Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > PPRuNe Social > Jet Blast
Reload this Page >

Police, the Law, Crime & Everything (merging)

Jet Blast Topics that don't fit the other forums. Rules of Engagement apply.

Police, the Law, Crime & Everything (merging)

Old 8th Jan 2006, 11:47
  #1 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 53
Police, the Law, Crime & Everything (merging)

The Association of British Drivers is currently running a campaign in the European Court of Human Rights to protect our "Right to Silence" in the UK.
Basically they're fighting against the "self incrimination" that happens when you return a Notice of Intended Prosecution confirming the drivers identity under duress.
A link: http://www.abd.org.uk/righttosilence.htm
SixDelta is offline  
Old 8th Jan 2006, 12:30
  #2 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Bri
Posts: 31
Re: Caught Speeding, See here...

I was caught on camera at 51mph in a 40 zone on a dual carriage way. The road I was on is mainly national speed limit but about 1/2 mile from the junction the limit changes. At no time did I put myself or any other person in danger.

I copped 3 points and a fine.

I was guilty so, have no complaints.

The law is the law. We cannot choose which laws we will abide by and which ones we will not.

Forget all this euro court rubbish if you dont want the points.... dont speed, its alot easier.

What is this world comming too?
TooLowTerrain is offline  
Old 8th Jan 2006, 12:40
  #3 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: London
Posts: 419
Re: Caught Speeding, See here...

If this case succeeds the Police may have to return to using traffic patrol officers to catch speeding motorists instead of roadside cameras that usually cannot identify the driver.
stagger is offline  
Old 8th Jan 2006, 13:44
  #4 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: UK
Age: 55
Posts: 240
Re: Caught Speeding, See here...

I had to shop Mrs BW when one of these appeared on the doorstep addressed to me as the registered keeper.

Terrible it was....

As I understand the law, I would have copped the points if I didn't declare who was driving - it seems I have to be in a position to know who's driving. I guess if I could demonstrate an inability to actually know and a decent alibi for myself, I could put it back to being their problem, but silence won't work...

BW
bladewashout is offline  
Old 8th Jan 2006, 14:21
  #5 (permalink)  
ανώνυμος
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Perth
Posts: 111
Re: Caught Speeding, See here...

I must admit to wondering for some time where our rights went to face our accuser in court. If you get pinged by a camera then the police are the accuser (more accurately the camera) but surely you should have the right to verify that the camera was correctly calibrated. From this I reached the conclusion that if I get flashed by a camera (especially a mobile one) then I should be able to stop and insist that it be sealed as evidence for independant testing. I appreciate that the thing probably is correct but don't I have the right to find out if human error on the part of the person who set it up was a factor? or even a fault in the camera.

I have never tested this conclusion but a case about a year ago in Melbourne where the fixed cameras were shown to be incorrect makes me wonder whether it is worth persuing. The beauty of going down this track is that if we all did it, the cameras would all be sealed for most of the time and off the roads. In fact if one person got away with the defence that they were not allowed to face thier accuser it would be worth starting a fund to finance keeping them off the road in this way.

Can't you tell I hate these things. It's not because I don't agree that speeding is wrong, but I disagree with the way the police and the government use them as a revenue raising tool. Put them at accident blackspots and I approve but put them in the only short 60 zone on an 80 road knowing the signage needs changing and they deserve the criticism they get.

R4+Z is offline  
Old 8th Jan 2006, 14:35
  #6 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: London
Posts: 132
Re: Caught Speeding, See here...

Originally Posted by TooLowTerrain
The law is the law. We cannot choose which laws we will abide by and which ones we will not.
Correct but in a democracy, even a parliamentary one, we can (and should) do what we legally can to influence which laws are enacted. Otherwise it is quickly becomes a dictatorship.
Forget all this euro court rubbish
So what's the point of it then, if we don't use it? Even Governments have to play by the rules.
Aiglon
aiglon is offline  
Old 8th Jan 2006, 14:43
  #7 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Bri
Posts: 31
Re: Caught Speeding, See here...

aiglon.

What I mean to say is, rather than waste time looking for loop holes, would it not be easier to remain within the speed limits?
TooLowTerrain is offline  
Old 8th Jan 2006, 14:48
  #8 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: at work
Posts: 56
Re: Caught Speeding, See here...

Originally Posted by R4+Z
II reached the conclusion that if I get flashed by a camera (especially a mobile one) then I should be able to stop and insist that it be sealed as evidence for independant testing.
This is done by the traffic officers testing it before on a callobrated speedo both before and after they use a mobile tester. That's how they get round that one.

Fix one?? Don't know.

FE
Full Emergency is offline  
Old 8th Jan 2006, 15:07
  #9 (permalink)  
ανώνυμος
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Perth
Posts: 111
Re: Caught Speeding, See here...

FE

Yes but human error can still come into play and also simple plain dishonesty. Another factor is heat coefficients, in OZ these things are taken from an air conditioned van, set up and in theory calibrated correctly. They are then left to bake in 40+ degrees direct sun and it should be taken into account that they are painted black.

Don't I have the right to ensure that none of these factors have come into play?

Not long ago a guy here in perth won a court case against a long list of parking offences because the weights and measures laws required timing devices to be properly calibrated. Surely the same laws apply and the requirement to prove they were correctly set applies?
R4+Z is offline  
Old 8th Jan 2006, 15:26
  #10 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: UK
Age: 43
Posts: 588
Re: Caught Speeding, See here...

The law is the law. We cannot choose which laws we will abide by and which ones we will not.
And if you were not speeding and the camera was at fault?

As happened recently?
eal401 is offline  
Old 8th Jan 2006, 15:30
  #11 (permalink)  
ανώνυμος
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Perth
Posts: 111
Re: Caught Speeding, See here...

eal401

My point precisely but how do you prove it at a later date if you can't force it to be sealed or tested there and then?
R4+Z is offline  
Old 8th Jan 2006, 15:40
  #12 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: UK
Age: 43
Posts: 588
Re: Caught Speeding, See here...

how do you prove it
Nerve I think!

The guy who was done recently (do a search for it) pressed for copies of the photos and was able to prove that he was doing 18mph not the 45-odd (don't recall exactly) the camera claimed.

It proved that the camera partnership in question was not doing their job properly.
eal401 is offline  
Old 8th Jan 2006, 15:58
  #13 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: london/UK
Posts: 499
Re: Caught Speeding, See here...

It will be interesting, and unfortunate if they do succeed.

Not only will it effect speed cameras, but any offence where the driver was not stopped at the time. Not a problem to those that want to drive in any way they wish irrespective of the consequences.

So, anyone who's car is involved in a failing to stop accident wont be forced to say who was driving it. That'll be good wont it. No more being presecuted for failing to stop after accidents.

As document offences become detectable by camera, then police wont be able to prove them either. Rather flies in the face of some of your demands for police to take action over offences other than speeding doesn't it EAL401.

And finally, drink driving. Could effect that too, as you are effectivly forced to give the evidence of being over the limit your self, by providing your blood urine or breath to prove it...Just think, being able to have a few drinks and cause mayhem.......A good idea EAL401!

So what will you moan about then EAL401? The lack of dicression by traffic officers of course! So just turning the wheel backwards.
bjcc is offline  
Old 8th Jan 2006, 16:01
  #14 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: London
Posts: 132
Re: Caught Speeding, See here...

Originally Posted by TooLowTerrain
What I mean to say is, rather than waste time looking for loop holes, would it not be easier to remain within the speed limits?
How do you define a "loophole"? What we seem to be talking about here is the fact that the Government have overriden the right of silence and the right not to incriminate oneself, all in the interests of making it easier to extract money from speeding motorists. NOTE: I am not distinguishing between someone who was speeding and someone who was not speeding, so
would it not be easier to remain within the speed limits?
is not really a relevant question.
Aiglon
aiglon is offline  
Old 8th Jan 2006, 16:04
  #15 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: beverley
Posts: 262
Re: Caught Speeding, See here...

Originally Posted by stagger
If this case succeeds the Police may have to return to using traffic patrol officers to catch speeding motorists instead of roadside cameras that usually cannot identify the driver.
This is what should be happining anyway,the cameras do not catch uninsured drunken bank robbers when they are doing the limit?

Also you can argue your case with a traffic cop,he may or may not let you off,but a bollocking at the roadside is better than a fine and points.

My most recent set of points resulted from going through finshed roadworks on the M62,road was finished,cones away no workers etc,but still two cameras of the gatso type.I passed these at 50,then as I accelerated away from the roadworks I failed to see the camera van hidden behind a trailer on a bridge and got pinged for 68mph on the motorway!
Now, I was speeding due the temporary limit but it was 9pm on a perfect july day no trafiic and road finished,a traffic cop would not have stopped me let alone give me the points since they are well trained and have good judgement-something a camera will never have.
It was the final straw for me so I now have a gps camera detector and a radar jammer(its for my garage door officer!) not so I can flout the law but to save my livlihood from similar injustices. Had I been doing 90 outside a school then I would have paid the fine without complaint.

With regards to loopholes,I am all for getting around incriminating yourself,everytime I have been caught the police have refused to show me picture-I knew it was me driving but that is not the point is it?

Cameras-money making scam
markflyer6580 is offline  
Old 8th Jan 2006, 16:08
  #16 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: He's on the limb to nowhere
Posts: 1,981
Re: Caught Speeding, See here...

bjcc.

Plenty of other countries succesfully prosecute speeders and red traffic light runners using cameras without requiring the registered owner to incriminate himself in the way the UK does. The UK still has things to learn about human rights from its former colonies, hopefully the European Court will set them straight.
slim_slag is offline  
Old 8th Jan 2006, 16:33
  #17 (permalink)  
ανώνυμος
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Perth
Posts: 111
Re: Caught Speeding, See here...

Ok so how about this one

My number plate is damaged so the last digit is not readable. I have already escaped one ticket (would grudgingly have paid) but I got pinged in an obvious trap zone (short 60 zone on an otherwise 80 road and poorly signed, I came in from a side street with no sign before I was flashed) yet I have been informed by my employer that they have recieved a ticket which will be forwarded to me.

Now if the number plate is unreadable in the photo the police can't issue the ticket (they could track me down and do me for the number plate being unreadable), but if I want to see the photo I have to attend in person giving them the chance to identify me. This is a speculative ticket on their part and as such is illegal but if I question it I incriminate myself.

This admitedly is justified but will they get any repercussions from breaking the law?

If you think yes then you are just kidding yourself.
R4+Z is offline  
Old 8th Jan 2006, 17:10
  #18 (permalink)  

Senis Semper Fidelis
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Lancashire U K
Posts: 1,288
Re: Caught Speeding, See here...

Read the rules and regs regarding the " Construction and use" of road signs, this also include measurments and road markings, these are laid down by statute, ny deviation from how they are written means that the law be it speeding or parking cannot be enforced.

I have checked most of th council road signs for cameras ad speed limits within most of the local areas I travel in 90% do notcomply with the Road Traffic Act, that gives you an automatic get out of jail card. even temporarysigns on mtorways put out by contractors are 95% incorrect, start looking and you will see what I mean.

EG: oblong sign advising of camera but on same sign the small thirty sign also appears, this sign is wrong and actually can be ignored( you need big balls) the only sign that can be used to advise of a speedlimit is a big round sign with the number in the centre, it must not contain anything else and MUST be the right colour and design.

Look into it it could save all of you he odd points an fines!

Vfr
Vfrpilotpb is offline  
Old 8th Jan 2006, 17:12
  #19 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Bri
Posts: 31
Re: Caught Speeding, See here...

[QUOTE=aiglon]How do you define a "loophole"? What we seem to be talking about here is the fact that the Government have overriden the right of silence and the right not to incriminate oneself, all in the interests of making it easier to extract money from speeding motorists.

An FPN issued as a result of being pinged by a camera has the caution printed on it.

"You do not have to say anything"

"it may harm your defence if you do not mention something you later rely on in court"

If the vehicle is registered to you its obvious that the keeper will receive the FPN. If you are not the guilty party then, you should have to provide details of the driver.

Its unreasonable for any person to expect to the law to allow a person to say nothing, then get away committing an offence.

The FPN is an alternative to going to court... you can if you wish go to court where all parties produce their evidence and the court decides the outcome.

If a person accepts they were in the wrong they have the option of accepting a fixed penalty without the inconvienience of going to court.

So then,

I drive my car drunk, knock someone down, a passerby clocks the registration. I exercise my right to silence, It can be proved it was my car, but no person can place me at the steering wheel.... Job done! If some of the people here get their way.... I'll get away with it. Happy days!
Never mind the poor person that is now in a wheel chair or worse.

Hmmmm. not convinced this one has been thought through!
TooLowTerrain is offline  
Old 8th Jan 2006, 17:16
  #20 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Bri
Posts: 31
Re: Caught Speeding, See here...

Oh yeah by the way.

The reason you accept the FPN without seeing the evidence is because any communication out side of the court will count as an interview and is a breach of PACE.
TooLowTerrain is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us Archive Advertising Cookie Policy Privacy Statement Terms of Service

Copyright 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.