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EU Politics - Hamsterwheel

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EU Politics - Hamsterwheel

Old 26th Jun 2012, 10:58
  #1641 (permalink)  
 
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A lot of the articles linked or reproduced on here are dismissed on the grounds that they are from "Eurosceptic" newspapers (and therefore presumably invalid....)

Well this one is from that bastion of Euroscepticism, The Guardian, and is titled
The German chancellor's critics should stop accusing her of Teutonic arrogance. Why should she take on everyone's debts?
Mrs Merkel's Germany is Europe's one musketeer | Josef Joffe | Comment is free | The Guardian

Very sensible stuff IMO.
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Old 26th Jun 2012, 16:04
  #1642 (permalink)  
 
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i personally have no problem with Germany not taking on everyone else's debt. Of course for the socialists and the socialist cause this is a problem.. if the bill payer is not picking up the bill then the grand socialist plan is toast.

After all, if Germany bankrupts itself picking up the debts of Europe, then everything grinds to a halt and europe collapses into a mess anyway, but then the socialists have never got their head round the concept that they will eventually run out ofther people's money.
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Old 26th Jun 2012, 16:23
  #1643 (permalink)  
 
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A lot of the articles linked or reproduced on here are dismissed on the grounds that they are from "Eurosceptic" newspapers (and therefore presumably invalid....)
Well, true, but then the tide has turned and pretty much all of the mainstream media are now 'Eurosceptic' if that is the right term to use for describing the situation as it is, rather than as it should be.

An article here by George Soros, who is no fool!

Germany risks being centre of empire that caused eurozone collapse, warns George Soros - Telegraph

I emailed my europhile friend this morning and said : "I take it your silence and absence are an admission that the Euro is now doomed or will bring doom if it continues on this path....."

His reply : "Last time I looked the euro was fine .........."

He could be right :

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Old 26th Jun 2012, 17:57
  #1644 (permalink)  
 
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I read a rather appropriate comment recently, maybe on here, maybe elsewhere?

"It's like backing up the Titanic to have another run at the iceberg"
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Old 26th Jun 2012, 19:03
  #1645 (permalink)  
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I see all the struggling countries and their rising hopelessness and unemployment, whilst the bureaucrats in Brussels use all their efforts to save the Euro.

The best description in the press yesterday was that it was the folly of seeing a drowning man beside a sinking liner and throwing the lifejacket to the liner...

Last edited by ORAC; 26th Jun 2012 at 19:05.
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Old 26th Jun 2012, 19:15
  #1646 (permalink)  
 
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so, the liner has backed up, taken another run at the iceberg, it's sinking a drowning man has thrown a life jacket at the liner...

so what to the officers do ? play the blame game...

EU banking union plans 'a threat to London' - Telegraph

New proposals for a “banking union” pose a threat to London as Europe's main financial centre as the EU moves against the European Banking Authority, blaming it for a failure to address the Spanish bank crisis.
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Old 26th Jun 2012, 19:26
  #1647 (permalink)  
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I thought the Germans kicked the idea of a banking union into the long grass a week or two ago?
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Old 26th Jun 2012, 22:06
  #1648 (permalink)  
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How many times does germany have to say the game's over? is this what they call diplomatic language......

Angela Merkel rules out eurobonds for 'as long as I live'

Angela Merkel has firmly rejected the use of eurobonds ahead of a crucial summit in Brussels this week, ruling out jointly guaranteed eurozone debt for "as long as I live".
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Old 27th Jun 2012, 06:44
  #1649 (permalink)  
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Where is KAG. We need him to remind us all is well.
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Old 27th Jun 2012, 08:09
  #1650 (permalink)  
 
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Merkel's comment was very clear, however it was made to an internal meeting of the FDP Bundestag members: to be understood by the obsessed in Brussels, needs to be part of the minutes of the next summit ( Friday ? ).
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Old 27th Jun 2012, 08:34
  #1651 (permalink)  
 
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Debt crisis: the benefits of selective eurozone default - Telegraph
There is a consensus in the corridors of power that if any eurozone member defaults or leaves, contagion and collapse are assured. This is a fairy tale designed to frighten voters into submission to bizarre government policies. It also ignores two historical lessons.

One is that sovereign default is normal, especially after major banking crises. Only 13 of the G20 countries (the world's wealthiest nations) existed a century ago.

Of these, only two have not defaulted. Many have repeatedly reneged. The other is that default can be beneficial. Markets already expect several EU countries to 'restructure', hence Greek and Portuguese 10-year government bonds are now worth 16pc and 65pc of their face value; but discussion remains a political heresy because the eurozone has some aspects of a religious cult. The result is an absence of analysis on how to manage the cyclical inevitability of default, or to reap the benefits.

It is also worth noting that for many countries default is their normal condition. Spain is the winner, officially defaulting 18 times since 1550. Greece has done so five times since its re-creation in the 1820s, and has been barred international borrowing for 110 years out of the last 190.

The architects of the euro created an interdependent economic area so that never again could there be a war across Europe. They knew a single currency before political union carried risks so built in financial controls. The breakdown occurred when France and Germany waived the budget deficit rules in 2003 fearing the electoral consequences. From then on, a crisis was inevitable.

Elections across Europe now show an anti-EU trend because of its new association with financial pain: previously voters signed up for the money - low interest rates, unimaginably easy credit, rising income and house prices. The Poles and Czechs never conceived they would be asked to pay in; the Mediterranean periphery never expected to repay overseas donations. The risk/reward for these nations has tilted towards leaving, the more so given the potential benefits.

The economies of all five 'PIIGS' [Portugal, Italy, Ireland, Greece and Spain] are contracting. The longer they remain within the eurozone, the more local deposits, foreign investors and industry will flee. Soaring unemployment, mass emigration, deflation and social unrest are guaranteed. Recovery post-default is always driven by a reversal of previous capital flows: deposits return into the system; foreign businesses see the opportunity of cheap wages and a weak currency; governments are keen to smooth their path so regulations are waived. Investors suddenly become interested in building factories and buying assets. Tourists find the exchange rate compelling and arrive in droves. Service companies (which can be based anywhere) find the case for relocation compelling.

Currently the PIIGS are aid junkies. The cure for addiction is not to increase the dose as it prevents necessary structural changes. Default will be painful yet this should be brief as it allows reform to take place. The precedents are good, one suffices. 2012 marks the 15th anniversary of Asia's bone-jarring economic collapse; most countries bordering the Pacific underwent some form of default, even China at the provincial level. The problems were artificially high exchange rates and excessive debt. In 1997, it was inconceivable that within 15 years Asia would account for four-fifths of the world's foreign exchange reserves, or 60pc of commodity imports. Rightly so as it only took ten - because there was simultaneous reform. In contrast, Argentina has defaulted three times since 1982 but has never restructured because of its strange Peronist legacy. The world's sixth richest country on a per capita basis in 1914, today its fails to make the top 50.

There are major opportunities in crises and defaults, such as the collapse of the Berlin Wall in 1989 which effectively doubled the number of global consumers overnight and resulted in a fifteen-year equity bull market and high growth in real income. Asia's financial crash in 1997 proved another. Today Greece's entire stock market is capitalised at $20bn, less than 5pc the value and 0.5pc of a single day's turnover in Apple. Italian opportunities are potentially greater. It is premature to place bets on the PIIGS today because of the EU's amazing record of dither and delay. Yet decision making has already passed to voters; the priority for national politicians is re-election so rapid changes are imminent. The result should be long overdue reform and economic renaissance, provided the dead hands of government incompetence are temporarily severed.

Jonathan Compton, Managing Director, Bedlam Asset Management.
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Old 28th Jun 2012, 08:08
  #1652 (permalink)  
 
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Defining eurozone deal ruled out as Angela Merkel and Francois Hollande clash - Europe - World - The Independent

A Franco-German clash over eurozone recovery tactics has ruled
out a defining deal to solve the growing economic crisis at the latest
EU summit in Brussels.

Eve-of-summit talks in Paris between the eurozone "big two" failed to bridge the gulf between German chancellor Angela Merkel and French president Francois Hollande over the balance between austerity and growth.
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Old 28th Jun 2012, 08:25
  #1653 (permalink)  
 
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Trouble at 't mill. Are we surprised ...........

No, everything is working just as it was meant to. It's all fine, the sun's shining ....... brilliant!


Debt crisis: Angela Merkel dismisses Spain and Italy's pleas for aid

Pleas from Spain and Italy for urgent financial aid from the eurozone to bring down borrowing costs were dismissed by Angela Merkel as divisions hardened on the eve of a critical summit.


Germany's Chancellor angrily rejected desperate pleading by Italy and Spain as a Franco-German rift over eurozone debt sharing threatened to unravel efforts to find a fix for the single currency at a meeting of European leaders on Thursday.
Angela Merkel isn't bluffing; like everyone else in Europe, she's defending national sovereignty You turn if you want to. The lady's not for turning. No, not Mrs Thatcher, but Angela Merkel, the latest big beast of the European political scene to dig her heels in and refuse to go along with the international consensus.
I think these birds have more sense than those who are still trying to defend this failed experiment. Oh, I forgot ........ where are those trying to defend it? They seem to have disappeared. Wonder why?



Last edited by Tableview; 28th Jun 2012 at 08:27.
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Old 28th Jun 2012, 10:12
  #1654 (permalink)  
 
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Question: Got a wad of Euros collected while staggering through the duty free areas of various European airports. Pay in another currency and change is always given in Euros. Is it worth spending or cashing them in for hard currency or should I hold on to them for the novelty value they'll have in a few years?
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Old 28th Jun 2012, 11:45
  #1655 (permalink)  
 
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Question: Got a wad of Euros collected while staggering through the duty free areas of various European airports. Pay in another currency and change is always given in Euros. Is it worth spending or cashing them in for hard currency or should I hold on to them for the novelty value they'll have in a few years?
well you need to find someone that places a greater value on them than their face value, today or next year and sell them to that party.


Now, where's KAG.......
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Old 28th Jun 2012, 13:41
  #1656 (permalink)  
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I bought an electric switch at my local DIY today - this shop has *everything*, always busy and you see people queuing outside before they open: they have a good turn-over of stock. Looked to see how much the switch cost.....here's the label:




I said to the cashier (a humpy-faced lady)- is this from "before the euro" or ready for "after" ? first time I've ever seen her smile.
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Old 28th Jun 2012, 14:20
  #1657 (permalink)  
 
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Not surprising that she should smile when about to sell a switch for 3,021,667 pesetas.

Hate to think what a plug would cost.
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Old 28th Jun 2012, 15:41
  #1658 (permalink)  
 
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We can all relax, the problems are solved :

Alles ist hunky dory in Euroland
Tout van bien en Euroland
Alles is goed en Euroland
Todo va estupendamente bien en el mundo del euro
Tutti bene en territorio dello euro


European Union leaders are beginning a closely watched Brussels summit on the fate of the euro.
On the summit's eve, German Chancellor Angela Merkel held two hours of talks with the French President Francois Hollande in Paris.
The two remain at odds on how to move forward, with Germany opposed to pooling debt while France insists the eurozone needs further integration.


European authorities have unveiled proposals such as the creation of a European treasury, which would have powers over national budgets.
The 10-year plan is designed to strengthen the eurozone and prevent future crises, but critics say it will not address current debt problems.
Spanish 10-year government bonds were trading at yields above 6.9% on Thursday morning, coming close to the 7% considered unaffordable.
Spanish and Italian leaders are worried that their countries could soon - in effect - be shut out of international markets and forced to seek assistance.
European press views

  • Liberation, France: "The story runs as if some leaders - including in the front row Angela Merkel - are now counting on the break-up of the area and the establishment of a core group of countries sharing both their currency and sovereignty"
  • Spiegel, Germany: "It is already clear that the high expectations on the financial markets and in capitals outside the EU will not be met. Instead of a clear commitment to a robust monetary union, with all that entails, the European leaders will probably only agree on a vague roadmap - in other words, the usual muddling through"
  • El Pais, Spain: "The German chancellor has rejected any compromise to change the order of the factors in the salvatory equation: you must first create control and accountability systems and only then will debt be shared. Apparently she does not feel under pressure from fear of the euro dying"

Last edited by Tableview; 28th Jun 2012 at 15:58.
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Old 28th Jun 2012, 17:15
  #1659 (permalink)  
 
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The two remain at odds on how to move forward, with Germany opposed to pooling debt while France insists the eurozone needs further integration.
is Germany becoming the new paraiah of the Euro-fantasists, will they replace or join the UK as pariah will be interesting.

i kind of chuckle at the claims of more integration, what they mean is pooling the debt, as the indebted countries threaten to drag the euro through the gutter, so 'more integration' basically means dividing the debt up between the EU nations. For sure I can see why germany are saying 'screw that!', i'm sure the harsh reality of that will lead to many other member states saying 'screw that!' too.

basically palming someone else's debt onto someone else is the only method they can come up with to try to stave off the inevitable for the euro.

the question is, how many states will the europhiles see dragged down the plug hole to satisfy their failed vision of nirvana ?
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Old 29th Jun 2012, 04:32
  #1660 (permalink)  
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Wheels starting to come off the wagon?

Debt crisis: Italy and Spain threaten to block 'everything' at tense EU summit

A crisis summit to save the European Union’s single currency broke up in disarray early this morning after Italy and Spain threatened to block “everything” unless they got immediate eurozone aid to bring down their borrowing costs.
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