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UK politics - Hamsterwheel

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UK politics - Hamsterwheel

Old 17th Jan 2018, 08:14
  #13501 (permalink)  
 
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orced to follow Brussels Diktat which I understand was responsible for there being separated track and train companies
Be interested to see the details behind that Brussel’s diktat and how it was applied in the U.K. vs. other places in the EU.

As a frequent user of the French system as I vaguely understand it’s workings SNCF still own the whole train set, they in turn then have their own separate sub companies to run the likes of the TGVs and the RER (regional). AFAIK they haven’t yet farmed our the likes of e.g. regional trains completely to other operators (I’ve just dig out a ticket I bought to use the RER locally just two days ago and it is certainly claims to be an SNCF company ... not “Operated by——- on behalf of SNCF” etc.....)
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Old 17th Jan 2018, 09:02
  #13502 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Krystal n chips View Post

What are the chances of the staff being now made redundant being reemployed as a condition of a JV agreement ?
It's happened before in Carillion JV's. They had a JV called Carillion Enterprise which won MOD work, which then morphed into Carillion Amey when Amey took over Enterprise. This will now no doubt morph into XXX?Amey to continue providing the service.
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Old 17th Jan 2018, 11:31
  #13503 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Krystal n chips View Post
It's the knock on effect on those sub contractors where the real damage will be felt.
I'm puzzled as to why any of them would accept 120 day payment terms.

I would never accept anything longer than 30 days, and on day 31 I would issue an invoice for the interest under the Late Payment of Commercial Debts legislation, and, obviously, stop working for the client, as, obviously, I'd be too busy looking for a new client. (Didn't have to do this very often, as the clients were always bright enough to work out that they could borrow from the bank lots cheaper than they could borrow from me.)

Now, 30 days leaves you exposed for two months, the month that's just ending and last month's bill that they (legitimately) haven't paid yet. If you can't afford that you factor and/or insure as necessary (which costs, of course, but gets rid of some of the risk).

The whole point is ... subcontractors only work in order to get paid. So why TF would they carry on working for someone who isn't going to pay them?????
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Old 17th Jan 2018, 11:47
  #13504 (permalink)  
 
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I suppose if it's the only game in town and your company is committed to and has geared up to support a contract, both in manning and materials then they had to swllow the pill and accept the changes in terms.


The guy filling up his Company van with fuel while admirable struck me as naive, he might turn up to find the vehicle is on fleet hire and promptly repossessed and with the company in receivership his chances of being reimbursed are nought.

I once worked for a Company that went bust and turning up at work that evening to sort out moving my tooling I was amazed to see the staff helping fill the company owners truck with the aircraft spares, enquiring what was going on, they gleefully told me they were getting them away before the receiver could get his "grubby" hands on them... I then pointed out those assets are what the receiver would sell to pay them their lost wages etc.. It suddenly dawned on them and they promptly offloaded them again, much to the chargrin of those sent to spirit them away.
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Old 17th Jan 2018, 14:21
  #13505 (permalink)  
 
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When the administrators moved into Carillion, did they find a note that said, "I'm afraid to tell you there's no money left"?
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Old 17th Jan 2018, 15:08
  #13506 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Gertrude the Wombat View Post
I'm puzzled as to why any of them would accept 120 day payment terms.
This is fairly common in the construction industry, not just Carillion. Nobody actually accepts 120 day payments, it is something you find out after you've submitted your 30 day payment invoice. Then the excuses start, too many to list here. As the industry is controlled by these large organisations, it is as said here before, the only game in town.

The laughable part of all of this is that in order to get a contract from these large companies you had to go through all sorts of hoops to get approval to be on their supply chain. Some used to even demand an administration charge for handling your application. You actually had to prove you were financially sound. If you are financially sound you can absorb the 120 day payment seemed to be their logic.
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Old 17th Jan 2018, 15:57
  #13507 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Grayfly View Post
This is fairly common in the construction industry, not just Carillion. Nobody actually accepts 120 day payments, it is something you find out after you've submitted your 30 day payment invoice. Then the excuses start, too many to list here. As the industry is controlled by these large organisations, it is as said here before, the only game in town.

The laughable part of all of this is that in order to get a contract from these large companies you had to go through all sorts of hoops to get approval to be on their supply chain. Some used to even demand an administration charge for handling your application. You actually had to prove you were financially sound. If you are financially sound you can absorb the 120 day payment seemed to be their logic.

I’ve heard that Carillion’s T&Cs sometimes included a clause that more or less said ‘You’ll get paid when we get paid.’ i.e. At the completion of the whole contract.
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Old 17th Jan 2018, 16:05
  #13508 (permalink)  
 
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The T&C's of these organisations would normally comply with legislation, otherwise, you don't get that Government contract. It is the culture and behaviours of the management and commercial teams that result in 120 day payments. If your profit margin is only around 2% you need the supply chain to finance you for the length of the contract.

These contractors would probably make more money by investing in a savings account instead of bidding for a large project.
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Old 17th Jan 2018, 16:53
  #13509 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Grayfly View Post
These contractors would probably make more money by investing in a savings account instead of bidding for a large project.
That was something that puzzled me when I worked for a large multinational organisation that posted ten years successional losses at a time when deposit interest rates were 'positive'.

I decided that there had to be some creative accounting in operation.
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Old 17th Jan 2018, 17:25
  #13510 (permalink)  
 
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The saga in Westminster goes on, however, I do believe the old sales maxim is alive and well here. You will usually by something from an organisation that is pretty much like your own.

If you are a bureaucratic inefficient Government department you will likely appoint a bureaucratic inefficient contractor. You know you are likeminded and you will get on. You speak the same language and keen to kick any problems into the long grass. You understand each other. You know the project will get finished, just like the last one, late and over budget. No need to change.

Put a Government Department up against a lean and agile contractor who innovates to deliver value for money and they will run a mile. It's just not done. The Olympic Delivery team were perhaps one of the exceptions to this rule.
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Old 17th Jan 2018, 17:40
  #13511 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by sitigeltfel View Post
When the administrators moved into Carillion, did they find a note that said, "I'm afraid to tell you there's no money left"?
There will be plenty of money left to pay the administrators, you may be sure of that.
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Old 17th Jan 2018, 17:45
  #13512 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Grayfly View Post
This is fairly common in the construction industry, not just Carillion. Nobody actually accepts 120 day payments, it is something you find out after you've submitted your 30 day payment invoice. Then the excuses start, too many to list here.
To me excuses for failing to pay mean the client is going down the tubes. so you stop working for them immediately (why the f**k would you want to go on working for nothing???) and bung in the "sue online" form quick before everybody else does.

It worked for me - got excuses on the phone, then I said "look mate, I've filled in the sue online form, I'm sitting here with my finger over the submit button, do you want me to press it?". He paid, and they went bust a few months later.
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Old 17th Jan 2018, 17:46
  #13513 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sallyann1234 View Post
There will be plenty of money left to pay the administrators, you may be sure of that.
We're told there isn't, which is why the official receiver is doing it.
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Old 17th Jan 2018, 17:49
  #13514 (permalink)  
 
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There are no administrators. They apply when a company goes into administration and they try to run the company until it can get back on its feet or is sold.
Carillion have the official receivers in and their sole job is to realise whatever funds they can from what is effectively the ruins of the company.
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Old 18th Jan 2018, 04:30
  #13515 (permalink)  
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Prophead....

Thank you for that informative reply and insight. Hopefully, this will continue to apply in the current chaos.

As for the 120 days, and some interesting facts from Grayfly, always nice to read whatever the context, I do recall a certain "well known high street brand" being used as an example during my Degree....they demanded payment in 3 days, but paid suppliers up to and beyond 30 days..or whenever they felt like it due to the kudos, in their view, of supplying said brand.

Been there as a creditor when self -employed ...the organisation was still trading up to midnight the day before....shut down at about 06.00 I seem to recall, and being one of many sub-contractors never any chance of getting paid. The fleet of wagons to remove the assets arrived about 1 hr after we did and we were there at 07.30.

Thus to the present and it seems that, whilst the real world could see the obvious and were departing from their association, the Gov't duly carried on regardless.....with Grayling being a contender for the "most risible and implausible excuse of the year " award......again.

https://www.theguardian.com/business...rillion-flimsy

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...llapse-cartoon
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Old 18th Jan 2018, 07:22
  #13516 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Gertrude the Wombat View Post
To me excuses for failing to pay mean the client is going down the tubes. so you stop working for them immediately (why the f**k would you want to go on working for nothing???) and bung in the "sue online" form quick before everybody else does.
If you are subcontracted to a construction company like Carillion you will have contracted via the NEC contract, or similar. This has sections on dispute resolution for things like non-payment. The first action when agreement cannot be made is to go to arbitration next and await that judgement. All parties must act on that judgement.

Basically, you signed up to not taking legal action in the first instance of a dispute.

You have to remember that probably 80% 0f the construction industry still operates a culture and behaviour system which was created two hundred years ago in the industrial revolution. ' There's more money to be made by being part of the problem than being part of the solution' Not appropriate for the present day.

I always preferred to work with the 20% who were able to be part of the solution.

That message was growing until the 2008 crash when construction fell off a cliff. Good people left and the industry now has to fast-track graduates and others to positions of responsibility. It really isn't their fault that you can't fast-track years of experience and memories of good practice that were emerging pre-2008. The good practice words will still be in the marketing and tender submissions but the actual delivery of good practice will be missing.
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Old 18th Jan 2018, 07:39
  #13517 (permalink)  
 
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Thirty odd years ago, while working for one the world's largest manufacturers of communications equipment, one of our programme managers found that one of the US's largest provider of telecomms were well overdue with some large payments. They didn't react immediately when pressed for payment (quite a large amount was involved). So the company ended up suing them and they won. And never got another similar contract again!
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Old 18th Jan 2018, 09:54
  #13518 (permalink)  
 
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This is the stuff I can never get my head around

PFI deals 'costing taxpayers billions' - BBC News

Ghost school'

Liverpool City Council is paying more than £4m each year for Parklands High School which stands empty and unused.
The secondary school which boasts sports hall, canteen and science labs was used for only ten years before it was put into special measures by Ofsted, and closed down in 2014. It is now dubbed a "ghost school" by locals.
The school cost an estimated £24 million to build and between now and the end of the contract 2028, will incur a bill of £47 million, which includes interest, debt and facilities management payments.
WHY???? Why close an underperforming school that's costing millions, surely replacing the staff is the route to go, I assume they had to make measures at other schools to take on these kids, and it makes you wonder if that is the case, why was this built in the first place.... the buildings are not at fault, it's the system running it. This is just good money being thrown after bad.
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Old 18th Jan 2018, 10:33
  #13519 (permalink)  
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And now, back to the ever popular farrago known as.... UKIP

We've seen many, and valid, comparisons over time, but, when the Taliban get mentioned by the current ( subject to change without notice, short term contract only ) leader, well it's hard to a joy to behold eh?...chaps.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...d-racist-texts

But, as we know, " I am the light, I am the resurrection " is possibly waiting in the wings to come to the parties, and the UK's, salvation.....

Does make you wonder though, about the course of true love here...dumped only a couple of days ago ( in theory ...cough ! ) and now... back in the emotional fold...should make for a nice Valentines Day then.
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Old 18th Jan 2018, 10:53
  #13520 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by NutLoose View Post
This is the stuff I can never get my head around

WHY???? Why close an underperforming school that's costing millions, surely replacing the staff is the route to go, I assume they had to make measures at other schools to take on these kids, and it makes you wonder if that is the case, why was this built in the first place.... the buildings are not at fault, it's the system running it. This is just good money being thrown after bad.
that was another present from Crash Gordon, any scam to keep Government borrowing off the books.

As to why they dont just change the staff well they probably dont actually need the school as the population of Liverpool has only just started growing again after decades of decline
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