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USA Politics - Hamster Wheel

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USA Politics - Hamster Wheel

Old 12th Jan 2011, 20:38
  #161 (permalink)  
bearfoil
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Which is why I was perplexed v/v Waco. The nexus for Fibby horning in on Texas was a very flimsy Gun charge(ATF). Here, in Tucson, Fed jurisdiction is clear.
 
Old 12th Jan 2011, 20:46
  #162 (permalink)  
 
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Con Pilot you are correct. I was thinking only of the link between civil rights and murder of the public and had not considered Federal property etc.
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Old 12th Jan 2011, 21:08
  #163 (permalink)  


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Much less polarization in the U.S. than what we see in Europe today. Just look at Wilder's recent election in Netherlands which, curiously, somehow fails to get discussed on these boards. Imagine if such a politician were elected in the U.S.; why we'd be dripping in Euro sanctimony. But because he's a European? A pass, apparently. And look at the rise of the BNP, the violent and destructive Greek riots, the coming clash of non-integrated Islamic extremists all across Europe; and on and on. And you say the U.S. is polarized?
I am not talking about vile racist thugs such as the BNP, and believe me I am the wrong person talk to about that muppet Wilders. Racism and polaristion of viewpoints are two very very different things.

If we were talking about European politics then this thread would not be titled USA Political Hamster Wheel. I have noticed that whenever there is implied criticism (either real or imaginary) then the knee jerk reaction of a certain type of US poster is to sound like children and say "...but in Europe...".

Post WW II Europe in general was fashioned in the mould of American democracy, which in turn was based on a fusion of English, Scottish and French legal systems. Both NATO and the EU were ostensibly creations that were initially formed with the backing and support of the US.

The interest in what happens in the US is of great interest in Europe, because often what happens there will have a knock on effect into our political and economic systems. The "cultural imperialism" of the US through mass media has been an insidious and subtle colonisation. That combined with the financial and military might that the US wields does make for a powerful political cocktail. This is not a criticism, as it has probably done more good than harm, but it must viewed as having an effect on how people perceive the US. It is, however, a double edged sword.

As opposed to British politics that simply revolves around cowardice, self service and raucous "public schoolboy" booing and hissing in a body that is supposed to display leadership...
Airborne Aircrew, you won't get any argument from me about that. The frankly embarrassing spectacle of idiotic buffoonery laughter and waving of papers in parliament is from another age. Horseshoe shaped lower chambers are far more conducive to a more "professional" form of debate and governance. It may be tradition to have Westminster laid out as it is, but we are allegedly a first world country in the 21st century, and I believe that running the country should be shaken up and changed - significantly.

America actually speaks more original English than the English, who have succumbed heavily to European influence.
English is a European language. It is based on a Germanic language, hence Anglo Saxon. It is heavily influenced by French, since at least the Norman invasion and influenced by the Danes when Vikings invaded.
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Old 12th Jan 2011, 21:09
  #164 (permalink)  

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Con Pilot you are correct. I was thinking only of the link between civil rights and murder of the public and had not considered Federal property etc.
No problem, it does get a bit confusing, even to me and I worked for the US Department of Justice for ten years.
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Old 12th Jan 2011, 21:13
  #165 (permalink)  

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Which is why I was perplexed v/v Waco. The nexus for Fibby horning in on Texas was a very flimsy Gun charge(ATF). Here, in Tucson, Fed jurisdiction is clear.
The only good thing that happened to us re Waco, was that when I landed with a Marshal Service SOG team at Waco, the FBI told us to go away because of the screw up at Ruby Ridge. So we did and watched on TV with the rest of the world when it all went south.

Bad times my friend, bad times.
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Old 12th Jan 2011, 22:36
  #166 (permalink)  
 
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FlyPuppy:

English is a European language. It is based on a Germanic language, hence Anglo Saxon. It is heavily influenced by French, since at least the Norman invasion and influenced by the Danes when Vikings invaded.
You forgot Latin...
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Old 12th Jan 2011, 23:15
  #167 (permalink)  
 
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Flypuppy:

If we were talking about European politics then this thread would not be titled USA Political Hamster Wheel. I have noticed that whenever there is implied criticism (either real or imaginary) then the knee jerk reaction of a certain type of US poster is to sound like children and say "...but in Europe...".
This is the "U.S. Hamsterwheel" thread. So when a European offers sage comments like "the Americans need to be more civilized" and "American politics are too polarised," the question begs to be asked "compared to whom?" The British? The French? Are you kidding?

Then when specific examples of European noxious behaviour and polarisation are given, making it clear that the original poster has no basis for such a comment, suddenly the U.S. defender is "childish?" Ok, maybe so, but where does that leave the European first tosser? (rock tosser, that is). Well, I suppose the European comment was enlightened and erudite, and the American response was childish. Ok, now I get how the game is played.

You will notice that very rarely does a U.S. poster appear on the European hamsterwheel. However, something draws European posters to the U.S. Hamsterwheel. Fine, I think I know what it is, but heavens I dare not say so here. But don't be surprised when a U.S. poster, on the U.S. Hamsterwheel, inconventiently points out that the supposed cultural and other shortcomings of the U.S. can be found quite easily in the more sophisticated lands of Asterix and Obelix.

Speaking of cultural imperialism, do you really want to drag out Jack Lang's old bugga-boo? Come on, look around you. Nobody is forcing you to buy the latest Ipod, wear blue jeans, or post on a Darpa-designed computer-connectivity system (uh oh, cue the Berners-Lee lesson, here it comes).

Oh, and about that racism doesn't equal polarisation thing. Fine, although I don't agree. But is having a Scottish-only parliament and no distinct English parliament polarised or not? Never figured that one out. Or a Catalan successionist movement? I guess when Andalucia finally succeeds then you'll need a visa to get to your package holiday in Torremolinos. Unfortunate, that polarisation thing.

No, the fact is all modern democracies are rife with polarisation and a bit of uncivility. It may not always be pretty, but it is better than anything out there. And for that, you can thank your and my grandparents. Back then, we understood we were all in the same game.
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Old 13th Jan 2011, 01:54
  #168 (permalink)  
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Flypuppy,

From an outsider's point of view, it seems that American politics has drifted into the depths of black and white arguments from extremes. The over simplification of issues, and reducing of complex problems to 10 second sound-bites.
It would seem politics everywhere have drifted into the oversimplification of issues, an abundance of false-dichotomies and with it, extreme divisiveness.

Everything unfortunately has become polarized and most disturbingly, it doesn't appear to be unintentional; it's systematic and deliberate: The whole principle is based on keeping everybody divided, turning everybody against everybody else so that they don't unite and focus against what those in power are doing and push for meaningful changes.

We had it under Thatcher, where peoples greed was the human trait that was used to attract voters that would not normally be natural Tories, with the sale of council houses and the privatisation of utilities seeing people turning short term gains. The longer term ramifications are only now being seen.
Appealing to greed is appealing to the lowest common denominator, and for this reason it's very effective. This is why it's important to be educated and possess critical thinking skills. It's basically to help people see through stuff like this and avoid being bamboozled by unscrupulous people in government, big-business, and in everyday life.

Could it be that the aggressive and divisive nature of current US politics is playing with fire?
The aggressive and divisive nature of current politics (period) is playing with fire, especially when you consider that we always end up getting burned by it.

Last edited by Jane-DoH; 14th Jan 2011 at 01:32.
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Old 13th Jan 2011, 02:03
  #169 (permalink)  
 
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FlyPuppy:

where peoples greed was the human trait that was used to attract voters
That would be the hallmark of the left... Take those with no brains and few marketable skills and give them stuff paid for by those with brains and/or marketable skills. All the while making more and more of the population stupid by not educating them properly thus placing them in the "few marketable skills/no brains" group. Once the ratio of brains/skills is less than 50% of the population you have your guaranteed power base.

If that's difficult to grasp you know the group you are in...
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Old 13th Jan 2011, 05:43
  #170 (permalink)  
 
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Galaxy Flyer

Galaxy Flyer writes:
Rottenray
If he survived contact FIVE times with the police at his community college on issues of his behavior, why would he failed "contact" with a firearms instructor? He has been reported as a good shot, presumably could handle and use a pistol. Even the delusional have talents, witness the entire Hollywood crowd.

This is just another example of mass murderers who were amply identified before hand by police, teachers, acquaintances, even parents and NO ONE was willing to document, back up testimony, take any action to deny that person access to weapons, to involuntarily confine, rehabilitate, treat them. That is due to fear of civil suits, fear of expensive legal counsel, fear of an costly settlement, fear that the police are powerless to defend the citizen who trie to "corral" these individuals. THAT is the sad lesson here.
GF
Great!

Now that your "double-tap" duplicate posting has been cleared up, I can respond and it won't look bad.

Actually, it seems Loughner "survived contact" - quotes mine - 9 times.

Police do a stellar job by and large, in the time they have with a suspect. In this case, none of Loughner's contact with law enforcement saw him spending significant time in the presence of a single officer.

One needs to remember that when someone like this has contact with the police, it is usually for a very specific cause - typically, investigating something which turns out to be an affront of some sort and ends up being a "he said / she said" pissing contest.

But do I think Loughner could have skated through a safety course taught by a firearm aficionado or off-duty LEO?

No.

Especially if said course included any range time.

When you are around people you don't know personally and they are handling weapons, you tend to pay A LOT of attention to how they act.

So, to answer your question as to whether or not I think spending time with a firearm safety instructor would have stood a better chance of weaseling this guy out...

Yes.

Which is exactly how it should be.

In days of yore, many of the safety courses required for Arizona's concealed carry permits were taught by off-duty cops, long-time collectors, and competition shooters.

Somehow, I can't see it to be a bad thing having this sort of person teach new gun owners how to be safe - and I think if you rely on this type of instructor, you'll find that they will weed out students they feel to be unsafe.


And that's all we really need.



Cheers!
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Old 13th Jan 2011, 05:54
  #171 (permalink)  
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Airborne Aircrew,

That would be the hallmark of the left...
This is the kind of divisiveness that FlyPuppy talked about and I followed up on too. It's not just the left or just the right.
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Old 13th Jan 2011, 14:38
  #172 (permalink)  
 
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Tried to keep it simple, so even republicans can understand.
Since we are now trying to "keep" things "simple"....let's try this one on for size.

For all the guns I do own, and have owned, or other guns I have carried at the demand of my employers.....Ted Kennedy's Car has killed more people than all the guns I have or have had or carried.

The call today is for more gun laws, stricter enforcement of the "new" laws.

Any rational study of the existing gun laws will show they started out as a means of collecting taxes and keeping Federal Tax Agents employed following the end of Prohibition. NFA and later additions to the Federal Gun Laws are not based on anything approaching logical, reasonable, or useful grounds.

For sure.....that situation is not going to change in the future.

If you wish to engage in a debate on Gun Laws....at least do some research and learn about the issue. After you know the history and implementation of the 1934 NFA, the 1964 laws, and the Assault Weapon Ban, come back and tell us all about gun laws in the USA.

All the focus by the Gun Banners is on the negative side of gun ownership....and never on the good side. Guns do save lives, protect victims from burglars, robbers, and rapists. Let's introduce those statistics and stories where the lawful ownership of a firearm actually made a difference into the dialogue to at least add a bit of balance to the discussion.

I used to say I saw no reason whatsoever an ordinary Citizen should have a machinegun or cannon. When you consider there has never been a single case of a legally licensed weapon of that kind used in a crime of any sort....it makes you question the outright banning of the things. Control of licensing, standards for storage, transfers to others...sure no problem....as long as they are reasonable.

Any time of the day one can tune to a cable/sat TV channel and watch videos of Gang Members openly displaying illegal weapons. Why does the ATF focus less on that kind of crime than they do on "paperwork" issues and otherwise law abiding individuals? Why is it not an automatic referral to the ATF for Federal Prosecution for any arrest of an offender who possesses or uses an illegally possessed firearm, or using a firearm in the commission of a crime?

You want to make a difference in gun crime....add Federal Charges for firearm violations to every State crime such as armed robbery, assault, murder and the like.....and put offenders in prison for those crimes as well as the State crimes and make the sentences consecutive rather than concurrent.

The laws exist....the ATF exists....the Federal Court exists....the Federal Prisons exists.....only thing missing is the willingness by the Politicians to make it happen.

On the Telly as I type this.....A Democrat in Congress is introducing a Bill to authorize Members of Congress to tote heat. Funny....one of them gets shot and all of a sudden the carrying of firearms is cool beans. What is different between a member of Congress and a private citizen in this regard?

Do consider handgun ownership in New York is a very huge NO NO!

A sense of Privilege perhaps?
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Old 13th Jan 2011, 14:42
  #173 (permalink)  
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On an individual basis, it frequently is the case for maladjusted folk to blame others, (sometimes viciously, or even violently) for the defects they themselves employ quite blatantly. This is a rule of thumbs.

To notice is to "Own". I grew up gratefully in a poor and blue collar neighborhood. Home was well integrated, little racial rancor. Come to find out that We'd been wrong all along, it isn't a good idea (sic) to fold each other into community. We learned from the LimoLibs that race was to be not only identified, but celebrated!! Celebration is fine, but we noticed some things were off. Only poor people of color were to "celebrate". Others were shamed as racist if they took to noticing their own fair skin. Much Condescension there, we thunk. Then comes "Affirmative Action", with its tagAlong tacit undertones of "White Man's Burden".

I've been a member of the progressive Left. In my experience, The Left can get quite ummm "racial", though it is forgiven readily, in the name of Welfare, and Media fences. The tinted ceiling belongs to Lib and Rit equally. However, color seems a bigger deal to the saviours of my neighborhood.

The "Left" is not self aware. Frequently caught out in possession of both sides of an argument, both wrong, they ignore the one they own whilst trying to pin it on the "Enemy du Jour".

just sayin'

I still believe that we would be far, far further down the brotherhood path if we'd have been spared the "Help" of the Left.

"Check that box, please, and your check is in the mail".

bear

edit SASless. Our own Senator Maam Dianne Feinstein has a CCW, and she carries often, even when protected by two armed skinheads. .380 I believe, and she is expert.
 
Old 13th Jan 2011, 16:06
  #174 (permalink)  

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I watched the memorial service in Tucson. In all honesty I was impressed by President Obama and one could say I was actually impressed with his speech and proud of him for calling for the political infighting and blame pointing to end.

What I was not impressed with nor proud of was the actions by the, mostly liberal, students cheering, yelling and acting like this was some kind of campaign stop speech. I believe even President Obama was taken aback by the action of the students (mostly).

Overall the President an A+, the students and others that cheered and yelled a F-.

For those here that may be surprised by my remarks, all I can say is, that I calls em' likes I sees em'.

When President Clinton came to Oklahoma City for the memorial service there was no cheering and yelling, just the sounds of people crying softly. I should know, I was there and was crying*. President Clinton did an excellent job as well.


* I was holding it together until they showed the pictures of the little children that were killed, then I lost it.
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Old 13th Jan 2011, 16:21
  #175 (permalink)  
 
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I was likewise impressed, Con.

It was a good speech. I felt Obama really meant what he said. If not, he deserves an Oscar for his performance. He had a difficult line to walk between an attempt to make political capital out of this terrible incident and a genuine appeal for some moderation. I think he got it about right.

A pity this thread has degenerated into the standard gun law [email protected]
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Old 13th Jan 2011, 16:26
  #176 (permalink)  

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A pity this thread has degenerated into the standard gun law [email protected]
Sadly usually it does and most generally it always will.
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Old 13th Jan 2011, 17:30
  #177 (permalink)  
 
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I watched the Arizona memorial and I too was pleased with the President's
words. I am sincere in my hope that his words about infighting will be heeded.

This morning as I surf the news channels I see the status quo.
Some just cannot seem to let their hate go and regardless of Obama's speech continue to see the facts of the Tucson shooting as an inconvienient truth and continue the attacks.

As a one time college student in a much more troubling US era of war, drugs and free love, I had a respect for funerals, memorial services and knew appropriate behavior at same.
Now in all honesty, I did do two extremely stupid things. I voted for Tricky Dicky and later That Peanut Farmer from Georgia, I know please I was young and it was done in silence in the privacy of a voting booth. No outburst to draw attention, no celebration.

The complete and utter mass intra-cranial flatulation witnessed on TV of the Univ. of Az. students and their outbursts was out of place, a disgrace and was shameful.
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Old 13th Jan 2011, 18:12
  #178 (permalink)  
 
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I noticed a slight difference between the PBS news YouTube post and what was displayed on several networks.

Namely, that the soundtrack seemed a bit "enhanced" during the few moments of applause and cheering.

As far as calling the crowd out for expressing themselves...

Well, I'm glad they felt a moment of uplift. This was a public memorial, not a funeral. Grousing about someone finding a bit of joy in the remembrance of those murdered and expressing it is crass and just plain cranky.


RR
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Old 13th Jan 2011, 18:16
  #179 (permalink)  
 
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Indeed.

And I thought the T-Shirts were a nice touch.

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Old 13th Jan 2011, 18:27
  #180 (permalink)  
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I could not agree more, and once again there is a partisan drift to the passion.

First of all, there is only one Arizona Memorial.

Secondly, who remembers the Paul Wellstone "Memorial/Football Rally"?? A sedate memorial was co-opted by the Democrats and turned into a Rally for Democrat "Unity".

Not once did I hear Obama shush the excited dimwits. Whistles, cheers and "Shout Outs" are disgraceful, and Obama's tolerance of that bullshit was trashy, to put it mildly. I also don't think being caught in the swirl of violent dumb luck is a foundation for canonization, nine years of age included. I am grown sick of absolutely every experience being SPUN.

Re: Wellstone: Identifiable Republicans left early, out of deference for the deceased, or abject fear of being assaulted by a Partisan.

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