious. If the race had continued without any safety cars they were safe, but had they NOT changed they would hqve been vulnerable in the event of a safety car restart, with cold & worn hard tyres being mugged by anyone who changed to fresher, softer ones (as we saw). It was very unfortunate for George, but on the other hand it gave him an excellent opportunity to show a masterpiece performance of skills several times. Without the mercedes screw-up we wouldn't have had the chance to see how he could STILL look good for a win by dint of a Lewis-like charge.

And all this after so few hours in the car that he'd never get a type-rating. Yes, he missed out on his first pot, but George will be around for many years, and he will have plenty of chances for pots if the fate allow. Everything that happened this weekend has just increased his chances of getting the next available 1st class seat.

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Old 7th Dec 2020, 08:02
  #8959 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by jolihokistix View Post
“Two esses two ell” Russell is the man.

Have we heard any comments from Lewis, (with ‘mild symptoms’ according to Toto)?
Haven’t heard or seen anything from him, but given how Toto described him on Saturday, I can’t see that he’ll be fully fit by Thursday to be driving FP1+2 on Friday. Also needs to produce a -ve test too.

And i don’t think leaving it til that last minute would help anyone. Russell’s clearly good enough in the car instead of Lewis, the championships aren’t at stake, Merc might be better making a pretty early decision to go with Russell and allow him as much time to prepare as possible and spend time with the engineers discussing setup etc, rather than a last minute thing.
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Old 7th Dec 2020, 08:07
  #8960 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ORAC View Post
Bottas has signed a contract to be paid to race next season - that doesn’t mean get gets to race in a Mercedes, or at all. As one of the commentators said this afternoon, contracts don’t mean much in F1 - its results. Look at the drivers already promoted and demoted this season - all with agents and contracts.
Just a thought, but how about Mercedes engineer a swap deal with Williams for next season?

Williams, under new ownership, get an experienced and proven F1 driver in Bottas whose knowledge can help their development a la Vettel at Racing Point. Merc get a rising star who can be groomed as Hamilton's heir apparent.
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