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UK politics - Hamsterwheel

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UK politics - Hamsterwheel

Old 1st Oct 2018, 09:00
  #16361 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by sidevalve View Post
OK, apart from K n C and PN..
Actually, PN, setting a precedent here, is almost correct.!

The current incarnation is a Mr J. Anderson

Previously a Mr S.Gerrard.

Other nations have also laid claim to this title.

A Mr G.Best for N.I., there was also a Mr I.Paisley although he got a bit over enthusiastic as to his representation here on Earth.

A Mr B. Shankly should also be mentioned, albeit his parish and disciples was limited

Finally, Wales, who had a surfeit of such deities during the time they ruled the R.U.world.

I hope this exemplifies my pragmatism in answer to your observation.

And we thank ORAC for today's enhancement of the topic with a suitably jingoistic piece of English litrityore.., thankfully not translated into Latin.

Last edited by Krystal n chips; 1st Oct 2018 at 09:16.
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Old 1st Oct 2018, 09:48
  #16362 (permalink)  
 
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Non-French speakers look away now..

Link to interesting viewpoint from across the Channel on how Brexit will change the UK and its relationship with the EU.

Marc Roche, a Belgian, was the London correspondent for Le Figaro (a right wing French broadsheet) for 25 years. He is pro-EU and says he would have voted Remain had he had a vote. He thinks the UK is in for some short term pain - but longer term we will pose a threat to the EU as we deregulate and attract significant foreign investment. He's just written a book - Le Brexit va réussir (Brexit is going to succeed).
============================================================ ============
From The Times:

Mon dieu! It is being hailed as possibly the most sensational conversion since Emperor Constantine embraced Christianity. Marc Roche, the Belgian-born former City of London correspondent for the arch Euro-federalist French daily Le Monde, and an eminent standard-bearer of the Europhile cultural establishment, has just published a book entitled Le Brexit va Réussir (Brexit will Succeed).

He says that once Britain leaves the EU, it has the wherewithal not just to survive but to prosper. Cue utter stupefaction in France where it is an article of faith that there can be no life outside the EU, and where wanting to leave it is viewed as proof of mental derangement (no similarity with Britain’s Remainers, obviously).

Roche himself used to share that general view. So what made him change his mind? He did something considered unthinkable in such refined circles. He went and spoke to people outside the metropolitan London bubble.

What he discovered was a different world which rapidly exposed the shallowness of his previous assumptions. Far from the Brexit vote being fuelled by white racists, he discovered that a “significant number” of people from ethnic minorities had backed Leave.

Instead of the universities being cut off from international scholarship, they were constructing a new global future for themselves. As for the City of London, he concluded, Brexit would liberate it to multiply its traditional assets: its time zone, the English language, the common law and its know-how in financial engineering.

It comes to something when a Belgian-born French journalist grasps realities about Britain that so many Brits themselves cannot perceive. That’s largely because the metropolitan classes are conditioned by a self-referential way of thinking. Well-heeled, well-educated people committed to multiculturalism, globalisation and other progressive causes tend to mix only with people like themselves.

This insulates them so completely they didn’t see Brexit coming. Now they attempt to explain it away by damning Leave voters as stupid or bigoted. The suggestion that they were voting for anything sensible or decent, such as independent self-government or democracy, is dismissed out of hand. The idea that the world’s fifth-largest economy would fare much better when unshackled from a protection racket whose purpose is to smash all competition is waved away as imbecilic. Only those motivated by xenophobia and racism, we are told, could have set themselves against the self-evident truths of Remain.
<snip>
This profound division causes those in the metropolitan bubble to get their society spectacularly wrong. The irony is that such people, who pride themselves on being open to ideas, are in fact stupendously narrow. Over the past couple of years, many a fashionable London dinner party has been ruined by the discovery of a Brexiteer among the guests who is regarded with as much horror as a mouse-dropping in the guacamole.

By contrast, those outside the bubble who are reviled as insular and closed-minded are exposed all the time to the metropolitan worldview, which assails them through every part of the culture. So their conclusions, formed under continuous fire, have rather firmer foundations.

Now those people, in Britain, Europe and the US, are in revolt. The context varies but in essence the revolt is against the alternative universe that has been constructed behind the invisible walls of social class and education by people intent upon remaking the whole world in their image.

They really can’t conceive of anything outside it that’s worthwhile, including the western nation and its values of citizenship, cultural identity and the rule of sovereign law. That’s why the fight over both Brexit and Trump is so visceral. And that’s why Roche is becoming a British citizen.
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Old 1st Oct 2018, 10:28
  #16363 (permalink)  
 
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KnC, just for you:

Hoc solium regum, hoc valida fulcis isle: Hæc terram de maiestatem, haec sedes Martis, hic aliud voluptatis a principio, ex semideis paradisum: Istud castrum illud a natura ad se contra infectio et manus belli, hoc beatum genus acre uirum, hoc paulo mundi iste preciosus lapis posuit in portum argentatum, quod est in officium de pariete aut in fossis defensus ad domum, contra invidiam et minus beatior agros, - hic beatus insidias, hic terrae huius regni, quod Anglia.

(All corrections from genuine classicists welcome!)
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Old 1st Oct 2018, 10:37
  #16364 (permalink)  
 
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Ok well a second referendum is too close to call. I accept that but what alternative is there? All other options appear to have been closed off. Another referendum with a final outcome seems fine to me. I will abide by whatever the outcome is from Remain to No Deal.
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Old 1st Oct 2018, 10:51
  #16365 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Trossie View Post
KnC, just for you:

Hoc solium regum, hoc valida fulcis isle: Hæc terram de maiestatem, haec sedes Martis, hic aliud voluptatis a principio, ex semideis paradisum: Istud castrum illud a natura ad se contra infectio et manus belli, hoc beatum genus acre uirum, hoc paulo mundi iste preciosus lapis posuit in portum argentatum, quod est in officium de pariete aut in fossis defensus ad domum, contra invidiam et minus beatior agros, - hic beatus insidias, hic terrae huius regni, quod Anglia.
The EU might borrow this one.
Sed si esset dare in quid de re inchoata, et conveniunt ad nos, vel nostrum regnum subditos ad Rex Anglia vel Anglica, et ubi sit pes ipsi statim ut expellam eum e cum nostris hostibus ac subversor, suo iure, et nostra tueri et alium hominem bene nobis regem et quod quamdiu manet et centum ex nobis vivit, et nos in aliquo non recte sub conditionibus imperio Anglis.

Perhaps there should be a thread just for JRM.
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Old 1st Oct 2018, 10:52
  #16366 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Effluent Man View Post
Ok well a second referendum is too close to call. I accept that but what alternative is there? All other options appear to have been closed off. Another referendum with a final outcome seems fine to me. I will abide by whatever the outcome is from Remain to No Deal.

What's wrong with just going with the result of the referendum which has already taken place ??
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Old 1st Oct 2018, 11:03
  #16367 (permalink)  
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neila83
You'd think by now they might have realised its the 21sy century and anisland nation going it alone isn't really so smart.​​​​​​
Has anyone told New Zealand?

For per capita GDP: only 11 EU countries (excluding the UK*) have a higher per capita GDP than New Zealand (with only two of those countries having populations smaller than New Zealand); New Zealand has a higher per capita GDP than the other 16 EU countries.

* The UK does have a higher per capita GDP than New Zealand. I only excluded it because it is, unlike the remainder of the EU, also 'an island nation'; also it will shortly no longer be an EU country, so just 'thinking ahead'.

Last edited by Trossie; 1st Oct 2018 at 15:14. Reason: Asterisk added.
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Old 1st Oct 2018, 11:11
  #16368 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Hussar 54 View Post
What's wrong with just going with the result of the referendum which has already taken place ??
It would be wrong not to go with the result of the referendum which has already taken place.

The Cameron government sent out a glossy brochure to all households stating very clearly what 'leave' would mean. Nobody can say that they didn't know what they were voting for. It happened. Live with it.
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Old 1st Oct 2018, 12:08
  #16369 (permalink)  
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Grayfly - Tacitus, “Agricola”

”Ipsī Britannī dīlēctum ac tribūta et iniūncta imperiī mūnia impigrē obeunt, sī iniūriae absint: hās aegrē tolerant, iam domitī ut pāreant, nōndum ut serviant. Igitur prīmus omnium Rōmānōrum dīvus Iūlius cum exercitū Britanniam ingressus, quamquam prōspera pugna terruerit incolās ac lītore potītus sit, potest vidērī ostendisse posterīs, nōn trādidisse.”
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Old 1st Oct 2018, 12:51
  #16370 (permalink)  
 
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They certainly do!
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Old 1st Oct 2018, 16:02
  #16371 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Trossie View Post
Nobody can say that they didn't know what they were voting for.
The irony is that those making that statement are the same ones who claim Brexit voters are thick!
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Old 1st Oct 2018, 17:47
  #16372 (permalink)  
 
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I said from day one that insufficient verifiable information was available to make a decision. We were treated to a whole panoply of lies and half truths in advance of the vote. At least now we have the opportunity to put that right. Once we know the deal let's have the vote proper. If people are happy with Toyota and JLR slinging their hooks after Brexit then so be it.
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Old 1st Oct 2018, 18:09
  #16373 (permalink)  
 
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It all depended whose lies and half truths the voters chose to believe and the half truths and lies of those advocating to Vote Leave were, it has to be said, ever so slightly more believable and closer to the truth than the crap Cameron and Osborne and even Obama, etc, etc, etc were spouting.

Having just written that, funny isn't it that all three of them are now ' out-of-it ' as far as having to justify their half truths and lies, whilst those politicos who supported Leave are still around and still taking flack from the sore losers - both in the UK and in Brussels.

As for Toyota and JLR....Whether the UK had stayed in the EU or not, they're capitalists and will go wherever thay make the most money, although having visited the Toyota plant in Derby and the Honda plant in Swindon ( I haven't been to Nissan ) I' m 101% certain they won't close down in a hurry - far, far too much invested there to suddenly close down.

JLR, on the other hand, I can see leaving the UK fairly soon without a UK <> USA FTA as their products are much more high-end and export oriented than Toyota, Honda and Nissan.
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Old 1st Oct 2018, 19:08
  #16374 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Effluent Man View Post
I said from day one that insufficient verifiable information was available to make a decision.
Over forty years of corruption, fraud, accounting scandals, dictatorial behaviour by unelected empire builders, wanton squandering of taxpayers money, vanity projects, bullying of dissenters, bureaucrats living high on the hog and any concept of democracy thrown to the dogs.

How much "information" do you need?
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Old 1st Oct 2018, 22:17
  #16375 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Gertrude the Wombat View Post
Would be funny if it wasn't so sad.
I'm sorry, I just don't buy the argument that brexiteers are racist. Your insinuation is offensive and without any basis in fact, either in relation to me, or the 52% in general.

As I said, we don't hate anyone; we just want our freedom. You do seem to have a little bit of hate inside you though.
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Old 2nd Oct 2018, 03:47
  #16376 (permalink)  
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Always nice to be educated regarding defunct, well almost, languages. " Agricola "..is this a new brand or a play on words from the line in the Kinks song "Lola " then ?

Back to more contemporary verbal communication and an interesting exchange between JR-M and Anna Soubrey last night.....not one that JR-M came out of well. Better get a few triple snorters down you chaps if you want to watch the whole programme, if not, stick to a double and fast forward to 15.35mins and thereafter.

https://www.channel4.com/news/tory-c...-brexit-cracks

As a palliative to the above, today's headlines in the Excess and the Mail should bring copious tears of joy to the JBinsularscenti along with a paragraph from Treeza's vision, the one above the "guide to Brexit jargon " to save you searching. Sounds great really, no more social leeching immigrants ....I like to keep the narrative aligned to the chaps on here thinking you understand....and scores of British workers set to toil ceaselessly in their place......yeah, right.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-45714413

Finally, my optimism for a reprise of "Dirty Dancing " was possibly a shade too optimistic given Boris now shown gambolling through the fields Treeza once did.....what else but therefore for the happy couple.

Last edited by Krystal n chips; 2nd Oct 2018 at 04:56.
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Old 2nd Oct 2018, 06:03
  #16377 (permalink)  
 
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Failing Grayling does it again!
The Transport Secretary who is skilled at not making the trains run on time, actually managed to arrive for his speech at the Tory conference 7 minutes late!
How does he do it?
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Old 2nd Oct 2018, 07:19
  #16378 (permalink)  
 
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s for Toyota and JLR....Whether the UK had stayed in the EU or not, they're capitalists and will go wherever thay make the most money, although having visited the Toyota plant in Derby and the Honda plant in Swindon ( I haven't been to Nissan ) I' m 101% certain they won't close down in a hurry - far, far too much invested there to suddenly close down.
Very few people have suggested that on day one of a no deal crash out of the EU UK car manufacturers will shut up shop and the leave the UK; however Toyota have said very publicly that there would likely be a short term shut down of production (with no time period placed on short term), Honda have also decided already to shut down for the whole of April, irrespective of what happens as regards the outcome of the negotiations. For JLR I really don't see the relevance of a UK/USA trade deal in whether they stay in or leave the UK, that hoped for trade deal is years away, especially with Trump in charge of the Whitehouse.

The issue is what happens in the medium / long term; and what is more likely than not is that there will be a hemorrhaging of production from the UK to EU plants; whether the UK gets some sort of trade deal or not, since the single market / customs union are major factors in these Japanese and German car manufacturers being here - as well as our lax labour laws. The latter may have to be relaxed even further as carrots to retain some of this industry and that can not be good for the UK employees going forward.
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Old 2nd Oct 2018, 08:18
  #16379 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by sitigeltfel View Post
Over forty years of corruption, fraud, accounting scandals, dictatorial behaviour by unelected empire builders.......
EU's Juncker warns Italy not to go ahead with proposed 2019 budget
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Old 2nd Oct 2018, 08:25
  #16380 (permalink)  
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ATN, as it happens we had a presentation by a major car component manufacturer, one whose enterprise is preeminent in Europe and which Europe needs probably more than in UK. A hard Brexit will affect them in the short term. To counter this they are building up stocks. They have to build up cash reserves as VAT will need to be paid upfront and reclaimed 3 months later. They need additional cash for bank guarantees.

Essentially Brexit will be an interruption but they expect to return to steady state and growth.
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