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CCW Laws......To those that don't know...Legally Packing Heat!

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CCW Laws......To those that don't know...Legally Packing Heat!

Old 9th May 2010, 23:15
  #241 (permalink)  
 
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Everyone Should Own A Gun For Protection And Possibly For Suicide | The Onion - America's Finest News Source
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Old 9th May 2010, 23:19
  #242 (permalink)  
 
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Say, checkboard, you never responded to Utah Senator Bob Bennet, heavily backed by the NRA, losing his state party's nomination for another term. See post #229 on this thread if you need the link.

No comment?

You were so positive about the control of my country by the NRA that you must have some rationale for this incongruity?

Otherwise, one might think that you don't know much about my country and just talk trash about things you really know nothing about.

Surely that's not the case, is it?
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Old 10th May 2010, 00:11
  #243 (permalink)  
 
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Sorry about that - I missed post "229, but I just had a quick read of the article. It is clear from the tone, that the author is stunned a Republican Senator with an NRA endorsement has lost his ticket. It was his namby-pamby left wind pandering on other issues which lost the confidence of his party.

If the author is amazed - then can not I be as well?
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Old 10th May 2010, 00:21
  #244 (permalink)  
 
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Amazed?

Sure.










Wrong as well.
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Old 10th May 2010, 00:39
  #245 (permalink)  
I'll mak siccar
 
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it's worked an absolute treat in the US as there is no rape, robbery, beatings etc over there................what is it Homer says DOH
You may want to look up the statistics for the US jurisdictions where the gun-carrying laws are least restrictive. I did a while back and they were instructive. The less certain a potential assailant is that a victim may be carrying, the less likely he is to try on any nonsense. Anyway, you did not answer the point about your 52 years in the UK. I lived there for 30 years and I could tell you of whole districts where even the police would not venture solo. In those days they did not so much have guns. The weapons of choice were the open razor and the bicycle chain. Remember Lord Carmont and his policy, and what made it necessary? Perhaps that has all been cleaned up since 1965.

I do not want to bore the readers here even more by retelling my past post about the louts watching and besetting the old lady in her cottage. The police could not help .... the budget, you see. Consultation with some of the young fishermen. Young fishermen visited louts and reasoned with them, suggested they git outta State, or at least the county, by sundown tomorrow. Louts complained to police. Alas, the police could not help .... same old story, you see, the budget. Police thought on balance the louts should git outta State, or at least the county, by sundown tomorrow. Louts left. Peace returned to the valley. A few guns and it would never have been lost.

Last edited by Davaar; 10th May 2010 at 01:18.
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Old 10th May 2010, 01:04
  #246 (permalink)  

 
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Originally Posted by brickhistory View Post
It would seem that the concept of individual rights and freedom of choice, independent of a government, is one lost on Euros.
Norway is in Europe Brick.

And the Euro is a currency, not a person.

It would seem that both those bits of data are lost on you.

I wonder why.
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Old 10th May 2010, 01:12
  #247 (permalink)  
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When I bade farewell to Seldom a few minutes ago, just by chance I picked up Oswald Spengler, The Decline of the West, and there at page 18 came on this:

When Plato speaks of humanity, he means the Hellenes in contrast to the barbarians, which is entirely consonant with the ahistoric mode of the Classical life and thought, and his premisses take him to conclusions that for Greeks were complete and significant. When, however, Kant philosophizes, say on ethical ideas, he maintains the validity of his theses for men of all times and places. He does not say this in so many words, for, for himself and his readers, it is something that goes without saying.
Can it be that the vision of Oxford too is limited by its own spires and cloisters?
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Old 10th May 2010, 01:16
  #248 (permalink)  
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If it helps, Juud, look at the context and it will be clear whether the term "Euro" refers to the currency or the people.

Use of "Euro" as a shorthand reference to the European ethnicity is fairly common and widely understood globally, just like "Septic" or "Yank" even though some Americans would contest whether those terms are proper.

You can see how Norway might be confusing as it is indeed in Europe, but not a member state of the European Union. By the way, it has maintained its own, quite respectable currency.
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Old 10th May 2010, 01:22
  #249 (permalink)  
 
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And the Euro is a currency, not a person.
And both can be very offensive at times.

I'm guessing that slang, even vaguely offensive ones, for Americans don't draw personal comments from you.

And I don't wonder why.
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Old 10th May 2010, 01:37
  #250 (permalink)  
 
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Davaar,

Can it be that the vision of Oxford too is limited by its own spires and cloisters?
Or said another way, there is no place quite so provincial as Paris (or London, or New York City, etc.)

Sometimes the people out in the countryside (or flyover land) have a very keen grasp of the basics. God bless 'em.
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Old 10th May 2010, 02:21
  #251 (permalink)  
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Seldomfitforpurpose Quote:

Crikey, your right I had not spotted that. In fact lets give everyone over here a gun and that will put a complete stop to that sort of thing, afterall it's worked an absolute treat in the US as there is no rape, robbery, beatings etc over there................what is it Homer says DOH
Violent crime in the U.S. has declined dramatically over the last 20 years to some of it's lowest points since the 1960s. Murder, rape, assault are all down to levels not seen since the 1960s, and there is an inverse coorelation to private firearm ownership and States issuing CCW permits, which have both increased dramatically.

Good estimates show support for over 1 million incidences per year where firearms are used by private citizens in self defence (some estimates are as high as 2 million). The number of justifiable homicides per year by private citizens is about the same number as for police countrywide.

And to shed a bit of light upon your claim that Europe is so benign a firearms wouldn't even be needed on the worst day, here are some UN-compiled numbers from 2009 of violent crime rates per 100,000 citizens in these selected countries......

Btw, to compare, the US's violent crime rate per 100,000 citizens was 466....

UK - 2034
Austria - 1677
Sweden - 1123
Belgium - 1006
Finland - 738
Netherlands - 676
Luxomburg - 565
France - 504

Total crime statistics show that the US is almost identical to the Netherlands at 80 per 1,000, and lower than Finland's (101), Demark (93), and the UK (86).

The trends are even more inconvenient for your claim. Crime is going down in the US, and up in Europe.

The Maglites don't seem to be working.
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Old 10th May 2010, 06:10
  #252 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Seldomfitforpurpose View Post
Aggravated Assault - Crime in the United States 2007

DOJ defo for violent crime

Definition

In the FBI’s Uniform Crime Reporting (UCR) Program, violent crime is composed of four offenses: murder and nonnegligent manslaughter, forcible rape, robbery, and aggravated assault. Violent crimes are defined in the UCR Program as those offenses which involve force or threat of force.

Overview
  • Nationwide, an estimated 1,408,337 violent crimes occurred in 2007.
  • There were an estimated 466.9 violent crimes per 100,000 inhabitants.
  • When data for 2007 were compared with 2006 data, the estimated volume of violent crime declined 0.7 percent.
  • Aggravated assault accounted for 60.8 percent of violent crimes, the highest number of violent crimes reported to law enforcement. Robbery comprised 31.6 percent and forcible rape accounted for 6.4 percent. Murder accounted for 1.2 percent of estimated violent crimes in 2007.
  • In 2007, offenders used firearms in 68.0 percent of the Nation’s murders, 42.8 percent of robberies, and 21.4 percent of aggravated assaults. (Weapon data are not collected for forcible rape offenses.) (Based on Robbery Table 3, Aggravated Assault Table, and Expanded Homicide Data Table 6.)
What you won't find on this page

Clearance and arrest data for violent crime.

Persons Arrested - Crime in the United States 2007

Overview
  • In 2007, the FBI estimated that 14,209,365 arrests occurred nationwide for all offenses (except traffic violations), of which 597,447 were for violent crimes, and 1,610,088 were for property crimes.
  • Law enforcement made more arrests for drug abuse violations (an estimated 1.8 million arrests, or 13.0 percent of the total number of arrests) than for any other offense in 2007. (Based on Table 29.)
  • Nationwide, the 2007 rate of arrests was estimated at 4,743.3 arrests per 100,000 inhabitants; for violent crime, the estimate was 200.2 per 100,000; and for property crime, the estimate was 544.1 per 100,000. (See Table 30.)
Seems we here in UK have quite a lot of catching up to do........................Stats, you got to love them
AMF,

As I previously said, Stats you really do have to love them
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Old 10th May 2010, 08:40
  #253 (permalink)  
 
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Danger

My better sense tells me to keep out of this one, but I saw this on the end of a Peter Gabriel video many years ago and thought I'd share it with you.

Being a "Euro" I have never felt the need / desire to own a firearm. I did, however become quite successful with martial arts on a national level. That gave me a lot of confidence - maybe this could be comparable to walking around with a loaded gun?

Roastie

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Old 10th May 2010, 09:06
  #254 (permalink)  
 
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I did, however become quite successful with martial arts on a national level. That gave me a lot of confidence - maybe this could be comparable to walking around with a loaded gun?
Or at least, a 6 D-cell Maglite.......
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Old 10th May 2010, 11:47
  #255 (permalink)  
AMF
 
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Seldomfitforpurpose Quote:

AMF,

As I previously said, Stats you really do have to love them
It's notable that you post the FBIs compiled crime stats collected from State and local authorities and use them with confidence. There is no political incentive for the FBI to fudge them, and if anything, the incentive is for local and State police to report and point to high crime rates in their never-ending fight for a larger piece of the local budget pie and federal dollars. The same can't be said for others, where centralized government creates incentives for local police to under-report crime or massage the nature of a crime to make itself look good, all the while lacking independent review. In this day and age, one has to just shake their head that a system like this still exists. I'm sure the Home Office really DOES love stats when they have created a system that allows them to be so fluid and self-serving rather than as a tool that could be used to serve the public.


By David Barrett, Home Affairs Correspondent
Published: 8:45PM GMT 05 Dec 2009

Police force 'tricks' to 'fiddle' crime figures

Police forces are using a series of tricks to manipulate crime figures to give a false picture of their performance, a former senior detective has revealed.

Police forces are using a series of tricks to manipulate crime figures to give a false picture of their performance, a former senior detective has revealed."
Serving police officers have confirmed that tricks are being used,

The techniques – dubbed "gaming" – are used to create the illusion that fewer crimes are being committed and that a bigger proportion are being solved.

Rodger Patrick, a retired Detective Chief Inspector, claimed that the methods are tacitly approved of by senior officers, police watchdogs and the Home Office

The claims will reignite the debate about the validity of crime statistics after recent figures suggested that crime fell four per cent in the second quarter of this year, and following the admission by a police watchdog that some forces are failing to record violent crime properly.
The techniques identified by Dr Patrick include:

:: "Cuffing" – in which officers make crimes disappear from official figures by either recording them as a "false report" or downgrading their seriousness. For example, a robbery in which a mobile phone is stolen with violence or threats of violence is recorded as "theft from the person", which is not classed as a violent crime.

:: "Stitching" – from "stitching up", whereby offenders are charged with a crime when there is insufficient evidence. Police know that prosecutors will never proceed with the case but the crime appears in police records to have been "solved".

:: "Skewing" – when police activity is directed at easier-to-solve crimes to boost detection rates, at the expense of more serious offences such as sex crimes or child abuse.

:: "Nodding" – where clear-up rates are boosted by persuading convicted offenders to admit to crimes they have not committed, in exchange for inducements such as a lower sentence.

Dr Patrick, who researched the subject for a PhD, said: "The academics call this 'gaming' but police officers would call it fiddling the figures, massaging the books or, the current favourite term, 'good housekeeping'. It is a bit like the police activities that we all thought stopped in the 1970s."

Serving police officers confirmed that the tricks were being used and gave examples of how they had been implemented.

In one case, an offender shot at another man at close range but missed and broke a window behind his target. The offence was recorded as criminal damage rather than attempted murder.

In another example, a man robbed in a city's red-light district – an area he had been innocently passing through – was told by officers they would be unable to record the crime without informing his wife he had been the area, leading to the complaint being withdrawn.

One detective, who declined to be named, said: "Name any crime and I'll tell you how it can be fiddled."

Simon Reed, vice-chairman of the Police Federation, which represents front line officers, said: "This research demonstrates that senior officers are directing and controlling widespread manipulation of crime figures.

"The public are misled, politicians can claim crime is falling and chief officers are rewarded with performance-related bonuses."

Last month Denis O'Connor, the Chief Inspector of Constabulary, published an official report into the way police record violent crime and admitted the figures may be skewed by "perverse incentives" around government performance targets.

Dr Patrick's research highlighted figures from his own former force, West Midlands, which reveal what happened when senior officers cracked down on one of the gaming techniques.

Rank and file officers were told in 2002 that informal police warnings could no longer be counted as a detection for common assaults.Within 12 months the number of recorded common assaults dropped from 22,000 to 3,000 while thousands more crimes switched to the category "other woundings".

"Such a rapid adjustment indicates the organisational nature of the phenomenon and suggests some form of co-ordination and direction by management," the research said."The scale of the 'gaming' behaviours measured in this thesis ... suggested senior officers were either directly orchestrating the behaviour or turning a blind eye to it."

Dr Patrick believes other gaming techniques are still being used in forces across the country.The report also warned that the use of "stitching" was "significant", while "cuffing" had continued after the introduction of Home Office rules which were supposed to guarantee and standardise the way crimes are recorded.

"Cuffing" can involve a situation where a victim of crime is accused of making a false crime report, and is therefore treated like a suspect rather than an injured party, Dr Patrick said. "You cannot have members of the public who have been victims of crime coming to the police for help and being treated like suspects. That is not right and it will erode confidence in the police," he said.

Dr Patrick found that watchdogs such as Her Majesty's Inspectorate of Constabulary (HMIC) and the Police Standards Unit had a "general tendency to underplay the scale and nature" of gaming. He was scathing of HMIC's failure to tackle the problem, noting there were no examples of chief police officers being publicly criticised by inspectors for this type of crime figure manipulation.

HMIC tended privately to refer examples of widespread gaming to the Home Secretary or the police authority rather than "hold the chief constable to account" because of the risk of political embarrassment, he said.
Dr Patrick concluded that HMIC inspectors should be made accountable to Parliament rather than the Home Office, and suggested they should be drawn from other professions rather than solely from senior police ranks.
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Old 10th May 2010, 14:00
  #256 (permalink)  
 
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Really, then why do all the police in Europe carry weapons, including some countries where they carry machine guns? Except England of course.
You must not have been there for a while, con.

Increasing numbers of English police carry arms, and have for quite some time.

Same is true of Welsh and Scottish police.

I am not quite sure why you ignore them.

But you did make what I thought was a reasoned point. You elect not to carry a gun, but defend the right to do so.

Perhaps some non Americans do not feel that the "right" is of any significance to them, because they do not want to sport arms.

Just a difference of culture to be put alongside one or two others?
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Old 10th May 2010, 16:23
  #257 (permalink)  
I'll mak siccar
 
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Not only do the police carry guns im England, they use them to go Pop! Pop! Pop! At people.

Remember poor Mr de Menezes in London, July 2005. Our colleague Seldom here, who foresees no dangers in England's green and pleasant land, should stay well away from the London Underground.

Three cousins of electrician Jean Charles de Menezes watched as Sir Ian Blair, the head of London's Metropolitan Police, gave evidence to politicians.

Mr de Menezes's relatives later said they were "horrified" to learn that the shoot-to-kill policy remained in place.

The influential all-party Home Affairs Select Committee questioned Sir Ian and Interior Minister Charles Clarke at length about the official response to the London bombings in July.

On July 22, police shot Mr de Menezes repeatedly in the head at a London Underground station after he was mistaken for a suicide bomber in circumstances which are still being investigated.
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Old 10th May 2010, 17:33
  #258 (permalink)  
 
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Davaaar,

don't know what your sources are, but the UK has no such thing as "Interior Minister"
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Old 10th May 2010, 17:39
  #259 (permalink)  

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You must not have been there for a while, con.

Increasing numbers of English police carry arms, and have for quite some time.

Same is true of Welsh and Scottish police.

I am not quite sure why you ignore them.

But you did make what I thought was a reasoned point. You elect not to carry a gun, but defend the right to do so.

Perhaps some non Americans do not feel that the "right" is of any significance to them, because they do not want to sport arms.

Just a difference of culture to be put alongside one or two others?
Well admittedly I have not been in England for the last five years. Prior to this I was in England quite often. While I did not inspect every police officer I saw, the only ones that I noticed carrying guns were those posted around the US Embassy. The rest I noticed were not armed, at least not that I could see.

When I was child living in England back the late 50s and early 60s I was told that most police stations only had one gun and I cannot remember ever seeing an armed Bobby. I don't know if the story about the one gun is true
or not, but then I was just a kid.

So it is more of a lack of knowledge rather than ignoring the fact that English are now more and more armed. I do know that the police in Ireland and Scotland are armed. I was unaware that the Welsh Police are armed. It has been a very long time since I anywhere near a Welsh Police Officer, about 50 years more or less.

Thank you for the information.
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Old 10th May 2010, 18:14
  #260 (permalink)  
 
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That's a bit narrow minded, PA! A pump or semi-auto shotgun loaded with a decent defensive round will also ensure that the castle doctrine can be backed up. Just as long as what you have doesn't over-penetrate.
Well, there you go. The bloody Yank fascination with auto or semi automatic weapons.

By the time you load a pump, arm it etc etc you are dead. Noise, time etc.

Get (or should it be 'git') yerself a Greener (Mr Wayne went for them). Stick one up the barrel, 00 if you want to do some damage. Ready immediately. Glue or tack a couple of additional rounds along the stock. With practice you can get shots off faster than yo can with a semi. Less noise on the start.

More than 3 rounds and yer fecked.
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