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Old 31st Aug 2020, 22:17
  #8341 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by atakacs View Post
Actually there is a historic precedent with Renault, who were allowed more evolution to their engine than per regulation some seasons ago (I'm sure PDR1 will come up with the exact details).
Wasn't that re-entry based rather than a failing established team?
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Old 31st Aug 2020, 22:26
  #8342 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by atakacs View Post
Actually there is a historic precedent with Renault, who were allowed more evolution to their engine than per regulation some seasons ago (I'm sure PDR1 will come up with the exact details).
Renault were allowed to make and extra performance-related engine upgrade in 2010 when the rules actually required no changes from the 2009 build standard, because they were running at a major power disadvantage.

But ferrari's problem is more than just power - they are the slowest of the ferrari-powered cars. So allowing an engine upgrade (even if they could produce one) would not be a panecea.

PDR
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Old 31st Aug 2020, 23:12
  #8343 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by 747 jock View Post
But surely his phrase of:

Means that he doesn't think that anything he does will have an effect in America so why kneel and expect others to do the same if it won't have any effect?
Ok so if it wasn't just a reference to going on strike like the athletes in America. why did he take the knee in Spa?
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Old 1st Sep 2020, 00:48
  #8344 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by PDR1 View Post
If you only want to watch the sport why do you even switch to the F1 channel before 14:09? You know when the race starts. It always starts at the same time. If hearing someone else's viewpoint risks so much damage to your snowflake sensibilities then you can just turn on when the race starts. I assume you can tell the time?

We have a born & bred british driver in a team based in the UK with largely british staff and they are completely dominating a sport - not through privillage or patronage, but simply through raw ability and hard work. Did you ever see Jamaicans complaining about how Usain Bolt made sprinting boring?

Guys like you disgust me - you drag the country down. No wonder it's so hard to instil any pride in the next generations.

PDR

Because Sky in their wisdom have lumped all the extra garbage into your downloads even though the race is all I set to record and the track walk, it records about 10 programmes when all i want is qually and the race, it used to just record just those at the start of their service. so the race alone comes with an hour plus of recording before and after. I am often not in when it starts.
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Old 1st Sep 2020, 02:12
  #8345 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Bruce No1 View Post
Is it simply because this won't generate as much publicity for him?
It isn't about publicity for Hamilton but for Liberty Media. Just watch Chase Carey put in his two cents on everything. It is all designed around money and more viewers. Hamilton is just the bait.
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Old 1st Sep 2020, 06:16
  #8346 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by PDR1 View Post
Renault were allowed to make and extra performance-related engine upgrade in 2010 when the rules actually required no changes from the 2009 build standard, because they were running at a major power disadvantage.

But ferrari's problem is more than just power - they are the slowest of the ferrari-powered cars. So allowing an engine upgrade (even if they could produce one) would not be a panecea.
That is indeed true but without an engine "reset" I don't see how they could regain a modicum of competitivity. And the problem goes beyond Ferrari themselves - Gene Haas muss be livid signing those engine supply cheques. As for the Tetra Pack gang I don't know how much of the bill they have to foot but I don't see them doing it for long, despite signing the Concorde agreement.
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Old 1st Sep 2020, 06:54
  #8347 (permalink)  
 
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 Some people were having fun, judging by their radio input.
https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/a...t4pdzJdAl.html
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Old 1st Sep 2020, 09:39
  #8348 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by NutLoose View Post
Because Sky in their wisdom have lumped all the extra garbage into your downloads even though the race is all I set to record and the track walk, it records about 10 programmes when all i want is qually and the race, it used to just record just those at the start of their service. so the race alone comes with an hour plus of recording before and after. I am often not in when it starts.

...hours and hours of it, and yet you only vent apoplexy over a couple of minutes spent talking to one driver about a significant issue of the day. I also record it on sky, and I also see hours of stuff I have very little interest in. But I recognise that to justify the huge fees F1 charged for the rights Sky have to maximise the breadth of the audience they are appealing to, so they add stuff about the countries they visit, the lives and lifestyles of the participants, basic "this is what tyre compound means" plus lots of discussion and banter between their presenters which ranges from interesting to utterly, suicide-inducingly banal. Others find this interesting viewing, some find this draws them in to watch the sport itself. It isn't for me, but if that's what it takes to subsidise my sport then I can stand the trivial inconvenience it presents if it's subsidising something I enjoy, because I can fast-forward through the guff while settling in my seat.

Is it that discussions on endemic and systemic racism make you feel uncomfortable or simply that you have yet to master the fast-forward button on the remote? If the latter then I'm sure we can arrange some remedial classes in basic remote control handset operation for you, but be advised that if you only have an EASA remote control license and Sky type rating you will not be able to exercise those privileges in the UK after the end of the year. If the latter then I'm afraid you are part of the problem that has spawned these events, so perhaps you might usefully spend the time reflecting on that instead of spouting about it.

YMMV,

PDR

Last edited by PDR1; 1st Sep 2020 at 09:53.
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Old 1st Sep 2020, 10:01
  #8349 (permalink)  
 
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I agree with PDR1 that giving Ferrari's power unit more HP/Watts will not solve their woes..but how has the chassis/aeros turned to a crock of animal waste?
How a car can actually go slower at the same track one year on is a bit of a mystery to me, given that the regs havent changed much..
But this problem isnt new...Back in 1998, World Champion Jacques Villeneuve was actually lapped in his Williams by the McLarens, with the Mecedes/Ilmor in the back... Also remember Hamilton finishing a lowly 16th at Silverstone, the year after winning his first championship, and winning by a whole minute at the same track...
But Ferrari have got a dog slow car, that is going to get hammered (excuse the pun!) at Monza this weekend...and not just by the Black Arrows either!
Then watch the heads roll!!

Last edited by ATSA1; 1st Sep 2020 at 10:41.
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Old 1st Sep 2020, 12:31
  #8350 (permalink)  
 
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Ferrari’s car this year is clearly a major issue. One that needs fixing urgently.

But for the last several years, Ferrari have been comfortably 2nd or 3rd fastest (best) team, usually 2nd, ahead of Red Bull.

Ferrari’s problem is such short-termism.
If they’re not winning they replace the team principle. Then the sporting or technical directors. Then the team principle again. Then the head of Ferrari. Then the team principle again!

None of them even have time to rearrange the desk in the office nevermind effect any change. They need to make a change, give it time to actually have an effect. I think they had 3 team principles in a single year, one of which was basically a car dealership principle.

We never saw Dietrich Mateschitz or Helmut Marco kicking out Christian Horner or Adrian Newey because they weren’t the best team.

Ultimately you can’t always be the best team all the time. Striving for better while accepting that you will inevitably not always be the best is ok. Otherwise you’re delusional and you’ll never get the results you’re after, which is Ferrari’s problem right now.
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Old 1st Sep 2020, 13:48
  #8351 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by LlamaFarmer View Post
Ferrari’s car this year is clearly a major issue. One that needs fixing urgently.

But for the last several years, Ferrari have been comfortably 2nd or 3rd fastest (best) team, usually 2nd, ahead of Red Bull.
...right up to the week the other teams started asking the FIA pointed "technical clarification" questions on the subject of fuel flow monitoring strategies, sampling intervals and latencies. Then suddenly in a matter of hours the car plummeted down the time sheets like a signwriter falling off a double-decker bus. Spooky, huh?

Actually they started the pre-season testing looking pretty clever aerodynamically, until observers realised how the package worked and how limited its scope for further development was. But while that was still to be seen the other teams (especially the Brackley Boys) went home and had a hard think, bringing fresh design solutions to the track a mere two weeks later. Same with overheating tyres, low-speed circuit performance etc etc. I think THIS is the Maranello weakness and (more than anything else) the Mercedes strength - the speed of solving problems and bringing new design solutions to the car to remove weaknesses. Lewis made an interesting comment after Spa when a journalist asked him about the "good night of celebrations ahead". he said they don't do that. Even after a 1-2 win they go into the debrief and look at what DIDN'T work to see what they can do to make it better. The outcome of that debrief is already being studied by the backroom team before bed on Sunday. He said they celebrate after winning the championship - not before. I suspect it's that ferocity of focus which is the culture introduced by Ross Brawn (read his book!) and built on by Toto Wolfe that is the real "secret" of the Mercedes persistent success.

PDR
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Old 1st Sep 2020, 20:12
  #8352 (permalink)  
 
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Excellent... but are those stalks legal?
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Old 1st Sep 2020, 21:15
  #8353 (permalink)  
 
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`Tis I,LESS CAR GO,Leclerc`.....
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Old 2nd Sep 2020, 05:00
  #8354 (permalink)  
 
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If they’re not winning they replace the team principle. Then the sporting or technical directors. Then the team principle again. Then the head of Ferrari. Then the team principle again!
I am a dyed in the wool Ferrari fan and have always been so. The current mess makes me want to cry. But it strikes me that they were at their most successful when a good portion of the team's senior figures were not Italian. Schumacher - German, Todt - French, Brawn - English, Byrne - South African.
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Old 2nd Sep 2020, 06:50
  #8355 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by PDR1 View Post
...right up to the week the other teams started asking the FIA pointed "technical clarification" questions on the subject of fuel flow monitoring strategies, sampling intervals and latencies. Then suddenly in a matter of hours the car plummeted down the time sheets like a signwriter falling off a double-decker bus. Spooky, huh?

Actually they started the pre-season testing looking pretty clever aerodynamically, until observers realised how the package worked and how limited its scope for further development was. But while that was still to be seen the other teams (especially the Brackley Boys) went home and had a hard think, bringing fresh design solutions to the track a mere two weeks later. Same with overheating tyres, low-speed circuit performance etc etc. I think THIS is the Maranello weakness and (more than anything else) the Mercedes strength - the speed of solving problems and bringing new design solutions to the car to remove weaknesses. Lewis made an interesting comment after Spa when a journalist asked him about the "good night of celebrations ahead". he said they don't do that. Even after a 1-2 win they go into the debrief and look at what DIDN'T work to see what they can do to make it better. The outcome of that debrief is already being studied by the backroom team before bed on Sunday. He said they celebrate after winning the championship - not before. I suspect it's that ferocity of focus which is the culture introduced by Ross Brawn (read his book!) and built on by Toto Wolfe that is the real "secret" of the Mercedes persistent success.

PDR
Are you implying that Ferrari were using their cheaty-engine for several years then?

I link it only to their very high speed and excellent performance of 2019, particularly the latter half.

Since 2010, they got four 2nd places, four 3rd places and one 4th place in the Constructors championship.
Most of those 2nd places were in more recent years to Mercedes dominance.

Ferrari's issues are not linked in any way to Mercedes though so why most of your post is about Mercedes I'm not sure.


I think running way down out of the points in Monza will be what causes heads to roll. And if not Monza, then there is Imola and Mugello too. The embarrassment will be too much and changes will have to be made.
But when they do, they have to allow time for the change to work. They can't just expect a miracle, only to fire the replacement at the end of the year because there was no improvement.
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Old 2nd Sep 2020, 07:31
  #8356 (permalink)  
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flyer517,

Ability, knowledge and experience moves around and levels up when people move between teams. There is reportedly a lot of poaching and movement between backroom and garage staff between all the teams in “motorsport valley” as people don’t have to move home. Binotto admitted they have a problem attracting people to move to Maranello.

They’ve reportedly just failed to persuade Andy Cowell, who has just left Mercedes, to join them to work on the engine.

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Old 2nd Sep 2020, 08:30
  #8357 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by LlamaFarmer View Post
Are you implying that Ferrari were using their cheaty-engine for several years then?
I suspect that they have been moving in this direction since 2017 where the car became progressively more competitive. In 2016/17 they were gaining benefit from their innovative double-battery architecture, but that was flattering an otherwise uncompetitive car.

Ferrari's issues are not linked in any way to Mercedes though so why most of your post is about Mercedes I'm not sure.
Because I am suggesting that the root of their problems is greater than the narrow technical issue - it is the management culture and their core approach to racing, their strategy process (in his book Ross Brawn defines strategy as a process, but it took two or three reads before I got what he actually meant). Mercedes has been the most successful F1 winning machine since they started work on this new formula in about 2011. On the track they have been utterly dominant since 2014, as we all know. The reasons behind this are not the narrow technical ones of more power and a better car - they are the culture and strategy process that PRODUCES and MAINTAINS that race-winning car/driver/team. Ferrari have sometimes produced a car which was able to compete for a race or two but they have been unable to sustain it. They produce a good car or engine as a one-of effort, focusing on the product rather than focusing on developing a PROCESS that will naturally tend to deliver competitive performance.

Mercedes have done this and it clearly works. They have a bad weekend and come back stronger, not weaker. If Ferrari are to return to prominence (which I'm sure they will) they need to look at the culture of the competitive team(s) and learn from it. Otherwise all they can ever aspire to is short periods of technical advantage - a few races, but not a championship.

All IMHO of course - YMMV.

PDR
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Old 2nd Sep 2020, 15:24
  #8358 (permalink)  
 
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Perhaps Mercedes inherited the culture form Brawn GP when they bought the team from him? He did not immediately leave the team but stayed for another four seasons and undoubtedly left a fine legacy for Toto Wolff to build on.
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Old 2nd Sep 2020, 15:40
  #8359 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by LlamaFarmer View Post
Are you implying that Ferrari were using their cheaty-engine for several years then?
I think there is little doubt that in 2019 they managed to somehow go around the fuel flow limits. And that all Ferrari engines lost a lot of power just after Spa and even more a the beginning of 2020 after the infamous "secret" FIA settlement.
Their issue is clearly not only with the engine but they are running such a power deficit that there is no way they can be competitive before 2021, unless permitted some sort of "reset".
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Old 2nd Sep 2020, 20:25
  #8360 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Bruce No1 View Post
As Hamilton is so passionate about black lives being taken, I wonder why he's not campaigning for or wearing T-shirts with comments about the millions dying of starvation in Africa.
Is it simply because this won't generate as much publicity for him?
Because it is the issue du jour
​​​What a silly comparison. Do you pop up in cancer charity events saying 'all diseases matter?'
Millions are starving across the world by the way, reading from your playbook.
When in doubt, what about
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