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Formula 1

Old 15th Oct 2020, 18:08
  #8621 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by WB627 View Post
I would think they would partner with someone, Mugen springs to mind as does Ilmor, Cosworth and even Ricardo.
Wasn't Red Bull doing something like this the last year or two - before the switch to Honda - with their Renault engines? Taking the basic package from Renault but then doing the detail work themselves?
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Old 15th Oct 2020, 22:37
  #8622 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by PDR1 View Post
Given that Ilmor are the Mercedes F1 engine supplier I doubt they'd be that interested in a partnership.

There was orignally some hope that Aston Martin's engine department might step up to this plate, but even if they are handed the Honda product as a going concern we are still left with the issues that (a) it's a very big step and (b) Stroll's purchase of Aston Martin might reduce any interest they had in such an arrangement.

PDR
It's complicated, Ilmor Engineering Ltd - Company History | Ilmor Engineering . I think that Mercedes AMG High Performance Powertrains was Ilmore, but there is a new Ilnore also based in Brixworth that does the same sort of engineering that the old Ilmor used to and is independent from Merc https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilmor


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Old 18th Oct 2020, 09:16
  #8623 (permalink)  
 
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This weeks Economist looks at the records of all the F1 drivers since 1950 comparing their records including what opposition the faced and how good the drivers were cp the cars they drove. The graphic is https://www.economist.com/graphic-de...in-motor-sport
They rank them as follows:-

Fangio
Clark
Prost
Stewart
Schumacher
Hamilton
Ascari
Senna

Schumacher shades (just ) Hamilton as in parts of his career the opposition were much stronger than they are today

" Yet on a per-race basis, the greats of yesteryear beat both modern stars. Three of the model’s top four drivers stopped racing by 1973; the leader, the Argentine Juan Manuel Fangio, won five titles in the 1950s.These pioneers had short careers. Fangio started just 51 races, to Mr Schumacher’s 306. However, the model is impressed by them, because the impact of cars relative to drivers has grown over time. On average, it assigns drivers in the 1950s 58% of their teams’ points; today, that share is 19%.

Fangio, who was a mechanic by training and won titles using cars from four different firms, was known as “the master”.

The masters of modern F1 are engineers who sit behind laptops, not steering wheels"
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Old 18th Oct 2020, 09:42
  #8624 (permalink)  
 
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Stirling Moss???
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Old 18th Oct 2020, 10:01
  #8625 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by DType View Post
Stirling Moss???
only 16 wins - pretty much the same as Button
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Old 18th Oct 2020, 15:36
  #8626 (permalink)  
 
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A peculiar list, to say the least!...No issue with Fangio and Clark at the top, but Senna only at Number 10?
To me, the true masters are those that could take a less then perfect car, and still win with it..
Fangio, Clark and Senna could all do that...(and Moss...Monaco 1961)
as for the rest...in a second rate car, would they even score points?
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Old 18th Oct 2020, 15:54
  #8627 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Asturias56 View Post
The masters of modern F1 are engineers who sit behind laptops, not steering wheels"
This is (of course) utter twaddle when looked at in any detail. Many of these heros of yesteryear were bubble-butted playboys who had no conception of the workloads (physical and mental) required to drive a modern car. Those motorised dog-carts could barely generate a whole G in any direction because they tyres couldn't do it. Drivers were subjected to such low stresses that they didn't even need to wear seat belts. Modern F1 drivers (and F2/GP3/Endurance etc) need to be at the absolute peak of physical fitness just to survive the environment for 2 hours. Sport scientists all agree that F1 drivers have the highest levels of physical fitness of all athletes because they need to be able to cope with the extreme stresses in hot climates whilst wearing five layers of clothes. They don't get extra cooling by running in a cool breeze whilst wearing little more than a pair of knickers. sweating away the excess heat. And while these f1 athletes are enduring this workout in a sauna they have to sustain blood oxygen levels sufficient to support high levels or mental activity, acquiring and processing vast amounts of information, making critical decisions and formulating strategies and evaluating effectiveness constantly. It's no coincidence that when F1 drivers can be bothered to enter extreme sporting events they generall score in the top couple of percent even though they don't change their training programme to suit. They just pop out, do the event and then carry on with the rest of their programme.

In comparison Fangio and Ascari were just out for a but of a sunday afternoon drive. They're not even vaguely in the same league.

[IMHO]

PDR
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Old 18th Oct 2020, 15:55
  #8628 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ATSA1 View Post
A peculiar list, to say the least!...No issue with Fangio and Clark at the top, but Senna only at Number 10?
To me, the true masters are those that could take a less then perfect car, and still win with it..
Fangio, Clark and Senna could all do that...(and Moss...Monaco 1961)
as for the rest...in a second rate car, would they even score points?
Hamilton not only scored points in inferior cars - he won races in them. Repeatedly.

PDR
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Old 18th Oct 2020, 17:26
  #8629 (permalink)  
 
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Hamilton has had the good fortune to always be in a very good F1 car.
.Granted in the lower formulae, he often drove less than top notch cars and got some impressive results,

But in F1, he has always had a better than average car...which he has used to its full advantage.

He deserves to be a lot higher on the list!...But Senna is still my number one...truly gifted..
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Old 18th Oct 2020, 18:33
  #8630 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ATSA1 View Post
Hamilton has had the good fortune to always be in a very good F1 car.
Sorry, but this just isn't true. People keep citing this claim but must have severely damaged memories or something.

The 2009 Maclaren was a complete dog that could barely make the middle of the mid-field, yet he won two races, got four poles and five podiums with it. The 2010 and 2011 cars weren't much better, but he got 3 wins in both years and 5/9 podiums respectively. the 2012 car was reasonably fast, but hideously unreliable. If anything Hamilton is the one who has shown an ability to drive around a bad car as long as the car at least does the same thing twice.

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Old 18th Oct 2020, 19:56
  #8631 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by PDR1 View Post
Sorry, but this just isn't true. People keep citing this claim but must have severely damaged memories or something.

The 2009 Maclaren was a complete dog that could barely make the middle of the mid-field, yet he won two races, got four poles and five podiums with it. The 2010 and 2011 cars weren't much better, but he got 3 wins in both years and 5/9 podiums respectively. the 2012 car was reasonably fast, but hideously unreliable. If anything Hamilton is the one who has shown an ability to drive around a bad car as long as the car at least does the same thing twice.

PDR
Agree, & it's also not "good fortune", as has been corrected ad nauseum: team managers don't go out & grab the first person that fits in the car, they spend years monitoring young drivers, indeed many sponsor & support from an early age, based on the talent shown racing in those formulae.
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Old 18th Oct 2020, 21:15
  #8632 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by alfaman View Post
Agree, & it's also not "good fortune", as has been corrected ad nauseum: team managers don't go out & grab the first person that fits in the car, they spend years monitoring young drivers, indeed many sponsor & support from an early age, based on the talent shown racing in those formulae.
Ok. I know this is sacrilegious to F1 fans, but wouldn’t it be better if all the cars were the same and you could just watch the skill of the drivers instead of periods of dominance for one team followed by years of dominance from another team. It does tend to get a tad boring. Mainly watch it for the collisions and mistakes which spices it up.
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Old 18th Oct 2020, 21:33
  #8633 (permalink)  
 
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Yes.
You're right.....
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Old 18th Oct 2020, 21:43
  #8634 (permalink)  
 
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Comparing drivers across different time periods is an interesting mental exercise, but it's ultimately a fools game. The skills and abilities needed are too different to make meaningful comparisons.
Being fast in today's F1 car requires a significantly different skill set than it did even 20 years ago, and isn't even in the ballpark with what Fangio or Clark drove. Not to mention the safety differences - being a great driver in the 50's, 60's, and 70's had the prerequisite of staying alive - which wasn't easily done - so the risk tolerance was completely different.
BTW, Hamilton is on record as naming Fangio as the best of all time (as did Schumacher).
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Old 18th Oct 2020, 22:03
  #8635 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by highflyer40 View Post
Ok. I know this is sacrilegious to F1 fans, but wouldn’t it be better if all the cars were the same and you could just watch the skill of the drivers instead of periods of dominance for one team followed by years of dominance from another team..
If that's what dingles your dangle there are plenty of classes which use standard cars and engines - some of them (eg F4) produce some exciting wheel-to-wheel racing, but the speeds are lower and the overall thrill level just isn't there. This sort of sentiment also has an implied assumption that cars are either faster or slower (a single dimensional variable) when the reality is very different. Cars can be fast in a straight line, or in high-speed corners, or in low-speed corners. Cars can be better or worse on their tyres. Cars can respond well or badly to braking, or to crosswinds, or to turbulent air. Cars have a range of different characteristics which the skilled driver finds the best way to exploit or mitigate to best effect on each circuit. In 20010/11/12 the red bull car was demonstrably slower than several other cars, and routinely show low numbers in the speed traps because Newey focussed his interest on maintaining speed through medium/slow corners and ensuring the cars could put the power down early on the exit. In 2014/15 the fastest cars in a straight line were usually the Williams (people forget that when Hamilton was on the podium in Abu Dhabi in 2014 the drivers on either side of him were Massa and Bottas, both driving for Williams). The cars were pretty rubbish in the corners but were very slippery, and their drivers developed tactics that exploited these strengths and mitigated the weaknesses.

If all you want is wheel-to-wheel in identical cars watch Formula 4 - it's screened free-to-air on (I think) ITV4 and can be quite fun to watch, but it lacks the extreme technology of F1.

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Old 19th Oct 2020, 06:00
  #8636 (permalink)  
 
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I wonder if we are going to get any kind of F1 season next year?

Or is it just going to be hastily put together at the last minute?
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Old 19th Oct 2020, 12:27
  #8637 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by highflyer40 View Post
Ok. I know this is sacrilegious to F1 fans, but wouldn’t it be better if all the cars were the same and you could just watch the skill of the drivers instead of periods of dominance for one team followed by years of dominance from another team. It does tend to get a tad boring. Mainly watch it for the collisions and mistakes which spices it up.
Not really, because that wouldn't be F1: there are plenty of one make formulae out there already, indeed most of the current crop of F1 drivers will have battled their way through them on their route to F1. They can be very entertaining, but can also be processional, it depends on the circumstances. I don't get why people expect any sport to be a non stop festival of thrills & spills, that's not how any sport works. There have always been periods of relative stability, & dominance by a particular team, Mercedes will either walk away, or sink back into the pack, as Red Bull, Ferrari, Maclaren, Williams, Renault etc all have over the years: it's up to the rest to beat them. It sometimes seems its only boring when it's not the speakers team that's dominating...
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Old 19th Oct 2020, 14:02
  #8638 (permalink)  
 
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Even the British Touring Car Championship had a couple of incredibly dull seasons when the number of teams competing was reduced (I can't remember why) and some of the teams that did take part were running three cars.
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Old 19th Oct 2020, 18:04
  #8639 (permalink)  
 
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I believe it is a TEAM sport. There are a number of key components to a team, the management, the engineers, the drivers, the chassis and the engine. One would expect the best team to win and that is how it should be. If it became one make, they would all be driving Ferraris, or Ferrari would leave. How much fun would that be?
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Old 20th Oct 2020, 12:02
  #8640 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by WB627 View Post
I believe it is a TEAM sport. There are a number of key components to a team, the management, the engineers, the drivers, the chassis and the engine. One would expect the best team to win and that is how it should be. If it became one make, they would all be driving Ferraris, or Ferrari would leave. How much fun would that be?

F1 without Ferrari? Bloody marvelous........................ they think they own the sport
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