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UK politics - Hamsterwheel

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UK politics - Hamsterwheel

Old 6th Aug 2018, 15:04
  #15361 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ATNotts View Post
b) Switzerland is within Schengen. (The UK government wouldn't join that either)
Ireland is not within Schengen. The UK and Ireland have common travel area that goes back a long, long time before Schengen.

How come Jersey works and somehow this is 'complicated' when it comes to the Northern Ireland border? What about Guernsey, or the Isle of Mann? They are all outside the EU and its Customs Area.

I am convinced that it is just mischief-makers determined to cause trouble with the Northern Ireland border for their own narrow-minded ends. And I don't see the UK wanting to make that mischief.
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Old 6th Aug 2018, 15:13
  #15362 (permalink)  
 
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When people attack a Left wing bookshop, the BBC labels them "fascists".

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-45075895

But when another group attack Jacob Rees-Moggs house, garden and car, they are simply "vandals".

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-45075895

I'm glad they have cleared that up as there is obviously no political motive behind the latter.

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Old 6th Aug 2018, 15:19
  #15363 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by sitigeltfel View Post
When people attack a Left wing bookshop, the BBC labels them "fascists".

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-45075895
Wrong! That was not a BBC label. The BBC were quoting what Billy Bragg had said. Hence the use of quotation marks in their title.
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Old 6th Aug 2018, 15:48
  #15364 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Trossie View Post
Ireland is not within Schengen. The UK and Ireland have common travel area that goes back a long, long time before Schengen.

How come Jersey works and somehow this is 'complicated' when it comes to the Northern Ireland border? What about Guernsey, or the Isle of Mann? They are all outside the EU and its Customs Area.

I am convinced that it is just mischief-makers determined to cause trouble with the Northern Ireland border for their own narrow-minded ends. And I don't see the UK wanting to make that mischief.
I wish it was, but it's not. Imagine, if you will, the pandemonium there would be in sections of the UK press, not to mention among the majority of the British public (me included!) if the Turkish / Bulgarian border, or the Ukraine / polish border wasn't a hard border. They are both EU external frontiers that we and all other states insist are properly controlled, hence the requirement for Frontex. The border on the island of Ireland is, or at least will be sometime between April 2019 and January 1 2021 exactly the same - an EU external border, which is why the EU is pretty insistent that it is such, unless the UK and EU can come to some sensible accommodation. That sensible accommodation could be EEA, perhaps the (or at least "a") customs Union, or something else workable that so hasn't been dreamed up; and we're not far short of the dream turning into a nightmare as the proverbial "clock is ticking". The claim that the N.I border is somehow different just doesn't wash; the argument that it should because "we're British" likewise. The problem is that the mechanisms of the Good Friday agreement were agreed when nobody, apart from a very few MPs are pressure groups, ever contemplated the UK walking away from the EU, and that just makes matters even more difficult to resolve. It would be easier if the Single Market had never been invented; but it was and it will continue long after the UK has exited stage left.

If the UK and EU were to split with the "no deal" scenario so beloved of Liam Fox and his extreme Brexit cronies; the chances of Northern Ireland's economy going pear shaped, and worse, a potential return to the troubles is probably too serious to contemplate.

Jersey and Guernsey are not members of the EU, and goods require customs clearance when they are landed in the EU (the UK for the most part). How they have got around the question of physical borders I really don't know, but I imagine that because they are Islands the water negates some of the practical problems. Isle of Man is within the UK customs area and no clearance of goods is required. All these three examples are centuries old, and not particularly politically sensitive.
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Old 6th Aug 2018, 16:55
  #15365 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ATNotts View Post
  • To ensure the continued open border between UK and Republic of Ireland (probably, politically the most important reason)
  • To ensure continued unfettered access to European markets for the many international businesses that have chosen to base themselves in the UK as their country of choice within the EU. Also to ensure the UK financial services industry retains, and can grow it's influence across Europe.
  • To ensure all our population has free, unfettered access to working and living throughout the EU
  • To ensure our working population retains the protections that would never have been brought in were the UK not pushed, shoved and cajoled into accepting (annual leave, working time etc)
  • To enable our fruit and veg farmers, hospitality providers, road hauliers have free access to workers who want to do the work that frankly many Brits who are unemployed don't want to, not can't, do.

That'll do for starters. I'm sure other among the enlightened on this thread can come up with a few more.
Thanks for the reply. I'm yet to be convinced:

The Irish border is a non-issue. The UK government, the EU and the Irish government have all stated that they have no intention of imposing a hard border.

Trade related concerns may be real, but they're manageable and there may be as much upside as downside.

Yes, the right to live and work anywhere in the EU is a useful facility, for those few lucky enough to take advantage. It is of course, more of an inward than an outward flow of labour, due to the English language and the lower wages in many countries. But it was possible to work and live in Europe pre EU, though not so easy as now.

This country lead the world with equal rights for female workers and other 'just' legislation. We can give workers as much protection as society demands, once we've left. We didn't need the EU to tell us to do the right thing in the past and we won't in the future.

If I were a farmer, or any sort of employer, then Poles would be my choice of employee - they're great people, brilliant workers. But it would be better for the UK if our unemployed were encouraged to do the work. Farmers/supermarkets/consumers can afford another 10p on the price of a bag of spuds to encourage our reluctant workers.
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Old 6th Aug 2018, 16:58
  #15366 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sallyann1234 View Post
I was hoping that post would be ignored. There is more than enough discussion for Zebedee to read on the two Brexit threads, without getting this one closed as well.
We will all see what actually happens in a year's time.
You can hope all you want, madam.
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Old 6th Aug 2018, 17:10
  #15367 (permalink)  
 
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Yes, the right to live and work anywhere in the EU is a useful facility, for those few lucky enough to take advantage. It is of course, more of an inward than an outward flow of labour, due to the English language and the lower wages in many countries. But it was possible to work and live in Europe pre EU, though not so easy as now.

This country lead the world with equal rights for female workers and other 'just' legislation. We can give workers as much protection as society demands, once we've left. We didn't need the EU to tell us to do the right thing in the past and we won't in the future.

If I were a farmer, or any sort of employer, then Poles would be my choice of employee - they're great people, brilliant workers. But it would be better for the UK if our unemployed were encouraged to do the work. Farmers/supermarkets/consumers can afford another 10p on the price of a bag of spuds to encourage our reluctant workers.
The English language, and our great British unwillingness to speak "foreign"!

Supermarkets would only accept the additional 10p per kg on the cost if they could pass it on to customers, but we love our cheap food. I really don't know just how much it would take to convince the idle to work in the fields. A deal more than the minimum or even the living wage I'd bet. What we need post Brexit is some compulsion to make the idle work, on pain of losing their benefits. but of course the do gooders will say, perhaps with some justification, that if that was done it wouldn't be the idle who would suffer, they'd still manage to pay for the Sky sub, booze and tobacco, whilst the kids go without a decent pair of shoes and a square meal.
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Old 6th Aug 2018, 18:08
  #15368 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by sitigeltfel View Post
When people attack a Left wing bookshop, the BBC labels them "fascists".

But when another group attack Jacob Rees-Moggs house, garden and car, they are simply "vandals".
I don't condone "attacking" anything as part of the normal political process - we haven't quite got there yet - but there is a difference. A small independent bookshop is normally a family's only means of earning a living, where as JRM has lots of houses, gardens, and cars, and could buy a few dozen more without noticing the cost.
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Old 6th Aug 2018, 18:16
  #15369 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Gertrude the Wombat View Post
where as JRM has lots of houses, gardens, and cars, and could buy a few dozen more without noticing the cost.
So, you consider it acceptable to rob the rich?
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Old 6th Aug 2018, 18:23
  #15370 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Gertrude the Wombat View Post
I don't condone "attacking" anything as part of the normal political process - we haven't quite got there yet - but there is a difference. A small independent bookshop is normally a family's only means of earning a living, where as JRM has lots of houses, gardens, and cars, and could buy a few dozen more without noticing the cost.
Also employs a nanny....don't forget the nanny....having a nanny on the books is always a neat way to show ones social standing...

Robbing the rich ?...well some enterprising Irishman named Jack Duggan was doing ok until it all ended a bit suddenly one day....and fundamentally, there's actually nothing wrong with this, although some arcane by laws tend to be an inconvenience in this respect.
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Old 6th Aug 2018, 18:24
  #15371 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Gertrude the Wombat View Post
... where as JRM has lots of houses, gardens, and cars, and could buy a few dozen more without noticing the cost.
That is a disgusting concept and should never, ever come into judging what is right or wrong regarding criminal damage.
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Old 6th Aug 2018, 18:26
  #15372 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Krystal n chips View Post
Also employs a nanny....don't forget the nanny....having a nanny on the books is always a neat way to show ones social standing...

...
So you would prefer that the nanny was unemployed? What about her 'social standing' then?
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Old 6th Aug 2018, 18:29
  #15373 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Trossie View Post
That is a disgusting concept and should never, ever come into judging what is right or wrong regarding criminal damage.
So you'd junk all the "victim impact statement" rubbish then.
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Old 6th Aug 2018, 18:30
  #15374 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Trossie View Post
So you would prefer that the nanny was unemployed? What about her 'social standing' then?
Don't worry, if she hasn't already gone "back" to where she came from in the EU27 she'll be on her way soon.
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Old 6th Aug 2018, 18:30
  #15375 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ATNotts View Post
The English language, and our great British unwillingness to speak "foreign"!
...
Maybe you should discuss that one with Frederick Forsyth. He seems to think that it is quite understandable that the English don't 'speak "foreign" ' and gives rational reasons for the situation.
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Old 6th Aug 2018, 18:33
  #15376 (permalink)  
 
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Stop trying to wriggle out of your own comments, Gertie. You know what I mean.

And you're starting to sound like KnC.
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Old 6th Aug 2018, 18:39
  #15377 (permalink)  
 
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let's just say I can't see Boris or Mogg suffering whatever happens - doesn't Mogg pay himself several thousand quid an hour for his "expertise"???
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Old 6th Aug 2018, 19:30
  #15378 (permalink)  
 
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Agree with those who reckon that the Irish border issues are a non-issue, IMHO they are being raised by those disingenuous remain people who forget all the other stated places that don’t currently have border issues and are not in the EU, or any constituent parts of it for that matter, the only difference is they are not trying to leave and have people who will stoop to the lowest levels possible to win their way of staying in, no matter what the cost to the UK, and the government is not doing much to scotch any of the latest anti exit rhetoric, in fact they are actually behind some/most of it.

As for all this talk of a ‘no deal’ there is technically no such thing, as all that will happen is trading will continue under WTO and tariffs may or may not be applied, although one area that will change is the current EU tariffs the UK has to pay for importing from non-EU countries will stop, oh and the ‘tariff’, or payment, the UK make each year to the EU for the privilege of that free movement and trade should also stop, all depending on whether May and Co don’t surrender the UK to remain tied to EU control and continue to pay for the privilege of being in that position, and without a say.
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Old 6th Aug 2018, 19:49
  #15379 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sallyann1234 View Post
Wrong! That was not a BBC label. The BBC were quoting what Billy Bragg had said. Hence the use of quotation marks in their title.
They didn't bother to correct or challenge the comment by the multi millionaire, anti-Semitic, Corbynite.
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Old 6th Aug 2018, 20:10
  #15380 (permalink)  
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I know we have talked food before but I wonder about supply and tariffs. 30% of our food is imported from the internal protected market. Is there a tariff on imported NZ lamb and butter to protect the internal market?

Do we import Australian beef? It used to be available in Cyprus before Cyprus joined the EU.

By coincidence perhaps there was an article about Blue Skys who have production in Egypt and Gambia amongst others. Is there a tariff penalty on imports into the EU?

What food do we import from the EU that is not readily available from outside? Israeli citrus fruits vice Spanish. As for wine, who would miss the French, German and Italian when we have Australia and New Zealand not to mention Americans?
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