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Another Tony Martin

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Another Tony Martin

Old 24th Dec 2009, 12:01
  #81 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Ireland
Posts: 627
For those of us who don't have criminal inclinations therefore we are, with some justification, expected to use restraint and common sense when confronted with such situations.
That attitude gives a carte blanche to criminals. If everyone felt like you there would be no danger and few consequences to any criminal who decided to attack you or your family.

In fact, give me your address. I need money and it seems like you're an easy touch. I warn you though, I'm a bit of sadist. So I'll be carrying a knife and some rope to tie you up and threaten you and your family. I may even beat you around the head and torture some of your family.

If you attempt to detain me as I leave. I will kill you but as ever I rely on your common sense and restraint to give me a clean getaway.

Thank you.
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Old 24th Dec 2009, 12:14
  #82 (permalink)  

Hmmmyeah
 
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It's surely pretty simple. Why don't some people get it? Why does it give carte blanche?

If you break into to my house, corsair, you get beaten until you're subdued, at whatever stage that may be. If it takes me rendering you unconscious, so be it. The law allows me to do that. Once you're lying prone and motionless in a heap on the ground, I will not continue to club you. The law does not allow me to do that. Instead, I will hand the matter over to the police.

Please explain to me how my common sense and restraint in applying the lawful actions above will have allowed you a clean getaway.

As I see it, you've been beaten unconscious and nicked. Or is that not so?
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Old 24th Dec 2009, 23:03
  #83 (permalink)  
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"Subsequently pursueing the offender(s) once the threat has receded and then acting in the manner these two did puts you in the same category as the criminal".
Absolute rubbish. The criminal CHOSE to go into the victim's house to commit a crime of the most vile order. The homeowner would not have assaulted anyone had he not been put into that situation which was not of his making.

Anyone who puts a career violent aggrevated burglar into the same category as a victim such a heinous crime who, in the heat of the moment over-reacts must, respectfully, have a screw loose.

I will be thinking of the Hussain brothers as I tuck into my Christmas dinner later today.
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Old 25th Dec 2009, 01:52
  #84 (permalink)  
 
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Once you're lying prone and motionless in a heap on the ground, I will not continue to club you. The law does not allow me to do that. Instead, I will hand the matter over to the police.
It's simple, you have humiliated me, you have terrified me, you have threatened me, more you have threatened the people in my life for whom I would gladly die. I am angry. I am angry in a way that's primeval. I want to kill you for what you've done to me and my family.

I'm not sure why you think that's not normal. I have children but even before I had children. I had a Mother and sisters and nieces and nephews. I am angry beyond any reasonable limits. I don't care or think about the law or the police or anything like that. You have place a knife to the throat of one of my children. You have threatened my child. From what I've seen the only reason you didn't kill my child was that you were interrupted when I escaped and chased you.

Tell me why you don't deserve to die, right now, right at this moment?

The law? What has that go to do with it?

Why do you think you can be reasonable and give consideration to the law when faced with the horror Mr Hussain faced.

Are you human or a robot?
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Old 25th Dec 2009, 07:06
  #85 (permalink)  
419
 
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It's simple, you have humiliated me, you have terrified me, you have threatened me, more you have threatened the people in my life for whom I would gladly die.
To follow on from Corsair's post.

"and if you get arrested, the CPS will possibly prosecute you (which judging by your past history of 50 previous convictions, will have no effect on curbing your criminal activities), and I will be living in fear waiting for the day on which you again visit my house to terrorise and possibly kill one of my children in a revenge attack"

It's obvious from the number of convictions already accumulated by the scum concerned (and I wonder how many offences he has never been caught for or charged with) that they have no fear of the legal process in the UK.
I bet he will now think twice (if able to think at all), before deciding to pick on "easy" targets.


Syllogism,
It would appear that at one time you did agree that the system couldn't be relied on to protect innocent parties and that "draconian" measures were needed.

http://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/1932...ml#post2137835

How can the rising tide of violent crime be turned when the penalties handed out by the system are so relatively lenient in relation to the seriousness of the crimes committed and lack real deterrent impact?
It can't
. It's become a self fuelling cycle of the publics growing fear lending more strength to those that see fit to do wrong to others. Society, in the main, has lost its ability, its sense of power to be able to self police. The employment of draconian measures, whilst not something I'm particularly an advocate of, would seem to be the only way to return that power to the public and begin to redress the balance. Reliance on the police alone can never work, there simply aren't and never can be enough of them for doing so to be feasible, and those that there are have their hands tied more and more by the shifting perception of what constitutes 'serious crime' as the previous notion is superceded by new lows.

How can anyone really feel safe when the system seems to protect the aggressor in most cases, and certainly rarely seems to actively defend the victim who won't lie down?
They can't.
I'm far from one to feel intimidated easily but suddenly presented with a violent confrontation should I really need to consider my standing in law before taking whatever action is necessary to protect my interests as the innocent party. I feel not but having once reacted to a situation (in which I was threatened with something much less dramatic but potentially far more deadly than a knife) instinctively in a way that allowed me to escape it with absolute certainty, getting home and once the adrenaline had worn off wondering exactly what sort of damage I may have done, then not felt able to report the incident for fear of accusations of use of excessive force and then spending the next month jumping at the sound of a knock at the door, I know that it's not a feeling I'd wish to experience again and I fear that as a result of it I may not react in a way that yields the best outcome for me, personally, again. I won't live in fear, it's not in my nature, I'm one of those fools who'll step in but my willingness to do so is tempered by my memories of how doing so can place you in a no-mans land.

Last edited by 419; 25th Dec 2009 at 07:40.
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Old 25th Dec 2009, 09:57
  #86 (permalink)  
 
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It's simple, you have humiliated me, you have terrified me, you have threatened me, more you have threatened the people in my life for whom I would gladly die. I am angry. I am angry in a way that's primeval. I want to kill you for what you've done to me and my family.
As soon as you legalise revenge society will be on a very slippery slope to vendetta. As soon as you permit people to respond based on "primeval" instincts we will have very unpleasant (and lethal) chaos.
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Old 25th Dec 2009, 10:37
  #87 (permalink)  
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corsair,

Erm, could you show us please, your exemption clause in the ROI Statute Book.....and make a note of it for your defence council....it may come in useful with your perceptions of the law and yourself.

DTA

The last time I looked, there were no missing fasteners in the ADD's / ADF log for myself and those that are in place are, I assure you, torque loaded to the correct value.

As reason and logic have now departed from some it would seem.....and as it's Christmas.......a little Kleenex moment for you therefore.........please don't make it a premature one however.....Christmas only comes once a year after all.

YouTube - Clint Eastwood - Do You Feel Lucky, Punk?
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Old 25th Dec 2009, 11:05
  #88 (permalink)  
 
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As soon as you legalise revenge society will be on a very slippery slope to vendetta. As soon as you permit people to respond based on "primeval" instincts we will have very unpleasant (and lethal) chaos.
As it is, with the law and the do-gooders protecting the lowlife criminals in society, we are on a very slippery slope to a total breakdown in law and order, which could also be described as a state of chaos where fear will rule.

Out of the two scenarios, I prefer the one where the type of revenge delivered by Mr Hussain will be tolerated. I will be raising a full and hearty glass of



to him, and all who follow his line of thinking, with my Crimbo feed today!
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Old 25th Dec 2009, 11:33
  #89 (permalink)  
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we will have very unpleasant (and lethal) chaos
Isn't that exactly what we have at the moment or am I missing something?
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Old 25th Dec 2009, 11:37
  #90 (permalink)  
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" As it is, with the law and the do-gooders protecting the lowlife criminals in society, we are on a very slippery slope to a total breakdown in law and order, which could also be described as a state of chaos where fear will rule.

Out of the two scenarios, I prefer the one where the type of revenge delivered by Mr Hussain will be tolerated. I will be raising a full and hearty glass "



So anarchy and vigilante groups are your perception of Nirvana then I assume?.

Thankfully, you are in the minority in the UK overall. Flawed though the present system may be at times, I think it's still preferable......strangely.....to the one you suggest. I think most rational people would agree with this perception.

Do let us know when you decide to practice what you preach though.....should make an interesting court case for the media to report on.
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Old 25th Dec 2009, 11:59
  #91 (permalink)  
 
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Whilst battering somebody around the head with a blunt instrument might work in the subduing department perhaps a few whacks less and a couple of well aimed kicks in the [email protected]@ls would stop the lawless vile filth from reproducing and thus filling the country with more potential scumbags.
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Old 25th Dec 2009, 15:11
  #92 (permalink)  
 
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Any one who crosses my property boundary with intent to steal or otherwise do harm should have no legal rights whatsoever. NONE AT ALL. We would then soon see how very brave the thieving so and so's are.
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Old 25th Dec 2009, 19:53
  #93 (permalink)  
 
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Krystal 'n Chips

So anarchy and vigilante groups are your perception of Nirvana then I assume?.
Did I say that? Your assumption is absurd and incorrect.

Thankfully, you are in the minority in the UK overall.
May I ask how you reach that conclusion? What is your source of this statistic? Certainly looking at the comments here on PPRuNe, I'd say I'm far from being in a minority.

Flawed though the present system may be at times, I think it's still preferable......strangely.....to the one you suggest. I think most rational people would agree with this perception.

That's not what I'm hearing and reading, but of course it's purely an opinon, whereas you've stated your opinion disguised as a fact.

Do let us know when you decide to practice what you preach though.....should make an interesting court case for the media to report on.

When someone invades my territory or threatens me or anyone close to me, I will practise (note spelling of verb versus noun) what I preach, but I'm not going around looking for the opportunity, I'd prefer it not to happen.

Last edited by Capetonian; 25th Dec 2009 at 20:11.
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Old 26th Dec 2009, 02:45
  #94 (permalink)  
 
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OV, your are such a (insert James May witticism)
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Old 26th Dec 2009, 09:13
  #95 (permalink)  
 
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Whatever your belief, don't use the fact the guy was a career criminal to justify the beating (as a few of you are). Hussain did not know he was a career criminal - therefore that fact, which transpired at a later point, is meaningless.

The argument is whether you believe hussain was justified in his actions, or the extent of them. Husain did not know at the time that he was beating a career criminal.

Oh and Corsair

The law? What has that go to do with it?
You are of course joking with that comment I assume...
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Old 26th Dec 2009, 11:32
  #96 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
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Career criminals should serve full jail terms and be tattooed with "Criminal" on their foreheads before release.


That way we will know who to kick the sh1t out of when caught in our properties.
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Old 26th Dec 2009, 11:35
  #97 (permalink)  
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capetonian,

You do a nice line in petards with regard to the views expressed on the subject of this thread and your denial of such......well done.

" Out of the two scenarios, I prefer the one where the type of revenge delivered by Mr Hussain will be tolerated."

As for me, well the views I have expressed are purely my opinion which reflect my personal views based on what I read, hear, view and perceive with regard to UK society overall and how these relate the topic of this thread.

The only facts I have posted are the links I have enclosed.

It's a fascinating thread however and one which has opened a window, as they say into what really scares me at times....not the much maligned chavs, or even the burglars and muggers / criminals, but the pious arrogant hypocrisy of the fabled "middle England" who feel that, as they are "respectable" people then the law only applies to lesser beings.....blissfully ignoring for example their own little aberations such as domestic violence, drug usage, fare dodging as a matter of routine, drink-driving to name but a few. Let these people loose with power and they abuse it to suit themselves. Not that I am suggesting or implying this applies to you of course.

Thanks for the spelling lesson as well. It does seem to be a rather right wing fetish to correct other people's spelling errors on here so I am indebted for your correction of my limited grasp of my native language. In lieu of a suitably attired schoolmistress, I will have to self-flagellate myself to do better next time.
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Old 26th Dec 2009, 11:37
  #98 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: United Kingdom
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The mark of Cain.

Career criminals should serve full jail terms and be tattooed with criminal on their foreheads before release.
Does this include some bankers, politicans, tax evaders, irredeemable traffic offenders ... (continue list to your taste). Question is what is a career criminal or maybe better, what is a criminal career?
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Old 26th Dec 2009, 16:26
  #99 (permalink)  
 
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Burn them I say, burn them all.










Bloody witches.....
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Old 26th Dec 2009, 20:47
  #100 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: UK
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If I decide to break into someone's house and threaten to kill them, thus stepping outside the law, why do I expect the law to protect me if it doesn't go the way I planned?
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