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Memo to pilots using 121.5

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Memo to pilots using 121.5

Old 21st Mar 2010, 00:46
  #161 (permalink)  
 
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I have read evey post in this thread and until now no one has mentioned the Concorde. So what is your point?
I was responding with a bit of thread drift & a to your comment "it is very obvious which country is operating in the dark ages of aviation". I was trying to say that while Britain & France were operating SST aircraft & the USA was not, it was the US still in the dark ages - geddit ?


Oh & by the way ,if your Governments screwed you over the price of fuel like ours does, I doubt you could afford hand held radios with built in VOR's either
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Old 21st Mar 2010, 00:56
  #162 (permalink)  

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I was responding with a bit of thread drift & a to your comment "it is very obvious which country is operating in the dark ages of aviation". I was trying to say that while Britain & France were operating SST aircraft & the USA was not, it was the US still in the dark ages - geddit ?
I know, we were too busy going to the moon and back while you guys still played with aeroplanes. Oh, that Space Shuttle thing slowed us up as well.

Oh & by the way ,if your Governments screwed you over the price of fuel like ours does, I doubt you could afford hand held radios with built in VOR's either
With what is going on in Washington these days, don't feel too alone, we may be enjoying your tax rates on fuel very soon.
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Old 21st Mar 2010, 01:21
  #163 (permalink)  
 
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In the 50's the Decca installations in New York Airways helicopters included the unique 'roller map' displays that enabled the pilot to see his position at a glance, a concept unfeasible with VOR/DME
I personalty have first hand experience with Decca, off watch.
We had two aircraft fitted with these in Southern California (LosAngeles area) in 1968...it worked quite well, however, it was expensive to operate, and...when you went off the roller-map, then what?
Where were you?
Then, often times, the rollers would jam, and the whole contraption ground to a halt.
A good idea, a bad execution.
And, just whom were last to embrace GPS?
The British...due to the 'not invented here' syndrome.
Or, was it Hoffman's revenge...again?
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Old 21st Mar 2010, 01:23
  #164 (permalink)  
 
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c-p / 411A

OK , you win

To get back on track, there are very few UK ATC units that still have 121.5 capability & even less who continuously monitor it. New VHF frequency allocations are as rare as politicians who always speak the truth but an alternative to 121.5 for practice makes a lot of sense IMHO. Having said that, in 39 years of spoiling pilot's navigation, any emegencies I've dealt with have been on the local frequencies using our DF &/or radar......

411A
Good points - my experience was with North Sea helicopers - it was great for pinpointing semi-subs helidecks when they were on the move tho..

And as for GPS - brilliant kit - nowt to do with Hoffman - just our CAA (aka Campaign Against Aviation)
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Old 21st Mar 2010, 06:32
  #165 (permalink)  
 
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that's so true...even in India, i find so many pilots misusing the guard frequency......that shows lack of airmanship...
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Old 21st Mar 2010, 09:20
  #166 (permalink)  
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Final 3 Greens quote;
Next time you are over the UK, why don't you select 121.5, give your call sign then say "training fix, training fix, training fix.'

A few seconds later you will receive your position relative to an easy to identify feature.
So I should hear something along the lines of "HZXXXX, your present position is 138 miles ESE of Ireland"?
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Old 21st Mar 2010, 10:21
  #167 (permalink)  
 
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Twould be a sad day when someone needed help on 121.5, but all the aircraft in the area had their volume turned down due to unnecessary chatter. I hate to say it, but England seems to be the worst offender.
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Old 21st Mar 2010, 12:05
  #168 (permalink)  
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AMF

Why not try for yourself and find out?

That is if you can make yourself heard over some of your colleagues ordering wheel chairs or making PAs to their pax.
 
Old 21st Mar 2010, 13:07
  #169 (permalink)  
 
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Twould be a sad day when someone needed help on 121.5, but all the aircraft in the area had their volume turned down due to unnecessary chatter. I hate to say it, but England seems to be the worst offender.
I haven't flown in a while, so things may have changed, but I assume from that remark that there is a deathly hush on 121.5 over Scotland. Or over Wales.

Leaving the frequency free for cabin PA announcements, company messages, and all the other distractions which may occur.

I do not want to fly sitting behind pilots who are unable to concentrate upon their primary duties because they are distracted by RT exchanges. How do they cope with all the messages passed on their en-route frequency, and which are not addressed to them?

Is it not the case, to get back to the topic, that the task of pointing out misuse of 121.5 is primarily the role of the ground station, and that pilots should have more imortant tasks to perform than to screech "You're on guard" every time somebody speaks on 121.5?
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Old 21st Mar 2010, 13:29
  #170 (permalink)  
 
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Flying for a military contractor we are regularly asked to provide "Practice Pans" for the benefit of London or Scottish Distress and Diversion cells on 243 and occasionally on 121.5.

Perhaps a controller from D&D might like to comment on how useful or otherwise these calls are.


As an aside, i was recently involved in a flight check of a DF station used in the UK's auto-triangulation system on both UHF and VHF "Guard" frequencies. This required us to make numerous calls on both frequencies to check the accuracy of the system...imagine our annoyance at the bleating Americans on 121.5 telling me that I was "transmitting on guard!" I was fully aware of that...that was my task for the day...which they would have known had they read the NOTAMs!
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Old 21st Mar 2010, 14:56
  #171 (permalink)  
 
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I've just been catching up on this thread after several days away and I would like to respond to AMF
I mean, how could anyone get lost over such a little island anyway?
Back in the sixties, when I had access to Air Clues, the RAF flight safety publication, we used to get a lot of amusement from the many articles in every issue about military pilots declaring emergencies because they were lost. The majority, if not all of the pilots in question, were from the USAF

ComJam,

I hope you weren't checking the accuracy of the DF fixes with GPS. The CAA would not approve

Keep up the banter, guys. It is very entertaining.
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Old 21st Mar 2010, 15:15
  #172 (permalink)  
 
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I do not want to fly sitting behind pilots who are unable to concentrate upon their primary duties because they are distracted by RT exchanges. How do they cope with all the messages passed on their en-route frequency, and which are not addressed to them?
Spoken like a true connoisseur…
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Old 21st Mar 2010, 15:34
  #173 (permalink)  
 
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Let me guess, psychological problems?
Actually, no.

Physical disability. Loss of medical accordingly

Not much of a joke.

Your remark is pathetic.

You are ignorant, offensive and insulting.

I hope that the moderators will see your remarks in the same light that I do.
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Old 21st Mar 2010, 22:02
  #174 (permalink)  
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India Four Two quote; I've just been catching up on this thread after several days away and I would like to respond to AMF

Back in the sixties, when I had access to Air Clues, the RAF flight safety publication, we used to get a lot of amusement from the many articles in every issue about military pilots declaring emergencies because they were lost. The majority, if not all of the pilots in question, were from the USAF
Those USAF pilots weren't really lost. They were mapping targets and feeding the coordinates back to SAC, where they were entered by USAF missile techies into a few Minuteman III guidance computers so they'd fly true in the event you really meant "Better Red than dead", and got froggy enough about it to cause other USAF personnel living underground in holes in North Dakota to receive orders to insert and turn their keys.

And you fell for it. I agree; very amusing indeed.

Last edited by AMF; 21st Mar 2010 at 22:43.
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Old 21st Mar 2010, 23:10
  #175 (permalink)  
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Final 3 Greens quote; AMF

Why not try for yourself and find out?
Thanks, but no. I've got better things to do than add my voice to the mix of phony, Battle-of-Britain accents looking for excuses to transmit in an effort to out-elocute each other. Like cricket, that's an English game, and I have no desire to play.

And if I want to experience something so quaint and archaic while in the UK, I'll go visit a castle.

That is if you can make yourself heard over some of your colleagues ordering wheel chairs or making PAs to their pax.
The only things my colleagues order are bourbon, beer, or Scotch, and that's over a bar, not 121.5, so those you refer to must be someone elses's, not mine.
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Old 22nd Mar 2010, 01:04
  #176 (permalink)  
 
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AMF, i believe the discussion was based around the use of 121.5 in UK...not to be confused with England....which you obviously won't understand.

Wow, these colonials really can't handle banter or ale can they!
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Old 22nd Mar 2010, 09:49
  #177 (permalink)  
 
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An Apology

HotelT
I believe that you owe Wings Folded an apology. You obviously didn't get the subtlety of his post.

It is a sad indictment that a thread that could teach people how and why we use 121.5 here has degenerated into mud slinging, from "professionals".

To non in particular...
If you haven't got anything to add to the debate. Keep your fingers off the keyboard in fear that you may type something stupid and prove to us all that you are a halfwit. Rather than leaving us guessing.

So the solution is what?
We stop using a valuable training aid for both pilots and D&D?
Then a real emergency unfolds and D&D are not as current as they could be. Does that really make sense?
Who would the "Guard Police" rant at then?
The pronunciation of Thames, Edinburgh or Loughborough?
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Old 22nd Mar 2010, 11:29
  #178 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Spunky Monkey
So the solution is what?
We stop using a valuable training aid for both pilots and D&D?
Then a real emergency unfolds and D&D are not as current as they could be. Does that really make sense?
Who would the "Guard Police" rant at then?
The pronunciation of Thames, Edinburgh or Loughborough?
Don't forget the Happisburgh Lighthouse

Thank you for navigating us back to the topic; which I believe is something like "There's a lot of ill-discipline by pilots world-wide on 121.5, and it's a UK situation in respect of Practice PANs." The former would seem to be endemic, and the latter is relatively infrequent?
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Old 22nd Mar 2010, 14:49
  #179 (permalink)  
 
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And if I want to experience something so quaint and archaic
and you could be aware of your altitude in inches of mercury, if quaint and archaic is your thing.

But Europeans are tolerant of your weird little idiosyncrancies. Why are you not?
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Old 22nd Mar 2010, 15:37
  #180 (permalink)  
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May I offer a perspective from those low hour aviators who will benefit from using the services of the D&D cell. As a very low hour PPL I found myself flying a ferry flight with weather way beyond my capabilities at the time. The lowering cloudbase meant I ended up at xxx ft over the Midlands in the vicinity of the Rugby masts. Only luck meant I did not end up being a CFIT statistic.

At that time I had not been trained to use a VOR/ADF as it was not part of the UK PPL syllabus at the time. With just 4 hours of Instrument Flying I knew that I could not fly into cloud as that would have even more foolish, if that is possible, than getting myself into this predicament.

Fast forward several years and now I am teaching student PPLs how to avoid getting lost, busting controlled airspace, flying into terrain etc. My brief was ALWAYS plan thoroughly but if you find yourself "uncertain of your position" then best to talk to someone ASAP. By all means use a local ATC unit but if all else fails get onto 121.5 and request assistance. The point of the training fix/practice PAN is to show the PPL student how easy it is to get immediate help. It could save their lives or avoid them busting a zone later on.

Fast forward quite a few more years and I am lucky enough to be sitting in a 2 crew aeroplane, at FL370, with triple IRS and dual GPS and sometimes hear the words: "request training fix" on 121.5. Yes it's true I may have to turn down the volume a smidge on box 2 but it is a small price to pay for someone getting training that could save their lives one day.
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