Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > PPRuNe Social > Jet Blast
Reload this Page >

UK politics - Hamsterwheel

Jet Blast Topics that don't fit the other forums. Rules of Engagement apply.

UK politics - Hamsterwheel

Old 14th Sep 2017, 17:27
  #11761 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Hampshire
Age: 72
Posts: 795
Prophead: You don't really have a clue, do you?
I wasn't sure, but had a suspicion this remark mayhave been aimed at me: "It's all well and good the retired complaining that there are no 'jobs for life' anymore". Well, if it was, let's have a look at my record in the "jobs for life" arena. Well, I never had one. A couple of years as a youth working in Liverpool as a shipping clerk. 5 years in the Army in England, Aden and Botswana, followed by 2 years as a dockyard matey in Simon's Town, maintaining radar & radio equipment, followed by 2 years running a maintenance shift at a radio shore station for the S. African Navy. After having had enough of apartheid, I fetched up in Jeddah in charge of maintaining ground radio and nav aids over the western part of Saudi Arabia. 4 years of that was enough and I ended up working for my next employer for 22 years. A record (for me). A rather unstable 22 years though as I worked in somewhere around 20 different countries, from USA to Oman and all points north as far as Scandinavia and Russia. So, I am no "job for life" aficionado. However, I am a realist who lives in the real world so let me tell you about your much vaunted "gig economy". Your great example, Amazon was in the news recently when one of their contractors was found to be withholding drivers' pay. Other agencies used by Amazon had been set delivery targets that ensured they would often end up breaking speed limits. Why do you think Amazon use so many agency drivers, rather than give them a job with regular pay etc? So they can wash their hands of any responsibility for decent conditions for their drivers. And of course to avoid the non-Amazon business of paying N.I. That is a tax and that will not do!
Other delivery firms penalise their self-employed drivers who can not work if they are sick. I have seen the argument on here that this is fair as the company needs to cover the cost of hiring a replacement for the day(s). Tosh! The companies pay a daily rate, regardless of how much that may be. The rate they pay allows the employer to make a profit. So, if a driver is sick, they don't pay the wage for that day and pay the replacement driver a rate that sill allows for profit. And then they actually fine the drivers!
Finally, my lad had a period of working as an agency driver for some of the big name companies here and the way it works is this: Each morning he had to call the agency to be told either to report to DPD, Argos or some other outfit or go back to bed as there is no work at the moment. Whatever he made during the week, he had to pay the agency's fees and the fees for an accountant, nominated by the agency, for handling his tax and N.I. Some weeks, he could make 4 fifths of sod all and there was nothing he could do about it.
Finally, re the comment made by Orac re the Parcel Force pension fund and how this landed a £48B bill on the taxpayer: Untrue. That cost was self inflicted. The government was so desperate to sell Royal Mail they took this charge upon themselves as they knew that, despite the knock down price the company was sold for, nobody was going to buy it with such a huge pension scheme.
KelvinD is offline  
Old 14th Sep 2017, 18:29
  #11762 (permalink)  
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Peripatetic
Posts: 10,388
Finally, re the comment made by Orac re the Parcel Force pension fund and how this landed a £48B bill on the taxpayer: Untrue. That cost was self inflicted. The government was so desperate to sell Royal Mail they took this charge upon themselves as they knew that, despite the knock down price the company was sold for, nobody was going to buy it with such a huge pension scheme.
As I said, a pension scheme with a loss making company tacked on the side. One of the last remnants of the rust belt era.

Even having hived off the older £48B debt the remnant sold off is now becoming insolvent trying to maintain the pensions of the staff left behind. Frankly it would be cheaper to just shut it down and pay them workers the redundancy than face the unplayable pensions they are accruing.
ORAC is offline  
Old 14th Sep 2017, 18:37
  #11763 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Hampshire
Age: 72
Posts: 795
Well, I took up your invitation to read the links and they have changed absolutely nothing in my mind. Amazon come up with a guesstimate hourly rate (if it says between x and y, it is an estimate and subject to all manner of vagaries). They say you will be self employed and have to take care of your taxes etc. From the wording of the advert, I would think the £12 or whatever is going to have to take care of your vehicle expenses.
Hermes don't even specify a wage, conditions etc. I suppose you are supposed to apply for those. The term for that is generally a pig in a poke.
Now go back and read again my comment, based on my son's experience, about how absolutely shite these jobs are in the real world.
KelvinD is offline  
Old 14th Sep 2017, 19:01
  #11764 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: West Wiltshire, UK
Age: 67
Posts: 378
I think that what we are seeing with employment is a form of repeating cycle, running over centuries. The "gig economy" is essentially something that has popped up many times in our history, in different forms. It's not new, just re-badged. The same goes for "jobs for life" as a concept. This principle existed back in medieval times, and again is a concept that has come and gone over the ages.

There are advantages and disadvantages to all and every employment method. There always have been and there always will be. It's human nature, it seems, to game whatever tax or employment laws are put in place. Right now we're seeing those taking advantage of the growing online purchasing boom by gaming the system to lower their operating costs. This is no different, in principle, to the old dockyard labour scheme (before the 1947 Act), that similarly sought to gain an advantage by reducing employment costs to better match work demand.

I've no doubt that things will go around the circuit a few more times before we evolve to a point where we no longer need paid employment.
VP959 is offline  
Old 14th Sep 2017, 19:02
  #11765 (permalink)  
Resident insomniac
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: N54 58 34 W02 01 21
Age: 75
Posts: 1,859
The sister of a neighbour (used to) deliver for Hermes (I say used to because I haven't seen her around for a couple of months).
Her large Korean Ssang Yong 4x4 was always stuffed to the gunwhales with parcels and she seemed to deliver to every other street in the village.
G-CPTN is offline  
Old 14th Sep 2017, 19:18
  #11766 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: On the beach with a cerveza.
Posts: 1,183
Originally Posted by Prophead View Post

I have been contracting for nearly 20 years and would never be a staff member again. That is the same for all the contractors I know in the construction/engineering industry. You are either doing it wrong or in a field with to much supply and not enough demand. For that you can blame the mass migration we are seeing.
To be fair you have to have a certain mindset to do Contracting long term - it doesnt suit those who want all the benefits of permanent job just handed to them on a plate. For those that do 'get it' then they are generally quite happy - in fact its rather funny seeing people decrying contract work on an aviation forum given the way that the industry works,
Jet II is online now  
Old 15th Sep 2017, 06:29
  #11767 (permalink)  
Thought police antagonist
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Where I always have been...firmly in the real world
Posts: 945
Originally Posted by Prophead View Post
Wow, ok first to KnC's post



I have been contracting for nearly 20 years and would never be a staff member again. That is the same for all the contractors I know in the construction/engineering industry. You are either doing it wrong or in a field with to much supply and not enough demand. For that you can blame the mass migration we are seeing.



You are completely blinded by your socialist principles so will never see this as a good thing but the whole point of the gig economy is you do not really have any T&C's and you are in return, under no control by the provider. This is obviously so against your principles you cannot accept that it's the way lots of people want to work.

Now to that Guardian article. Even for that rag it is pure comedy. I can only assume it was written by a junior on work experience and heavily edited by one of the old trots in the office. The arguments against being a self employed courier ranged from not being able to do it in a Nissan Micra, having to know your way around and not being paid for long term sickness. I bet the full time guys are quaking in their boots with these people coming after their jobs.

If you are serious about being self employed in any line of work then you need to do it properly. For a courier that includes getting a van, a GPS and some sickness insurance. It is hardly rocket science is it but thats the reason some people are making a living and some are crying into their morning star.



Again, any serious self employed person has expenses and most are paid out and reimbursed, your not really getting it are you?



The engineers assemble it, many of will be contract and absolutely union free.

Kelvin



No it wasn't at all, it was a general comment aimed at the large number of retired I hear banging on about the whole 'jobs for life' and 'no industry any more'



You are talking about something different. These agencies are the problem not Amazon. What I linked to involves working directly for Amazon at £12 per hour for hours that suit you. No contractors or agencies involved. One of the reasons Amazon are doing this is to stop the dodgy agency practises you mention. Likewise for the Hermes agency so before you tell me I haven't a clue I suggest you actually read the links I posted.
Prophead .....far be from me to say this, but, alas, in your own words " you haven't a clue".

Let's start with Hermes.....I know, the following links were all written by an unpaid intern and duly sub-edited by a flag waving rabid ( insert "ist" of choice here ) to maintain the class war. And, you will note, also refers to the accursed unions !

Union takes legal action against delivery courier Hermes - ITV News

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-37334936

Your admiration for all things Tory is truly commendable and I can only muse if you have attended some form of indoctrination course at some point. Plus, this being JB where keeping up with the current vogue is essential, well for some that is, a couple of mentions as to those nasty immigrants have been dutifully included. The chaps will be suitably impressed of course.

Have you thought of writing a column, or piece, for that nadir of political commentary known as the " Cornsarvatiff Wamman, mwah " at all?

Back to "why all you need to be a courier is....".....in your infinite wisdom, you missed out a few minor details....such as a reliable vehicle, public liability insurance, goods in transit insurance, sector, fuel costs, and the rather useful contracts. We won't worry about profit margins at this point, less you are becoming too confused and "Alexa" is unable to clarify matters for you.

Agencies are, I agree, nothing more than self-serving rip off organisations, hence the reason I dispensed with them, after thoughtfully undercutting their rates and marketing my own capabilities to customers when delivering on their behalf.

Jet 11....true, aviation is reliant on contractors in many areas however, even the most dedicated contractors eventually look for permanent employment.

That, and the fabled "circuit" is no longer the source it was plus the rates are now abysmal. Never part of this myself, thankfully, and my contracting was at a different level. Not exactly the happiest days of my life, but it did lead to permanent employment again.

Last edited by Krystal n chips; 15th Sep 2017 at 07:30.
Krystal n chips is offline  
Old 15th Sep 2017, 08:18
  #11768 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Oxon
Age: 62
Posts: 1,941
He makes several good points here

Osborne accused of 'bitterness and bile' over attacks on May
Seldomfitforpurpose is offline  
Old 15th Sep 2017, 09:56
  #11769 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: No longer in Jurassic Park eating Toblerone....
Posts: 2,655
KnC I disagree that
even the most dedicated contractors eventually look for permanent employment.
I was contracting for 30 years except for 2 years in Australia where that employment model didn't work for Brits but was even then only "staff for the contract duration".

Personally I would rather pickle my eyeballs than be staff in a company who have total control over where I would work and for how much.
LowNSlow is offline  
Old 15th Sep 2017, 10:35
  #11770 (permalink)  
Thought police antagonist
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Where I always have been...firmly in the real world
Posts: 945
Originally Posted by Prophead View Post
KnC and Kelvin you are still talking and comparing the coming gig type way of working to your beloved employment model. I know this is your ideal but shock, horror, it is not everybody else's.

So the Unions are against the whole self employed gig economy are they? Wow, what's your next scoop?

Much of the accusations about hermes are around rates of pay, that is something controlled by supply and demand. My original post was more about the Amazon model and the fact that companies like Hermes are following behind. Cutting out agencies and giving the driver the flexibility to work when and how they want. Posting links to dodgy agencies and complaints from full time staff misses the point entirely.

As for this load of waffle



There is nothing Tory about it. Plenty of Corbyns newly bought young voters are all for the gig economy and will be working as such.



Glad you are finally understanding how self employment works. Now go back and re-read that guardian article you posted with the above in mind.

The gig economy is coming whether you like it or not. Going out on strike and calling for the unions to do something about it will only speed things up so carry on.
Prophead .......maybe your slip rings may have become impregnated with "Skydrol "....


Your enthusiasm for the gig economy suggests you would have been a willing participant in the South Sea Bubble, had you been around at the time.

Thus, presumably if this gig economy is the panacea to employment trials and tribulations, it seems strange does it not that many participants are now calling for various entitlements in their T's and C's.....or are they simply moaning because they haven't got the resolve to adapt to this supah new working model.

You do though, have an amazing forte for contradiction.....

" As would every contractor I know. There are plenty that have moved the other way though and the number continues to grow

Now why would people, as you thoughtfully say above, wish to go back to permanent employment rather than contracting if it was so lucrative and beneficial ?

No doubt these links were also written by work experience people, or even some year 10 kids with no knowledge of working life.....

https://worksmart.org.uk/news/what%E...ng-gig-economy

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...ent-law-labour

LownSlow.....fair comment as contracting, which sector if you don't me asking please ?, does suit some people I freely admit.

That said, I suppose I should have said, that, for engineers it's very much a young mans game with the hours they can work, say on a "C" or "D" check and you really don't want to be doing that as you get older.

Last edited by Krystal n chips; 15th Sep 2017 at 10:45.
Krystal n chips is offline  
Old 15th Sep 2017, 11:11
  #11771 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Cambridge, England, EU
Posts: 3,435
Originally Posted by Prophead View Post
As would every contractor I know. There are plenty that have moved the other way though and the number continues to grow.
Yes well, there was a period a few years ago when contract work was hard to find, and my wife said she's stop paying for my flying if I didn't take a proper job. So there are reasons for moving both ways.
Gertrude the Wombat is offline  
Old 15th Sep 2017, 11:40
  #11772 (permalink)  
Thought police antagonist
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Where I always have been...firmly in the real world
Posts: 945
Originally Posted by Prophead View Post
My god Krystal, do you ever stop to consider there is a whole world out there that doesn't think they way you do and are not reliant on everyone else to provide for them.

I see you have been googling the gig economy but if you would only turn your Komrade filter off you might actually find some information that doesn't have a socialist bias. You keep talking about lack of pensions and sick pay etc. as being the downside.

People will not expect any of that to be handed to them by an employer. Mainly because they will have many clients and actually want to be in control of things like this themselves. This change in industry will bring about new, more suitable alternatives based on the individual and new opportunities that can be chosen by the end user.

You posted this earlier



Which I showed you was clearly wrong, you do not understand what is coming and your bias will not let you believe that it will benefit those who choose to work that way.



All that guardian twaddle has addled your brain. I said nothing of the sort and if you read it again with the red goggles off you may see that I was saying I know plenty of people that have moved from employed to self employed work.
Can we await the imminent announcement of a new planet I wonder ?

Quite how everybody will be a participant and have so many clients, who knows, this may lead to something called, lets think, forming a company perhaps ? in the gig economy remains a mystery, but, doubtless your mystic balls will reveal all.

This from that well known socialist media source may suggest your own search powers are "somewhat myopic ".....


https://www.ft.com/content/749cb87e-...7-15af748b60d0
Krystal n chips is offline  
Old 15th Sep 2017, 11:42
  #11773 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Oxon
Age: 62
Posts: 1,941
Teacher tells pupils to ignore classmate because his dad was a Conservative MP

Teacher 'told class to ignore Conservative MP's son' during election campaign

hope the bloody twonk is out on his/her ear!
Seldomfitforpurpose is offline  
Old 15th Sep 2017, 12:17
  #11774 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Clarty Waters, UK
Age: 54
Posts: 911
Originally Posted by Prophead View Post
I give up, you are just never going to get it.
Probably a wise move.

The way we work is changing, and the Left hate it because it’s changing in ways they can’t control.

I’ll never understand why people who regard themselves as “progressive” want to turn the clock back 40 years when it comes to industrial relations.
Andy_S is offline  
Old 15th Sep 2017, 12:50
  #11775 (permalink)  
Thought police antagonist
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Where I always have been...firmly in the real world
Posts: 945
Originally Posted by Prophead View Post
I give up, you are just never going to get it. carry on googling and cherry picking those articles to support your outdated way of thinking.

Just keep posting links about people who are obviously not intelligent enough to manage themselves.

I can't be a self employed taxi driver as I don't know when to clock off and #i get too tired.

I can't be a courier because I don't know my way around town.



These are the people that will never be able to be properly self employed and I never suggested everyone will want to or have the aptitude able to work that way.

It is however going to grow and move into all manner of industries. The unions and I suspect yourself know this fully well.
Well in the interest of that oft promoted, but invariably eschewed when challenged term "debate " on here, I'm hardly likely to source links that support your vision of the future, irrespective of how glaringly impractical this vision may be....now am I.

And my grasp of reality may have more to do, and I suspect I may not be alone here across the political spectrum, in seeking terms and conditions for employment, at least until I retired earlier this year, which may be beneficial to myself. I know, typical selfish socialist thinking here although strangely enough, this thinking tends to cross political lines......can't think why.

As for posting links about "people who are obviously not intelligent enough to manage themselves " ( and I'm sure the commentators in the articles concerned would be interested to learn they lack your intelligence level ) I have no recollection of posting links to the military in this respect.
Krystal n chips is offline  
Old 15th Sep 2017, 13:00
  #11776 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Richard Burtonville, South Wales.
Posts: 1,863
I’ll never understand why people who regard themselves as “progressive” want to turn the clock back 40 years when it comes to industrial relations
That bit's easy- control, power, influence. Take your pick.

CG
charliegolf is offline  
Old 15th Sep 2017, 13:05
  #11777 (permalink)  
Thought police antagonist
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Where I always have been...firmly in the real world
Posts: 945
Originally Posted by charliegolf View Post
That bit's easy- control, power, influence. Take your pick.

CG
Thanks for that CG...missed that little gem from Prophead.....possibly because I was convulsed with laughter at his visionary statements.

Just like the Tories are doing now with legislation then..
Krystal n chips is offline  
Old 15th Sep 2017, 13:46
  #11778 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: On the beach with a cerveza.
Posts: 1,183
Originally Posted by Krystal n chips View Post

Jet 11....true, aviation is reliant on contractors in many areas however, even the most dedicated contractors eventually look for permanent employment.

That, and the fabled "circuit" is no longer the source it was plus the rates are now abysmal. Never part of this myself, thankfully, and my contracting was at a different level. Not exactly the happiest days of my life, but it did lead to permanent employment again.
Really - I have found that people move seamlessly between both sectors, but the one point that is always true is that people start in permanent employment and then move on to contracting. I would say that 70% of the colleagues that I have worked with over the years on contracts never go back to permanent employment - they prefer the flexibility and better rewards of contracting.

But as I said, it takes a certain mindset and many simply dont have that - they want the security blanket of a permanent job, unions, etc. etc.. That doesnt mean that one system is better or worse than the other - its just different and it suits different people.
Jet II is online now  
Old 15th Sep 2017, 14:49
  #11779 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Hampshire
Age: 72
Posts: 795
I think a lot of the differences on here have one common issue. There is contracting and there is contracting. I have had the opportunities in the past to turn to contracting where the cash rewards were greater than I was earning in regular employment but for various reasons I didn't take them up. On the other hand, one of my past employers had a couple of contractors in my department, making money hand over fist, for 3 years! The awkward squad (mainly me) began asking the company why they couldn't figure out that, if we are paying contractor's rates over a period of 3 years or so, we actually had a requirement for 2 new employees. The rates being paid to the contractors were attractive and lucrative enough to cover their overheads, insurances, sickness etc. Contracts were always for an extended period, agreed beforehand.
The other sort of contracting, which is what this argument focuses on, involves people on minimum wages who can not put money aside for the overheads. Every little bump in the road can become a catastrophe. You often don't know if you are working today, until you have made that early morning phone call. And, with a zero hours contract, if the early morning call results in no work today, you were not free to offer yourself for hire to others. (Fortunately, this was outlawed in 2015).
Incidentally, given that this on an aviation forum, can anyone tell me how many aircraft drivers, employed by airlines, are self-employed contractors vs full time employees (Ryanair excepted!)
KelvinD is offline  
Old 15th Sep 2017, 15:02
  #11780 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: On the beach with a cerveza.
Posts: 1,183
Originally Posted by KelvinD View Post
And, with a zero hours contract, if the early morning call results in no work today, you were not free to offer yourself for hire to others. (Fortunately, this was outlawed in 2015).
As you say, exclusivity was outlawed years ago so what is the relevance today?
Jet II is online now  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.