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UK politics - Hamsterwheel

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UK politics - Hamsterwheel

Old 29th Oct 2018, 10:14
  #16341 (permalink)  
 
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Gertrude: Re this "Money Tree": That has been suffering an awful lot of shaking lately hasn't it? It seems to currently be the Conservatives' favourite piece of horticulture at the moment as all one hears is "we have increased spending on (choose a department) by xx£billion since..." Or"This government is committed to increasing spending on (pick another department or lobby group here) by another XX£billion". In fact, I would say those lines, or something similar, are most often heard as an almost standard government response to most questions raised in PMQ, usually as a way to avoid answering a question directly. And this money tree is a marvel as it doesn't need feeding. A tax cut here and a tax cut there.
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Old 29th Oct 2018, 10:31
  #16342 (permalink)  
 
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However long the immigration issue continues to be flogged as an excuse for Brexit, the basic fact is that the majority of immigration and consequent dependency on resources has always come from outside the EU. Brexit is not going to change that one iota. If we couldn't control it before, there is no reason to think we can change it now.
One of the Brexiteers' own frighteners was the threat of 100 million new immigrants coming from Turkey that was apparently about to join the EU. We know what happened to that little gem.
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Old 29th Oct 2018, 12:19
  #16343 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by ATNotts View Post
I by and large our European friends tend to arrive here without the baggage of rather large extended families, and are for the most part young working people with no, or very small families that are not a big pull on the welfare koffers. They are often also short term residents,
True, but while their families might be back home I believe they are in receipt of child allowance etc which is remitted to their home country. I can't give a reference but recall it from an article recently.

Regarding 'temporary ' our Lithuanian car wash has had the same guys running it for a number of years. One is married, has had two children and they are at a local school. The Boston Polish and Portuguese population is also pretty permanent.

Last edited by Pontius Navigator; 29th Oct 2018 at 16:18.
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Old 29th Oct 2018, 14:37
  #16344 (permalink)  
 
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True, but while their families might be back home I believe they are in receipt of child allowance etc which is remitted to their home country. I can't give a reference but recall it from an article recently.
A number of EU states aren't happy about that either and efforts have been made to stop or curtail it. The Polish and other governments are agin such legislation and point out that because the much lower costs in their countries, host nations of migrant workers are better off having their child allowance sent to Poland etc than paying for education of their children in UK!! That may be true, but it doesn't fly in the eyes of public opinion.
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Old 29th Oct 2018, 14:41
  #16345 (permalink)  
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Were I Jewish or a rich man living in Britain, I'd see no difference between what I'd think Momentum would like to do with me and what Momentum tell me the far right would like to do with me. In either event, were Momentum to gain power, I'd leave.
The money tree, or so John MacDonnell has told the public, is in the Caymans. He's going to dig it up and bring it to Britain, or so he said. The UK government has a lot of leverage with the Caymans, so he probably could do just that, given the opportunity.
For all that, the resource of Jews and rich men living in Britain, and that's by no means a synonymity, is not unlimited and neither is the Cayman money tree. Phillip Hammond said yesterday that if there were a no deal Brexit, he'd have to have an emergency budget geared to turning Britain into a low tax, Singapore style economy. Today the FTSE is up 120pts at lunch time. You'd better hope like Jimmy Cricket for a no deal Brexit, that just might produce an almost infinite resource.
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Old 29th Oct 2018, 14:47
  #16346 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sallyann1234 View Post
However long the immigration issue continues to be flogged as an excuse for Brexit, the basic fact is that the majority of immigration and consequent dependency on resources has always come from outside the EU. Brexit is not going to change that one iota. If we couldn't control it before, there is no reason to think we can change it now.
One of the Brexiteers' own frighteners was the threat of 100 million new immigrants coming from Turkey that was apparently about to join the EU. We know what happened to that little gem.
You are right: the majority of immigrants arrive from outside the EU. Pretty sure that all who post on this thread are well aware of the fact.

But your reiteration of the point is a red-herring.

Imigration policy for nationals outside the EU is a matter for the UK government. If the electorate donít like the policy they have the opportunity to vote in a new government every 5 years.

There is no UK policy for EU nationals. We are EU citizens, members of the single market and must accept free movement of all our fellow EU citizens. Note: no you were not in a coma when the UK voted on this; we were not given the option.

The point during the referendum for me, and I suspect many others, was that a Sovereign Nation is not a Sovereign Nation if it cannot control its own immigration policy.

As as for the Turks. It was Boris (Turkish ancestry) who pointed out that when Turkey joins the EU (the direction of traffic at the time) 50M Turks would have the absolute right of free movement to the UK.

He didnít suggest they all would. But then again, at the 2004 enlargement, Blair and Brown, poured scorn on those Ďlittle-Englandersí who voiced concern over uncontrolled immigration from Eastern Europe, suggesting that estimates of anything more than a few tens of thousands was scaremongering.

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Old 29th Oct 2018, 15:17
  #16347 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sallyann1234 View Post
...the majority of immigration and consequent dependency on resources has always come from outside the EU.
But... until they are granted indefinite leave to remain (an absolute minimum of 5 years after arrival) they are not entitled to any state benefits (except for genuine refugees), as they must be here on a work visa or a fiancťe/spouse visa, and they must also pay an annual NHS insurance charge. I don't see the same rules applying to EU immigrants.

Last edited by MFC_Fly; 29th Oct 2018 at 16:59.
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Old 29th Oct 2018, 16:38
  #16348 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Gertrude the Wombat View Post
Not surprised. All leavers do that rather than actually answer the question.
Maybe because the question is too broad in its scope and almost impossible to answer objectively.

Youíve already alluded to freedom of movement as a benefit of EU membership. Others may consider the strain on public services and downward pressure on wages. Better means different things to different people.

A lot of Remainers would look at the economic benefits of EU membership, but I donít think there is a consensus on what the economic landscape will look like in say 5 years either in the UK or the EU.
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Old 29th Oct 2018, 18:38
  #16349 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by KelvinD View Post
Gertrude: Re this "Money Tree": That has been suffering an awful lot of shaking lately hasn't it? It seems to currently be the Conservatives' favourite piece of horticulture at the moment
Yup. A classic example is "reduce business rates".

Great, until you remember that business rate receipts are being transferred to councils, so another way of spelling this would be "yet more cuts to council services".
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Old 29th Oct 2018, 18:39
  #16350 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Andy_S View Post
Maybe because the question is too broad in its scope and almost impossible to answer objectively.
So if it's impossible to state what the benefits of leaving are why does anyone think it's a good idea?
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Old 29th Oct 2018, 19:42
  #16351 (permalink)  
 
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I see the chancellor is earmarking an extra £2bn for mental health services. Will that be enough to treat all the carpet chewing Remainers, especially the fruitbat with his silly costume, EU flag and banners who does his pathetic little dance behind TV reporters outside Parliament ? His deranged antics sum up the entire Remain movement !
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Old 29th Oct 2018, 20:06
  #16352 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Dutystude View Post
You are right: the majority of immigrants arrive from outside the EU. Pretty sure that all who post on this thread are well aware of the fact.
But your reiteration of the point is a red-herring.

On the contrary, it is entirely relevant when the reduction of immigration is claimed to be a benefit of Brexit

Imigration policy for nationals outside the EU is a matter for the UK government. If the electorate don’t like the policy they have the opportunity to vote in a new government every 5 years.
Really? Successive governments have made it a declared policy to reduce immigration, and they have failed to do so. According to your theory, the electorate are not bothered about immigration since they still elected the last two governments.

All Brexit can do is apply the same failed controls to the smaller number of EU nationals, that have not reduced the larger number of non-EU nationals.
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Old 29th Oct 2018, 20:14
  #16353 (permalink)  

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"So if it's impossible to state what the benefits of leaving are why does anyone think it's a good idea?"

That little Farage stalking-horse' scaremongering panicked Cameron into holding a referendum with the result that we all know.
It'll be bad for the EU and much worse for Britain, long and short-term.

Mac
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Old 29th Oct 2018, 20:21
  #16354 (permalink)  
 
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The Metropolitan Police are creating their own cadre of "Zampolits"...

https://www.met.police.uk/car/career...ssor-overview/
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Old 29th Oct 2018, 21:10
  #16355 (permalink)  
 
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I see the Budget is going to raise the tax thresholds. I bet Ayatollah Sturgeon will put a stop to that.
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Old 30th Oct 2018, 07:54
  #16356 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by sitigeltfel View Post
I see the chancellor is earmarking an extra £2bn for mental health services. Will that be enough to treat all the carpet chewing Remainers, especially the fruitbat with his silly costume, EU flag and banners who does his pathetic little dance behind TV reporters outside Parliament ? His deranged antics sum up the entire Remain movement !
Siti old boy !

Hast thou been watching repeats of Nige gracing our screens, or, art thou referring to one J.R-M here ?.......tis difficult to tell as both fulfil the criteria you have kindly provided above

Anyway, many Mail readers probably won't be in work today after celebrating Phil's generosity to support their lifestyles......and, better still, the scroungers get next to nothing !......that's just what these people deserve after all....they should have inherited wealth, worked harder at school, and arse licked their way to the top thereafter !

Thankfully, Middle Hingerlahnd have been spared the potential social ignominy of little Tamsin and Tarquin being forced to wear last years designer cast offs and Yummy Mummy can still arrive at the school gates in this years top of the range model of the marque of choice. And, of course, not being reduced a mere one cruise a year !.

Unfortunately, there's a little twist in the Tory largesse as the article points out......which is a neat bit of Tory duplicity now isn't it chaps. Not to worry though, you can all plan a little celebratory splurge this weekend at "La Truffilino Porcine " probably making sure you pass the local food bank en -route to mock the poor people, hwah ! hwah !.......and, when reality possibly kicks in, pause to think about a very uncertain economic future for the UK and the population

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...n-tax-giveaway

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-the-papers-46026729

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...budget-cartoon

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...nefit-the-rich

Last edited by Krystal n chips; 30th Oct 2018 at 10:57.
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Old 30th Oct 2018, 11:04
  #16357 (permalink)  
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According to your theory, the electorate are not bothered about immigration since they still elected the last two governments.
Irrelevant. A Government is elected in its whole manifesto with the small section of floating voters deciding the outcome. As far as they've are concerned they may not be voting for any one item, e.g. Immigration, but for, in their opinion, the least bad option.
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Old 30th Oct 2018, 12:30
  #16358 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Pontius Navigator View Post
Irrelevant. A Government is elected in its whole manifesto with the small section of floating voters deciding the outcome. As far as they've are concerned they may not be voting for any one item, e.g. Immigration, but for, in their opinion, the least bad option.
I agree with you!
The statement I was replying to was that:
Imigration policy for nationals outside the EU is a matter for the UK government. If the electorate donít like the policy they have the opportunity to vote in a new government every 5 years.
Clearly the electorate do not feel sufficiently strongly about immigration for it to change their voting.
The fact remains that for whatever reason, successive governments have failed to tackle immigration from outside the EU, and Brexit will do nothing whatever to correct that problem.
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Old 30th Oct 2018, 13:00
  #16359 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sallyann1234 View Post
On the contrary, it is entirely relevant when the reduction of immigration is claimed to be a benefit of Brexit


Really? Successive governments have made it a declared policy to reduce immigration, and they have failed to do so. According to your theory, the electorate are not bothered about immigration since they still elected the last two governments.

All Brexit can do is apply the same failed controls to the smaller number of EU nationals, that have not reduced the larger number of non-EU nationals.
All true again Sally.

Except that, while successive Conservative/Coalition Governments have woefully failed to reduce non-EU immigration by any significant amount, it remains Government Policy to do so. Governments of all hues often fail to achieve their goals.

You may believe that the UK will never be able to control non-EU immigration; I donít agree.

But, Iím sure that you will agree that if we remain in the EU the UK will never be able to control immigration from the soon to be expanded EU.


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Old 30th Oct 2018, 18:15
  #16360 (permalink)  
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A simpleton wiv no (self proclaimed ) IT expertise writes.........
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