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UK politics - Hamsterwheel

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UK politics - Hamsterwheel

Old 24th Apr 2010, 15:05
  #261 (permalink)  
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" a government that has consistantly lied, lied, decieved, wasted public money, driven the country to war over false premise, diluted and subverted democracy, creation of deficit, debt and rampant mis-management, then they are voting for the dilution of democracy and accountability and public mis-management"

That seems to summate the last time the Conservatives were in power rather well actually.

Is there any discernible difference?.....no, just a different hue. However, if you think things are bad now...take a deep breath and watch Thatchers children come out to play if, big if I know, they get into power.

Quite disturbing really when you make comparisons as to which party will abuse the power the most when in office....and thus the choice facing the voters ( that's the little plebs who don't count except when we want their votes for any...(and I love this term c/o Martina Hyde in Fridays Guardian..) ..spin arseoisie....reading this )
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Old 24th Apr 2010, 15:26
  #262 (permalink)  
 
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Bruce,

I can think for myself, and in general I do pretty well.

I do not subscribe to your black and white point of view, nor do I believe that another New Labour term is justified, unfortunately the Tories supported New Labour in taking us to war based on a pack of lies and so far their campaign has been "vote for us we're not Gordon". After reading their manifesto I can't bring myself to vote for the Conservatives, and their candidate in my constituency couldn't answer some of my questions. The Labour muppet was parachuted in as they regard it as a safe seat - but recent opinion polls here seem to indicate it is no longer so.

So it is either the Lib-Dems or a single issue party.

UKIP are laughable and the BNP are risible.

As far as I can see so far Bruce, I have yet to insult you but you have insulted me a number of times. So play the ball not the player.
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Old 24th Apr 2010, 19:27
  #263 (permalink)  
 
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So it is either the Lib-Dems or a single issue party.
And the lib-dems policies are as fantasy land as labour's. nick clegg is two faced bullshitter, that was prepared to sell out democracy before his 15 minutes of fame.

As far as I can see so far Bruce, I have yet to insult you

absolute tosh and bollocks, you kicked off the exchange with a light hearted response to blacksheep's anecdote of this:

There's a socialist in our office who avers that he has been more prosperous under the Gormless one than he was under Thatcher. That's the unfortunate illusion.
the light hearted response being:

One would hope that, as appropriate, his car has been set fire to in the car park and steaming mersey trout left on his desk.
was met with, by you....

You must be a supporter of the caring Conservative party then? Is it any wonder they are known as nasty party?
now if you pull your head out of your ass you might have got the gentle jibe..

Can't hear the pop of your head coming out of your ass, so..

..the comment was not a recommendation of violence, but a jibe toward the rising levels of criminality and anti-social behaviour that has 'blossomed' under New Labour, which they fail to deal with by actually giving custodial sentences worth anything..

do you get the joke now ?


*you* responded to tongue in cheek joke with a personal comment directed at me
Bruce,

I can think for myself,
Obviously, you can't, as you repeat my own quote back to me..
.. to reiterate:

You must be a supporter of the caring Conservative party then? Is it any wonder they are known as nasty party?
so your citation of:
I have yet to insult you but you have insulted me a number of times.
doesn't wash..

... you played me, not the ball (the subject matter)

so don't quote back to me my suggestion of playing the ball not the player.

PLAY THE BALL, NOT THE PLAYER.
i may not, agree with the politics of the next man or his views, but to that i respect and defend his right to his views, formed as they may be through fact and not government led lies, spin and propaganda by and administration that seeks to destroy that very single facet of democracy and freedom....

... without that, we may as well vote in robert mugabe as our next leader..

...heck New Labour has borrowed his fiscal policies and instilled "Mugabeconomics" as their economic principles to reduce our debt by printing money (QE) and buying back its own debt with its own printed money.


* addendum: As a side note, being a forum, over the internet, we do of course lose the subtlety of voice intonation and reference, as such, points of tongue in cheek humour can be lost and mis-interpreted.

if i have mis interpreted your response as you have with mine, then humbly, I'll get the next round in and we can happily continue as friends.

Last edited by Bruce Wayne; 24th Apr 2010 at 19:49.
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Old 24th Apr 2010, 19:52
  #264 (permalink)  
 
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Right. I'm back after a 3 day thread ban.

No idea what I did to upset the mods. Any clues?

What did I miss?
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Old 24th Apr 2010, 20:05
  #265 (permalink)  
 
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That seems to summate the last time the Conservatives were in power rather well actually.

Is there any discernible difference?.....no, just a different hue. However, if you think things are bad now...take a deep breath and watch Thatchers children come out to play if, big if I know, they get into power.
a discernable difference is the huge amount of debt new labour has manage to create.. that is, as i write this, 902,992,375,450 of your UK tax pounds..

... no, its now 902,992,581,374..

... no, its now 902,992,732,331

oh hell go here.. UK National Debt Clock ? No-Nonsense Guide to Britain's Debt Crisis


that is a debt that you, ME and every taxpayer is picking up the bill for..

so what do we have to show for that..

a well funded and equipped military?

Nope..

a well funded equipped and staffed NHS

Nope.

maybe a well funded public transport infrastructure that is cheap to use.

Hell no..

how about an education system with places at good schools to spare

Nope, not that either..

well we must have plenty of prisons and a great judical system

Nope, criminals given non custodial sentances due lack of space

what does new labour actually have to show for the debt ?

NOTHING..

so there is a discernable difference there.

there is also a discernable difference here, which i repost..

The public turfed out the last Tory government because of sleaziness; the "Cash for Questions" row and the failure of some back-bench Tory MPs to declare minor gifts or sources of income was too much for the public to stomach and they opted for a Labour government, ignoring Labour's track record of sleaze in local government.

Eight years on, the Tories' brand of sleaze looks pretty weedy compared to the wholesale corruption practised by the likes of Mandelson, Robinson, Irvine, Vaz, Byers, Jo Moore, Milburn, Hughes, Paul Corrigan, and Blair himself!


That's the big difference - whereas under the Tories there were undeniably some individual back-bench MPs with dodgy agendas of their own, the Labour government is rotten to the core - the cabinet itself;

The Prime Minister himself. Tony Blair was caught red-handed lying to the House of Commons about the 1m contribution Labour accepted from the motor racing industry. It was a defining moment and would easily have been the end of a less slimy politician's career.

A Different Kind of Sleaze

In the old days sleaze was about politicians succumbing to the material temptations placed before them, such as expense accounts and foreign travel, or it involved the personal sexual morality or marital fidelity of politicians. There was little or no direct impact on the general public, but the press and opposition politicians worked themselves into a frenzy about it.

New Labour's New Sleaze works the other way round. It is all about the perversion of democratic government; matters of great importance to the public being cooked up behind closed doors, justified by massaged figures, semi-leaked documents and news management.
Hmm, Both the PM Tony Blair and then Chancellor Gordon Brown were both interviewed by the Serious Farce Office over the Cash for Peerages scandal.

Cash for questions looks positively tame now..

You can choose to shrug off the ineptitude, mis-management, deceit and lies upon lies of the past 13 years and say that's acceptable to you, or you can choose to stand up and say, no, that is NOT acceptable.

That's what democracy is, yet New Labour have signed and continue to pull our democracy out from underneath us.
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Old 24th Apr 2010, 20:10
  #266 (permalink)  
 
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the comment was not a recommendation of violence, but a jibe toward the rising levels of criminality and anti-social behaviour that has 'blossomed' under New Labour, which they fail to deal with by actually giving custodial sentences worth anything..

do you get the joke now ?
Well, I am afraid to say that is a rather construed argument, but if that is what you intended then I will apologise for not understanding your way of thinking, however bizarre and twisted it may be.

However, I will hold it against you for the varying levels of insult directed at me.

As yet I have to see anything from the three main parties that give me any comfort whatsoever. A hung parliament is maybe the best thing this country can expect and voting reform is going to be the main issue in the coming months and years.

The tories support for the Iraq war and their views on the 3rd runway at LHR do not sit well with me and they dont seem to be offering that much different from nu labour, nu labour are worthless, lib-dems are vague on too many policies (but their candidate appears to be the best of a bad bunch for our constituency), UKIP just don't make any sense and the BNP are wild eyed loons.

The single issue candidate? Well, what can you say? A very earnest chap who will probably do as much as he can but...

So, Bruce, if you would like to get your own head out of your own arsehole, get to the bar and make mine a pint of IPA.
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Old 24th Apr 2010, 20:47
  #267 (permalink)  
 
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Pint of IPA it is then..

The tories support for the Iraq war and their views on the 3rd runway at LHR do not sit well with me and they dont seem to be offering that much different from nu labour, nu labour are worthless, lib-dems are vague on too many policies (but their candidate appears to be the best of a bad bunch for our constituency), UKIP just don't make any sense and the BNP are wild eyed loons.
The tories support for the military intervention in Iraq, was based, dont forget on falsified data by New Labour...

Remember Dr David Kelly and that whole matter..

New Labour are less than worthless, they are destructive and damaging to the integrity of the country economically, democratically, socially etc.

Lib Dems..

Having read through their manifesto, it simply doesnt weigh up, it doesnt actually deliver anything firm and also they include policies that will actually damage the aviation industry in this country further...

Lib dems economics..



the conservatives, have actually addressed subject matters themselves instead of some wishy washy claptrap using the words fair and fairness as the ploy.

Some may not ever be acheived but its the direction we set off in.

Yes we may have turbulence and sstorms to divert around, but its a sure plan that will end up in CFIT or a presumption of clear sunny skies either..

Conservatives manifesto points:
01 Invitation to Join the Government of Britain
02 Contents
03 Foreword
04 Chapter 1_Change the Economy_Introduction
05 Benchmarks for Britain
06 Ensure macroeconomic stability
07 Create a more balance economy
08 Get Britain working again
09 Encourage enterprise
10 Ensure the whole country shares in rising prosperity
11 Reform public services to deliver better value for money
12 Create a safer banking system that serves the needs of the economy
13 Build a greener economy
14 Chapter 2_Change Society_Introduction
15 Build the Big Society
16 Make Britain the most family friendly country in Europe
17 Back the NHS
18 Raise standards in schools
19 Fight back against crime
20 Chapter 3_Change Politics_Introduction
21 Make politics more accountable
22 Make politics more transparent
23 Make politics more local
24 Restore our civil liberties
25 Strengthen the union
26 Chapter 4_Protect the environment_Introduction
27 Combat climate change
28 Conserve and enhance the natural environment
29 Chapter 5_Promote our national interest_Introduction
30 Defend our security
31 A liberal Conservative foreign policy
32 An open and democratic Europe
33 One World Conservatism
I dont concur with the view of a hung parliament. The implication of the lib dems supporting brown, in the even the tories dont have the required lead margin is abhorrant to democracy.

A hung parliament / coalition government will be a disaster for this country and a disatser we can ill afford.

Belgium's coalition government collapsed for the second time in a little more than a year when a key party withdrew its support and Prime Minister Yves Leterme tendered his resignation.

It was not immediately clear whether Belgium's King Albert will accept Prime Minister Yves Leterme's resignation, following the collapse of his five-month-old coalition government. But it seems like an old story.

Mr. Leterme also resigned as prime minister in late 2008 over a banking scandal. He returned to power last November when former Prime Minister Herman van Rompuy was tapped to become the first, full-time head of the European Union.

[...]

A key coalition member, the Flemish liberal Open VLD Party, pulled out of the government, frustrated over the failure to resolve the dispute.

The move drew an angry reaction from other members of the coalition. Speaking on Belgium television, Socialist Party member Laurette Onkelinx called Open VLD crazy.

Onkelinx said Belgium has terrible political and economic problems.
terrible political and economic problems ? that sound familiar!

We need decisive action, not any more interventions from the New Labour ship of lunatics and certainly not months if not years of non policies and politiking for power and control by a coalition government.

We've suffered 'Mugabeconomics' and ZANU-PF style government, what we dont need is the farce similar to that of Mugabe's coalition government.

To quote 'Il Brutto' (Tuco) in the Good the Bad and the Ugly, "When you gotta shoot, shoot. Don't Talk!"

IOW, we need to deal with the problems now. Not have a coalition government pontificate and jostle for position for months on end and let the problems continue to fester and suppurate.

Last edited by Bruce Wayne; 24th Apr 2010 at 20:59.
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Old 24th Apr 2010, 20:56
  #268 (permalink)  
 
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Bruce old fruit.


that is a debt that you, ME and every taxpayer is picking up the bill for..

so what do we have to show for that..

a well funded and equipped military?

Nope..

a well funded equipped and staffed NHS

Nope.

maybe a well funded public transport infrastructure that is cheap to use.

Hell no..

how about an education system with places at good schools to spare

Nope, not that either..

well we must have plenty of prisons and a great judical system

Nope, criminals given non custodial sentances due lack of space

what does new labour actually have to show for the debt ?

I have to say, again, that the NHS (in my particular part of the world) is a world away from the mess we had in 96.
Believe me, I know. A broken arm rebuilt thankyou one and all at Derby Royal Infirmary.
A child born and nurtured with the assistance and care of the Mid Cheshire Hospitals Foundations Trust.
Several very close family members treated in short order, compared to the uncertainty of years ago when there would be a six month wait to see a consultant.

As for education, we were spoilt for choice with the Primary schools 'ere abouts. We got our little 'un into our first choice school without any fuss even when moving house five months before she was due start and we switched pre schools without the need to write to the Daily Express!!!!


As for the transport system. Well perhaps if someone hadn't sold it off to the lowest bidder there would be some scope for a radical change in the infrastructure.

Don't ask me about the military or the clink. There are too many here with first hand experience of both for me to comment.

The point I'm trying to make is that on first hand experience, I'm doing alright Jack.

But i'm still not voting Labour.
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Old 24th Apr 2010, 21:05
  #269 (permalink)  
 
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I dont concur with the view of a hung parliament. The implication of the lib dems supporting brown, in the even the tories dont have the required lead margin is abhorrant to democracy.
Why?

Assuming the Conservatives get 35% of the vote and Labour/Lib-Dems get 55% of the vote between them, then democratically speaking..........
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Old 24th Apr 2010, 21:07
  #270 (permalink)  
 
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Bruce,

I think you have made your point about Nu Labour, and you will not get any argument from me about their lack of capability to be returned to government.

The tories had enough chance to challenge Blair on his laughable 45 minute claims, but yet didn't. David Cameron had the opportunity to score against an open goal in the first leaders debate but he didn't. Having read the manifesto of the conservatives and not getting any meaningful answers from my candidate, they will not be getting my vote.

I have a frightening vision of Nick Clegg and Vince Cable on the steps of No 10 like rabbits caught in the headlights saying "what the f**k do we do now?"
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Old 24th Apr 2010, 21:28
  #271 (permalink)  
 
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welcome back form the Sin Bin TURIN..

In respect of the NHS, my wife works in the cardiology unit in an NHS hospital.

Ther are a lot of issues that have been stored up by New Labour that will impact the NHS in the following years. Simply wrong and ill thought through decisions that WILL have an impact towards the availability of trained medical staff over the coming years.

Health secretary Andy Burnham was today ambushed by an angry hospital worker who accused him of breaking Labour promises to slash the number of bureaucrats in the NHS.

Margaret Roberts, who works at Trafford Hospital, castigated Mr Burnham for standing by while chief executives in the NHS enjoyed huge pay rises last year - double that of nurses.

Speaking at a conference of the Unison union in Brighton, she told him that staff shortages across the NHS were having a devastating effect on services - with doctors and nurses 'firefighting' to ensure safe care can be assured.

She was cheered and clapped by hundreds of angry delegates, while a rattled Mr Burnham was jeered as he defended the number of managers and refused to guarantee that no doctors and nurses would lose their jobs after the election.

But he did admit it was unfair that NHS bosses were taking home so much money.

The issue has risen to the top of the agenda after it emerged last month that the number of NHS managers has soared six times quicker than the number of nurses. There are now 44,000 managers - almost double the number of midwives.
Unfortunately, that is fact born out by the unit my wife works in, i will not go into detail here, but needless to say the vast majority of medical staff, like my wife are dismayed at the level of ineptitude of New Labour policy and disgusted at how certain issues are deferred, basically to be dealt with by another government.

My wife was rather annoyed in that they have another new manager to her unit, who essentially has nothing to do, as her tasks are already covereed by two other managers, has three desks in office, all new, but wants to replace one and has out of the department budget, yet the crash trolley has no space for the meds so they rattle around on top in a box, mixed.

they dont have the budget to replace the crash trolley but they have the budget for another unneccessary manager with no medical training.

her new desk to replace the new desk , she didnt want... more expensive than a new crash cart.

education wise..

a teacher at my nephew & nice's school, cant get her kids into a school locally (full up, no places) so the teachers kids go to a school 10 miles away, the younger of the two started shool last year, the school her brother is at, no more places, so has to go to school 8 miles away in the other direction, so the teacher has to drive 36 miles every day to drop her kids off at school before getting to work herself..

transport. cost of bus transfer from nice aeroport to a location we have an apartment at (ski location) 1 euro per person, each way.. a distance of 90 clicks each way..

cost of public transport to london zone 1 outside of rush hour 16 pounds one way distance a shade under 60 clicks..

New Labour has had ample opportunity to deal with the problems of public transport, heck railtrack went Tango Uniform in 2002. but public transport and contract awards have been mired in corruption under New Labour..


I'm doing alright Jack.
glad to hear it, many are not and well, we could be doing a lot better.. then there's that debt thing to deal with too.

BTW harriet harman let slip last week a little possibility of a 60% tax band under another New Labour term.

i would rather wipe my arse with my ballot paper than vote for New Labour.
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Old 24th Apr 2010, 21:34
  #272 (permalink)  
 
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Assuming the Conservatives get 35% of the vote and Labour/Lib-Dems get 55%
Well, say if the vote goes something like this..

Tories 35%
Lib Dems 30%
New Labour 25%
balance to minor parties and no shows at the ballot box

why the heck should we end up with brown as a defacto PM after gaining 25% of the vote due to back room handshake between the lib dems and labour.

as far as i am concerned that is a sell out to democracy.
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Old 24th Apr 2010, 21:43
  #273 (permalink)  
 
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why the heck should we end up with brown as a defacto PM after gaining 25% of the vote due to back room handshake between the lib dems and labour.
Is it because that is the way the current system works?

Until it changes (PR anyone?) we risk that every 5 years.
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Old 24th Apr 2010, 21:43
  #274 (permalink)  
 
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The tories had enough chance to challenge Blair on his laughable 45 minute claims, but yet didn't. David Cameron had the opportunity to score against an open goal in the first leaders debate but he didn't. Having read the manifesto of the conservatives and not getting any meaningful answers from my candidate, they will not be getting my vote.
And THAT is my biggest bone of contention toward the tories. New Labour have done to this country many times over things that less has caused revolution and downfall of governments.

Cameron has been too soft on Tony Blair and Gormless Brown. And sincerely that is why Cameron doesnt have the point lead he should have.

I have a frightening vision of Nick Clegg and Vince Cable on the steps of No 10 like rabbits caught in the headlights saying "what the f**k do we do now?"
yup and then finding out that the wishy washy policies are worthless. But then Nick Clegg is a Europhile anyways so the pound will go and we'll have the euro to deal with and monetary policy dictated from the EU masters.

At which point then do we actually need a UK government then ?

So, might as well sh*t can democracy in the UK and have the balance of the EU populace make decisions for us to foot the bill for !

It seems we all come to the same point.. The country is a mess !

Further to that, we all perhaps understand the concept that a hung parliament would give the opportunity for the best policies of each party to be put into play.

However, the converse to that is that is also gives the same opportunity for the worst policies of each party to come into play.

(which is actually more likely as the politiking will result in the worst of each parties policies to be put forward in an attempt to weaken the position of that party and clear the way for greater control by an opposition party.. that's the real fear of a hung parliament !).
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Old 24th Apr 2010, 21:54
  #275 (permalink)  
 
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TURIN,

I agree..

The Conservative Party | Policy | Where we stand | Cleaning Up Politics

Cleaning Up Politics

Britain's political system is in crisis. The expenses scandal and Labour's reliance on spin have left the public feeling deeply disillusioned about the way the country is run. An overwhelming majority of the public feel they have little or no influence over the way the country is run.

Conservatives took the lead on sorting out the mess of MPs' expenses by pushing for maximum transparency. Now we need a deep clean of the political system in Westminster to root out sleaze and dispel suspicion.
We have insisted that MPs' expenses are published online, and support the implementation of the independent proposals to clean up the House of Commons. We will:
  • Strengthen Parliament so that it acts as a proper check on the power of ministers;
  • Reduce the number of MPs by 10 per cent as part of a wider series of reforms to cut the cost of politics;
  • Ensure each vote has equal value by reducing the wide discrepancies between constituency electorate sizes;
  • Restore the integrity of the ballot and give voters the right to kick out MPs guilty of wrongdoing;
  • Introduce new rules on lobbying and tougher restrictions on ex-Ministers;
  • Seek an agreed long-term settlement on Party funding, including an across-the-board cap on donations as part of a comprehensive package of reform. This will mark the end of the big donor era and the sleaze it has sometimes entailed;
  • Work to secure a consensus for a substantially elected House of Lords; and
  • Address the West Lothian Question by ensuring that legislation on devolved issues that only affects England, or England and Wales, can only be passed with the consent of MPs from England, and where applicable Wales.
Real change cannot just alter the balance of power between political elites. Even more radical reform is needed to enable people to participate meaningfully in the political process.

So we will enable members of the public to veto excessive council tax rises, demand local referendums in their communities and debates in Parliament, and allow citizens to table legislation in the House of Commons.
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Old 25th Apr 2010, 06:14
  #276 (permalink)  
 
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Old 25th Apr 2010, 08:01
  #277 (permalink)  
 
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a well funded equipped and staffed NHS
The reality is that the NHS is well funded and staffed. It's just a crying shame that a large proportion of these resources are wasted by the misdirection of so much of the cash and talent.
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Old 25th Apr 2010, 08:22
  #278 (permalink)  
 
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My wife was rather annoyed in that they have another new manager to her unit, who essentially has nothing to do, as her tasks are already covereed by two other managers, has three desks in office, all new, but wants to replace one and has out of the department budget, yet the crash trolley has no space for the meds so they rattle around on top in a box, mixed.

they dont have the budget to replace the crash trolley but they have the budget for another unneccessary manager with no medical training.

her new desk to replace the new desk , she didnt want... more expensive than a new crash cart.
sitigeltfel

that's what i was trying to illustrate above
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Old 25th Apr 2010, 08:28
  #279 (permalink)  
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on the other side of the coin

Turin may be doing OK out of the NHS and good luck to you and your family, sir.

My family so far this year, OTOH.

Daughter has an op on her back, they set up a drain to remove fluids, except they set it up incorrectly and it acts as a vacuum drawing blood out. This led to an extra day in intensive care and 2 blood transfusions to sort it out- but only after we'd raised concerns over the blood loss.

Wife goes in to get her thumb checked out. x-rayed and told 'its a bruise'. 6 days later they phone her to say that it IS broken and they need her back in next week to sort it out
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Old 25th Apr 2010, 10:35
  #280 (permalink)  
 
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She's Bl**dy lucky!
I broke my thumb and they told me there was nothing
they could do. "It will heal in time, try not to use it too much"
were the exact words. It's fine now. If a little distorted.
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