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Formula 1

Old 7th Oct 2013, 09:43
  #2121 (permalink)  
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I have always considered (maybe erroneously) that F1 developments should be viewed as future production car features (think of the disc brake).
Turbocharging (which is now commonplace in passenger cars - not to mention trucks) went through a phase in F1.
Maybe the new phase of turbocharging (and, who knows, the KERS) will find their ways into everyday vehicles - however, where does the current tyre development feature?
I can see the reasons behind 'tyre limitations' for competition use - but don't see it as being useful WRT production vehicle developments.
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Old 7th Oct 2013, 09:55
  #2122 (permalink)  
 
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You would think that given Pirelli's long standing marque customer for their road tyres, they might think twice about how they talk to Mr Alonso..??
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Old 7th Oct 2013, 10:49
  #2123 (permalink)  
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Pirelli apologise to Alonso?

From the Beeb website:-

Pirelli has apologised to Fernando Alonso following a public row over the quality of Formula 1's tyres.
Pirelli motorsport boss Paul Hembery had said Alonso's remarks about tyres were "disappointing", suggesting he seek advice from Sebastian Vettel.
"It's weird Pirelli spoke out given the season they're having but he apologised and it's all good," Alonso said.
A Pirelli spokesperson said: "Paul and Fernando had a private chat this morning about many different things."
Alonso had said after qualifying at the Korean Grand Prix on Saturday that "the quality of the tyres is very on the limit. If all the cars push 100% from the start of the lap the tyres will not do 5km."
He made it clear he was not blaming Pirelli for Ferrari's lack of competitiveness but said if the tyre was more durable, "at least you could drive".
Hembery responded by saying: "Of course Alonso is one of the great F1 drivers, so to hear such comments is disappointing and below the standards you would expect from such a champion.
I can only suggest he goes to ask the soon-to-be four-times champion how to get the best from the same tyres."

Alonso's criticisms that the tyres were too fragile were borne out by events in the race, when McLaren's Sergio Perez suffered a dramatic failure shortly after heavily locking up his brakes.
It is the latest in a series of failures in races by Pirelli tyres this season - the company was forced to make the design of its tyres more durable following seven failures in one race at the British Grand Prix.
Officials were forced to neutralise the race with a safety car while the debris from Perez's tyre was cleaned up, but not before Red Bull's Mark Webber suffered a puncture after running over it.

Webber said: "Pirelli will put the tyre puncture of Perez down to a lock-up but the reason the drivers are locking up is because there's no tread left.

Pirelli has been asked by F1 boss Bernie Ecclestone to produce tyres that deliberately wear out quickly to promote more pit stops and better racing.

Asked what he thought about the races being dominated by tyre management, Webber said:
"That's the way the new Formula 1 is.
The drivers aren't super important. It's what other people want, but that's the way it is. The tyres are wearing a lot and they also explode a bit as well but that's for Pirelli to sort out."

Alonso said after the race:
"We speak with facts and they [Pirelli] just use words. Everybody can see that.
These are tyres that won't last a lap, but as we said [on Saturday], we have zero problems with the performance. It's us who haven't adapted to these 2012 tyres. It's up to us Ferrari, or the drivers, to improve.
But the tyre marbles [bits of discarded rubber off line] are there, and when it rains they have to stop the races, and then Perez has a blow-out... So we know the tyres are on the limit in terms of quality. Hembery had not heard this and he made a mistake, and he came to apologise, so we are thankful for that."
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Old 7th Oct 2013, 11:20
  #2124 (permalink)  

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Paul and Fernando had a private chat this morning
Maybe Hembery threatened to leave a prancing horse's head in Alonso's bed.

Other teams are coping with the tyre problems. I don't remember Ferrari showing any sympathy for other teams at Indianapois in 2005, so what goes around has come around.

Last week there was talk of Red Bull running illegal traction control. Could something similar have been removed from Alonso's car seeing as he didn't manage his usual dash to the front at the start?
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Old 7th Oct 2013, 11:24
  #2125 (permalink)  

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then Perez has a blow-out...
Not surprising the way he hammered into the corner with everything locked up, so many flat spots it would have felt like driving on threepenny bits. He apparently wore a hole right through the tyre
So we know the tyres are on the limit in terms of quality. Hembery had not heard this
Duh!!! I think Embery is fully aware of the problems. If he isn't then he shouldn't be in that job.

Last edited by Lon More; 7th Oct 2013 at 11:26.
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Old 7th Oct 2013, 12:17
  #2126 (permalink)  
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Racing tyres (at least current ones - unlike the Dunlop Racing tyres of the 1960s) are completely unlike anything that a roadcar would run.
For a start they have no tread-grooves (apart from the intermediate and wets) and the tread compound is sticky and becomes fluid at operating temperature so it becomes sacrificial. Secondly there is little need for robustness to withstand kerbing (at least not to the extent of road-vehicles).
Durability is where the current discussion gets interesting.

It is perfectly possible for tyres to last the extent of a Grand Prix - though ultimate grip and tyre weight would suffer.

As Pirelli have pointed out, they were commissioned to produce tyres that will not last the whole race - thus enforcing pit stops.

The Korean Grand Prix could well have seen three stops for fresh tyres, but decisions were taken to limit these to two (at least one is necessary as two distinct compounds must be used). If Mercedes had called-in Hamilton earlier then he could well have finished higher - maybe second or third. At one stage he was losing 2 or 3 seconds per lap to his rivals.
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Old 7th Oct 2013, 14:01
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Speculation on Autosport .com that Ross Brawn is going to join Mc Laren.
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Old 7th Oct 2013, 14:19
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Hamilton whining on the BBC that Vettel keeping winning is making F1 boring!
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Old 7th Oct 2013, 14:27
  #2129 (permalink)  
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Pirelli's Hembery.
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Old 7th Oct 2013, 14:41
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Hamilton whining on the BBC that Vettel keeping winning is making F1 boring!
He's bloody right too.. The question is what are he and his team going to do about??
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Old 7th Oct 2013, 14:41
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Seem to recall a recent radio comment from Jody Schekter that he didn't have a Pirelli tyre on any of his existing vehicles, by choice.
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Old 7th Oct 2013, 14:57
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I think the biggest problem with the current tires is the amount of debris they create - 'marbles', 'clag', 'crud' - what ever term you want to use, they ruin racing. It turns the track into a single usable line - making it even harder to overtake since if you get into the marbles going around someone, you loose grip.

During the previous turbo era when they had max fuel limits, there was the spectacle of drivers turning up the boost to run at the front, only to run out of gas with a couple laps left. It became tortoise and the hare - more of a fairytale than auto racing. I sure hope it doesn't come to that next year.
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Old 7th Oct 2013, 15:07
  #2133 (permalink)  
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I would vote for less communication between the pits and the vehicle - especially datawise.
Having a veritable team of people manipulating multiple channels of data in real time to monitor every possible squeak and wobble deviates from the spirit of Grand Prix racing IMO.

By all means collect this information, but limit analysis to after the event.
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Old 7th Oct 2013, 17:04
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F1 needs to take lessons from MotoGP. No tyre changes, no refueling, no radios and you can kill yourself. Very exciting racing, lots of overtaking and whilst Marquez keeps winning he really has to work for it.
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Old 7th Oct 2013, 20:50
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I'd love to see the complete removal of all aero downforce !

Radical I know but think of the benefits :- cost (all teams spend most of their budget on their aero package), cornering speeds would be reduced, braking distances increased, real slipstreaming all allowing more racing/late braking/overtaking. Without recourse to very complicated drag reducing slots opening under certain circumstances!
As an added bonus the cars would once again be just very streamlined and attractive to the eye, without being festooned with little aero"fixes" sticking out everywhere and ugly multiple element wings churning up the air for the chasing cars!
The only downside I can think of is that there would be less area on the car for sponsor's logos.....er hang on a minute!!

Cheers all Silvertop
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Old 7th Oct 2013, 21:04
  #2136 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by vulcanised View Post
Hamilton whining on the BBC that Vettel keeping winning is making F1 boring!
BBC Sport - Lewis Hamilton: Sebastian Vettel dominance could bore fans

"Britain's former world champion Lewis Hamilton says he fears Formula 1 fans will lose interest in the sport because Sebastian Vettel is so dominant. He has driven well all year, said the 28-year-old.
I've just looked at his points and he has had second, first, second, first all year.

He's done the perfect job and he deserves it.

Ah well nothing like facts to douse the squealing masses.....
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Old 7th Oct 2013, 21:15
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" I'd love to see the complete removal of all aero downforce !

Radical I know but think of the benefits :- cost (all teams spend most of their budget on their aero package), cornering speeds would be reduced, braking distances increased, real slipstreaming all allowing more racing/late braking/overtaking. Without recourse to very complicated drag reducing slots opening under certain circumstances!

As an added bonus the cars would once again be just very streamlined and attractive to the eye, without being festooned with little aero"fixes" sticking out everywhere and ugly multiple element wings churning up the air for the chasing cars!
The only downside I can think of is that there would be less area on the car for
sponsor's logos.....er hang on a minute!!

Er, this car had had a sweet aero package.............none nicer on the eye.

lotus 79 - Google Search
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Old 7th Oct 2013, 23:27
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I'd love to see the complete removal of all aero downforce !
BINGO! I've been advocating that for years (mandating ferrous brakes would be a nice touch as well). It would probably require some sort of silhouette formula to prevent the wings and other aero gadgets from sneaking back in (you know how engineers can be "honest, that wing shaped thing is just to direct air into the cooling duct" ).

I think Andretti's Lotus 79 was among the best looking of all the winged F1 cars . But I still think the best looking ones were the mid 1960s, before they started sprouting wings.
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Old 8th Oct 2013, 00:54
  #2139 (permalink)  
 
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I also agree with getting rid of the aero downforce and would also like to see the tyres last a complete race. Give the drivers a choice
of say 3 compounds so he can find the one that suits him best.As for pit stops to change tyres making it more exciting ? I find that to
be a load of rubbish and rather stupid as all the teams change all 4 wheels in less than 3 seconds anyway. Alas I don't think any decent
changes will happen until a certain very elderly gentleman gives up the reigns, old people don't always know best.

An added thought but I wonder if Pirelli are in any way concerned that ordinary drivers might be put off as they could well
perceive that Pirelli road tyres won't last as long as other makes ?

Last edited by Nervous SLF; 8th Oct 2013 at 01:00. Reason: Added thought
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Old 8th Oct 2013, 02:16
  #2140 (permalink)  

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Do 'ordinary' drivers use Pirelli? Don't think I've ever seen one on the road tbh...but, then again, I'm not looking for them.
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