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Old 1st Oct 2017, 07:33
  #6101 (permalink)  
 
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Please pardon my ignorance, but as someone who enjoys watching the racing but knows little about all the recent regulations, I have a quick question. If a driver is involved in an accident which is not their fault but their engine is essentially destroyed in the accident, does the loss of that engine count towards their quota of available engines?
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Old 1st Oct 2017, 08:38
  #6102 (permalink)  
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Well you just found out - Vettel just ran into Stroll on the victory lap and wrecked the back of his car which looks like a new gearbox in the next race and the commentators say it will be a 5 place grid drop penalty.
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Old 1st Oct 2017, 09:04
  #6103 (permalink)  
 
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Not sure ORAC, just watched that peculiar in-lap incident again. Can't really see who moved into who, they both seemed to move slowly towards each other. Vettel was in front, but does seem to drift left, Stroll seems to not quite stick to the inner 'line'. But the race had finished, so I wonder what happens now?

Great day for Red Bull! Good drives from both.
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Old 1st Oct 2017, 09:13
  #6104 (permalink)  
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No driver penalties or stewards inquiry - the race was over, but if the gearbox needs changing it will be a 5 place grid penalty.

As to the incident, Vettel blames Stroll, but from Vettel’s car camera, my impression is that Vettel went left and ran his rear left tyre over Stroll’s front right. Did he leave him room to brake or move right? Doesn’t look like it, but even if he did why would Stroll be looking in his mirror? They weren’t racing and as the car behind Vettel should have just stayed right and kept clear off his line.

Self inflicted injury - and he might pick up driver points for taking the lift back on another car........
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Old 1st Oct 2017, 09:22
  #6105 (permalink)  
 
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ORAC, the stewards have the power of award penalties for post-race incidents. It has happened in the past.
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Old 1st Oct 2017, 09:29
  #6106 (permalink)  
 
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Great race for Red Bull. Hamilton did what he needed to do for the championship.
Thing that got me with Vettel was why he removed the steering wheel and took it with him. as I recall, this is a major issue for the stewards, as all cars must be left with as raced. Could this be a further penalty for Vettel?
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Old 1st Oct 2017, 09:32
  #6107 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by WestofEMA View Post
Could this be a further penalty for Vettel?
Except Vettel drives for Ferrari . . .
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Old 1st Oct 2017, 10:33
  #6108 (permalink)  
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https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/h...no-action.html
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Old 1st Oct 2017, 15:25
  #6109 (permalink)  
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Very strange. Certainly from the Ferrari on-board, it looked as though he just closed to the left as he overtook but from behind, the scenario looked a mixture of the two.
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Old 7th Oct 2017, 07:18
  #6110 (permalink)  
 
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Isn't the F1 penalty merry go round getting a bit silly now? Alonso gets a 35 place grid penalty today. So, with 20 places available on the grid, where will he start from tomorrow? Korea?
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Old 7th Oct 2017, 12:23
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where will he start from tomorrow? Korea?
Now you're just exaggerating...it will be somewhere around 612th..according to Ted Kravitz.

By the way, if Nico Rosberg says, 'For sure' just one more time as Sky's guest pundit, I swear I'll scream.
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Old 7th Oct 2017, 13:29
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Originally Posted by clareprop View Post
Now you're just exaggerating...it will be somewhere around 612th..according to Ted Kravitz.

By the way, if Nico Rosberg says, 'For sure' just one more time as Sky's guest pundit, I swear I'll scream.
For sure
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Old 7th Oct 2017, 14:04
  #6113 (permalink)  
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'for sure' was adopted by F1 jockeys at least 5 years ago for sure.

I noticed it then and have done ever since.
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Old 7th Oct 2017, 14:28
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Originally Posted by Hokulea View Post
Please pardon my ignorance, but as someone who enjoys watching the racing but knows little about all the recent regulations, I have a quick question. If a driver is involved in an accident which is not their fault but their engine is essentially destroyed in the accident, does the loss of that engine count towards their quota of available engines?
Firstly you need to consider "power units" (the accepted term for all six controlled elements of the hybrid engine system) from gearboxes, because they have completely separate rules.

Gearboxes
You can use as many gearboxes as you like. No, really - I meant that. The restriction on gearboxes is that you must not change gearboxes BETWEEN the finish of one race and the start of the next until that gearbox has done a specified number of races (which IIRC is currently five). If a gearbox fails or is damaged DURING a race AND the car doesn't finish the race then the gearbox can be changed without penalty provided you can convince the FIA technical delegate that the gearbox is damaged/failed. After five races you can change it anyway. But if you find the gearbox has a problem AFTER race 1 and replace it for race 2 you get a penalty even though it's only your second box of the year. If you replace a gearbox while the car is in parque firme (ie between qualifying and the race) you must start from the pit lane.

The reason this was done was that F1 was developed some seriously clever stuff in gearbox tech. The gearboxes are the size of a small box of chocolates, weigh less than a very light thing that's been dieting for decades, handle over a thousand horses, change gears in milliseconds without ANY interruption to the torque flow and only use clutches to pull away from a standing start. To minimise power loss they go into the next gear before coming out of the previous one - so for a finite period of time they are simultaneously in two gears. This is partly down to having wide dog gates, but mainly due to extreme precision in the internal sensors, actuation systems and software. Some of this stuff has applications outside racing, so the FOCA decided to frame the rules to encourage the teams to mature this tech so that it was reliable enough for non-racing uses.

Note that you can swap out your race gearbox for free-practice running provided you put the same one back and don't "service" it while it's out.

Vettel's problem was that his crash happened after he'd finished the race, so if the box was damaged and needed replacement he would incur a penalty. The team are not allowed to strip and inspect the box (it has an FIA wired seal on it), so they must make all their decisions based on external inspections and rig testing. They sent the box back to Italy, and the factory determined that it was undamaged. Hence no penalty at Suzuka.

Power Units
Power usnits are made up of a number of components, six of which are "controlled" to the extent that you are only allowed to use a certain number of them. The components are:

1 The Internal Combustion Engine (the bit with the pistons, con rods, camshaftes etc) - called the ICE

2. The Motor-Generator Unit/Kinetic (the bit that recovers energy from the gearbox under breaking and re-delivers energy into the gearbox when the KERS is used) - called the MGU/K

3. The Motor-Generator Unit/Heat (the bit that recovers energy from the turbine of the turbocharger and also spins up the compressor of the turbocharger on the overun both to eliminate turbo lag and to turn it into a pure supercharger. It also regulates the turbo so that it can be run much closer to (and indeed right in the middle of) the surge island without surgung. If you think back to a Pratt & Witney R4360 turbo-compound engine this works in essentially the same way, but uses electric transmission rather than gears & shafts - it is a damned clever bit of kit that's called the MGU/H

4. The turbocharger. Largely self-explanitory, but it looks nothing like any turbo you'd see elsewhere. The details of this difference are a large part of why the Mercedes PU was so much more powerful and efficient that the others when the new formula came in in 2014 (this post is already verbose enough, but if you want more on that just ask).

5. The Energy Store. This is a huge Lithium-Cobalt-Polymer battery that stores and re-delivers the energy harvested by the MGUs. It runs at a couple of thousand volts DC (which is why the crews all wear "marigold" gloves unless the car's electrical safety light is on) and can deliver something like 250bhp for 30 seconds, although only 160bhp of that is allowed to be sent into the MGU/K for boring historical reasons that get a bit involved.

6. The Control Electronics - this is the box of electric string, software and magic white smoke that controls and manages all the hybrid functions.

IIRC the number you're allowed of each is currently the number of races divided by five, rounded down to a whole number - so that's four for this season. I think I remember hearing that it becomes the number of races divided by SIX from next year (so they will only be allowed three of each controlled component for the whole year!). These components may be removed & refitted, but theu have FIA seals and cannot be overhauled or repaired within the season.

They can change when they like while the car is out of parque firme (ie before the start of Quali 1 and after the end of the race), they can mix & match whole components and take replacements, but they can only use the total number specified. So if they break MGU/K number three in race 12 they are free to fit MGU/K number 1 or 2 (assuming they still work) without penalty. But if they end up with four U/S examples taking the fifth will incur penalties. Some parts incur bigger penalties than others, and they all get added up for the next race.

Originally penalties stayed "active" until they had been "used up", but this was changed when it became clear it was unfairly penalising the smaller teams who never qualified far enough forward to use any of them. So then they decided that penalties weren't carried forward to the next race - so the worst that can happen is you start at the back of the grid. They had to tweak this a bit more when it was abused, but that's down in the weeds and not worth discussing.

Now that means that while gearbox penalties are pretty immediate (ie they come in for the current or next race) the PU penalties don't really become apparent until they get into the last third of the season (unless you have a honda PU of course) because it's only when they take the fifth of something that they get the penalty.

Phew - more than you wanted to know, I'm sure (sorry about that)

PDR

Last edited by PDR1; 7th Oct 2017 at 16:13. Reason: rubbish typing caused by a local zombie apocalypse
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Old 7th Oct 2017, 16:12
  #6115 (permalink)  
 
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Actually I've just learned that some of the above is wrong (every day is a school day!).

Where cars have a "cassette-type" gearbox the team CAN remove the gear cassette and replace the casing without incurring a penalty. It was even suggested they could replace parts like the dogs and sensors if they were broken provided they replaced like-for-like (I'm not sure I believe that, but I'll check).

Apparently Vettel's gearbox had a shattered casing after Sepang, but they were able to remove the cassette and reinstall it in a new casing without penalty. That this was allowed is news to me, so apols for thye mis-statements in the previous post!

PDR
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Old 7th Oct 2017, 17:48
  #6116 (permalink)  
 
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I am surprised that almost nothing has been discussed among the pundits about the unusual removal of the steering wheel by Seb Vettel following his collision with Stroll on the slow down lap of the Malaysian GP. The stewards apparently did not investigate this breach of the regs because it 'wasn't reported' to them. I'm not particularly bothered about any penalty (or lack of) but I am intrigued as to why Seb went back to the car, took off the steering wheel and went away with it. Could there be a legitimate reason? Anyone any idea? (PDR - Very informative posts, thanks)
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Old 7th Oct 2017, 18:01
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Originally Posted by Blues&twos View Post
I am surprised that almost nothing has been discussed among the pundits about the unusual removal of the steering wheel by Seb Vettel following his collision with Stroll on the slow down lap of the Malaysian GP. The stewards apparently did not investigate this breach of the regs because it 'wasn't reported' to them. I'm not particularly bothered about any penalty (or lack of) but I am intrigued as to why Seb went back to the car, took off the steering wheel and went away with it. Could there be a legitimate reason? Anyone any idea? (PDR - Very informative posts, thanks)
Whiting said that he was aware of the incident.
Maybe it was to avoid the theft of what is an expensive bespoke item that would be attractive to souvenir hunters?
He said that the reason for requiring replacing is to allow the marshals to manoeuvre a disable car - which wasn't necessary in Vettel's case.
Whiting also mentioned when drivers had thrown the steering wheel away.

He was also questioned (by Ted Kravitz) about Vettel riding on the side of another car - Whiting said that there was nothing in writing to prohibit it, though he had now told the drivers 'not to do it'.
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Old 7th Oct 2017, 18:45
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Palmer to leave Renault after Japanese GP.
http://www.crash.net/f1/news/884376/...se-gp#comments
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Old 7th Oct 2017, 18:55
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And Daniil Kvyat coming back to replace Carlos Sainz.
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Old 7th Oct 2017, 19:06
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G-CPTN - the 'souvenir hunters' thing doesn't make any sense, no other teams as far as I am aware have suffered theft of the steering wheel within the confines of the track. Also, the state of the car is irrelevant as the requirement to refit the steering wheel is in the F1 regulations, with no exceptions stated. This, from Autosport:

"Before climbing onto the side of the car, Vettel removed his steering wheel and took it with him.

That contravened article 22.5 of the sporting regulations, which says: "A driver who abandons a car must leave it in neutral or with the clutch disengaged, with the ERS shut down and with the steering wheel in place."

The stewards said that because it wasn't reported to them they didn't investigate, they didn't say they weren't aware of it. This suggests a driver will get away with anything if someone else doesn't tell them, even if they witness the transgression. This is clearly not the case though.
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