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American Gun Laws

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American Gun Laws

Old 28th Jun 2001, 23:15
  #1 (permalink)  
trolleydollylover
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Post American Gun Laws

This thread partly pooks at OCBs comments in Slashers Thread "Not Again"

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"Here in Texas we have a armed society. A 9mm in each hip pocket and an AK47 behind every pick-up truck and car seat. A armed society is a very polite and respectful society.
We would be glad to welcome Slasher and his kind to Texas where we could rearrange some of their bad habits and give them all a major attitude adjustment."
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OCB what you dont realise is that as a nation you have been trying to do this since WWII and had your arses kicked frequently. You even turned up to that bash 2 years late.

Dont you realise that your 5th Ammednment Balls is reviled by the rest of the civilised world.

Does anybody know how many people are killed in the US by guns a day. It is a staggering amount from a civilised country.

OCB I dont generally read your threads but now you sound like that Idiot Ronchommer. I do not subscribe to your religious forcefulness but that is your choice. But standing by the right to bear arms is totally rediculous. I personnally believe the NRA are seriously mad.

I hope that more people support the Mothers Against Guns. Maybe commonsense might onday prevail in your country.

OH by the way I hope you will one day get a proper foreign policy.

 
Old 28th Jun 2001, 23:49
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Devils Advocate
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Trouble is that most Texans think 'going abroad' means leaving the state !

Q). Just how many non-millionaires are represented in the USA house of Congress and / or the Senate ?

A). Not many, is how many !

America - land of the brave (well you'd need to be with all those guns about) and home of the free (so long as you've got plenty of dosh in the bank).
 
Old 29th Jun 2001, 00:19
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Engineer
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A word of warning

OCB is a god fearing person and you should be careful not to incur the wrath of the almighty
 
Old 29th Jun 2001, 00:21
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Winston Smith
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trolleydollylover,

I'm having that strange inkling that this thread is going to bloat to at least 10 pages during the next few days.

Though I certainly don't agree with ocb in ontological matters, I think I clearly have to subscribe to his views concerning man's inalienable right to self-defense. As I said in the "Not again!" thread, his statement that an "armed society is a very polite and respectful society" is hard to refute. An armed society is also the only safe-guard against an evil government like the one who committed the Waco massacre, to name but one case. It doesn't matter whether they were nuts or not - Janet Reno probably thought she could get away with it just because they were different. - old_cross_bound, you would be taken much more seriously if only you stopped clobbering us with His Wrath.

A government which does not have to fear its own people does not need to ban guns.

That's it for now.

P.S.: I think you are talking about the Second Amendment, aren't you?

 
Old 29th Jun 2001, 00:39
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Davaar
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I do not live in Texas, or even the USA, and I do not own a handgun. I have shot everything from a .177" airgun to a 4” naval gun, but I have never killed with anything more lethal than a can of Raid. That is just to establish my wimphood.

However.... how many million Ukrainians were exterminated by the Communists in the 1930s, and how many fewer would that have been if they had been armed?

When and why did the UK introduce strict gun ownership controls? I have read, and it would be easy to check, that the time was just after World War 1, and the reason was government’s fear of disorder among returning veterans who found that they had not come back to a land “fit for heroes to live in”.

I have also read, and I’ll try to find the source, that in those states where it is legal to “carry” the incidence of violent crime is not high, but very low.

Naturally, all this self-help exists only in the US. Really? Here is one, quite recent, from the UK. Rowdies terrorise an old woman whose cottage is just outside the village. She complains to police but,.... well it is the budget and resources, you know. Can’t have an officer there all day and all night, can we, Missus?

She tells one of the lads of the village. He and other lads visit the terrorisers, reason with them, sing a few hymns, give them 12 hours to leave -- for ever. Persuaded by the logic, they leave; first complaining to the police, some trumped up story about a beating.

Those budgets again! Shock and Dismay. Police cannot find a single clue. Not one. It really is a scandal. Police confess themselves baffled by the Napoleons of Crime. Peace returns. Old lady is undisturbed.
 
Old 29th Jun 2001, 01:35
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airtaxi
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The old saying goes "it isn't the gun that kills you, it's the person pulling the trigger".
Maybe you should have to pass an intelligence test before you can own a gun?

I must say that it isn't often I agree with OCB but I think he has a point about a government becoming too powerful (big brother,New World Order etc). No matter how democratic a country claims to be you can bet that lethal force will always be authorised against unruly citizens..
 
Old 29th Jun 2001, 01:39
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Mert
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People, before we turn this in to a big " my country is better than your country " pissing contest just remember this, it doesn't matter if you are an outsider looking in at another culture, or an insider looking out ( think about that one for a minute ) your field of vision is going to be very narrow. As for the idea of owning guns in my country is concerned, I don't give a good god d*mn if the next guy chooses to own a gun, it's his business, not mine.
 
Old 29th Jun 2001, 01:49
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Mr moto
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An intelligence test for gun licences in the US. Now that would seriously limit the weapons on the street but the people who pass were probably not the problem in the first place.

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the constitutional right to carry arms conditional. That it is 'in the absence of an organized militia'.

Perhaps the Straw Giant has no means of defending itself.
 
Old 29th Jun 2001, 02:36
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Mycroft
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Shortly after the last UK gun amnesty /i saw a number of the guns that had been handed in and passed to a major museums reference collection rather than being destroyed, and there were several H&K MP5s - a weapon that is banned in civilian hands even in most of the states and has never been legal in the UK.
 
Old 29th Jun 2001, 02:53
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Squawk 8888
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Mr. Moto- the Second Amendment is unconditional, the phrase "well-ordered militia" is simply a preamble stating the reason for protecting the right to keep and bear arms. There were two reasons for this; the first was that they were simply extending the British tradition of citizens arming themselves so that they can be called to service on short notice (at the time, British law required citizens to arm themselves) and more importantly, the colonists realized that the best way to avoid tyranny was to have a populace that was better-armed than the state. Tyranny is what you get when the people fear the government, while freedom is what you get when the government fears the people. Do you think Stalin would have been able to murder 11 million Ukrainians if every farmer had a rifle? How many Jews would have gone to the chambers if the SS men had been afraid to approach their homes?

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Per dementia ad astra
 
Old 29th Jun 2001, 04:18
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Winston Smith
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Excellent post, Davaar!

Criminals couldn't care less whether guns are illegal or not. Quite on the contrary, they will feel much safer if they can reasonably expect their victims to be unarmed. Only law-abiding citizens would turn their guns in. And I suppose Western governments wouldn't be afraid of them, would they? ...

It's quite simple really: Almost every male adult Swiss citizen is required to have a fully automatic weapon complete with ammunition at home at all times. Switzerland is one of the safest places on Earth, and until very recently, no people has ever been more free than the Swiss. As has been said, guns don't kill people...
 
Old 29th Jun 2001, 05:09
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Capt Vegemite
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MAKE MY DAY!
 
Old 29th Jun 2001, 05:09
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Squawk 8888
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<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">Criminals couldn't care less whether guns are illegal or not. Quite on the contrary, they will feel much safer if they can reasonably expect their victims to be unarmed. Only law-abiding citizens would turn their guns in.</font>
So true, Winston. Here in YYZ street shootings with handguns have become a daily occurrence, yet Canada has some of the toughest gun laws in the world. Just last weekend we had three murders, all committed with prohibited weapons. The crooks now have the run of many neighbourhoods here to the point where firefighters answering calls have to get the cops to escort them because they would be attacked while trying to put out fires. Then on those rare occasions when the victims of crime successfully fought back, guess who ended up in jail?

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Per dementia ad astra
 
Old 29th Jun 2001, 08:08
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HugMonster
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Like Davaar, I have owned and used a large variety of firearms, for various purposes. Can't compete with Naval cannon, though...

Anecdotal evidence is always the most dangerous, and it is generally on anecdotal evidence that journalists like to try to hang stories.

You have to look at the overall situation.

Having been closely involved with the security forces in a nastily violent little corner of the world, I saw the statistics not too long ago on private firearm ownership vs. firearm crime and shootings.

In almost all the tables there is a direct correlation between private gun ownership and illegal use of firearms. The USA tops the tables in all categories.

You may think that ownership of guns makes the citizenry safer. You may think that, but you'd be wrong. An armed society is a very, very dangerous society.

The protection of the people against tyranny argument is total, childish nonsense. The aim of the militia was not to protect the people against tyranny, but to protect against invasion from outside. Furthermore, there is, outside of the National Guard, no genuine legal militia in the USA any more. Therefore the 2nd. Amendment is dead and overdue for burial.

Next, does anyone suppose that if the US government were to be turned against the American people, they would be able to protect themselves with nickel-plated .38 snubnose revolvers and saturday night specials - against M16's, GPMG's, .50's mounted on Hummvees? Give me a break. A bit too much Hollywood there.

Where do you suppose that criminals obtain their illegal firearms from? The vast majority are stolen from legal collections. The more "legal" firearms there are, the easier it is for criminals to obtain them.

Guns do not kill people - true. However, in any society there are always homicidal maniacs. Let's not make it easy for them to become armed homicidal maniacs.
 
Old 29th Jun 2001, 09:33
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Davaar
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I see little point in discussion with anyone who dismisses any view other than his as childish nonsense. Goodbye.
 
Old 29th Jun 2001, 12:23
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swashplate
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Must say I have to agree with HugMonster on this one!!

I understand the 'protect our freedoms' argument, and I don't trust the Politico's, but I also have wondered how a 20-shot handgun is supposed to protect the citizenry against precision-guided munitions, fuel-air explosives, armoured divisions etc.

Even the crappy SA-80 (sorry, Individual Weapon ) would be a match for 'em

I used to work with a Canadian guy who said it was the 'frontier mentality' at work!!!!

I don't necessarily feel any safer with our post-Dunblane laws (engage WUSS mode!) but I wouldn't want to live in a DMZ like some areas of the U.S. seem to be.......

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Live long and Prosper.....
 
Old 29th Jun 2001, 12:47
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The Guvnor
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As someone who has personally owned a variety of weaponry - including a Sig P226, MP5K, HK53 and a Sites Spectre I think I can speak with a certain amount of authority on the matter.

I wan't residing in the States at the time - I was in Africa, an area that by and large makes the worst crack infested area of the States look like absolute paradise.

Unfortunately, I was not able to adopt the stance of "well, if I'm not armed then the blokes that hold me up will just go away" - largely because said blokes had the interesting perspective of shooting first and asking questions later. The only way to avoid ending up the late Guvnor was to respond in a similar manner - in effect, the only language they understood.

However, that's Africa - and as I said, it's nothing like any part of the States I've ever seen.

The fact of the matter is that any society that has its kids taking firearms into schools and wiping out other kids is in a state of fundamental crisis. The fact that schools have installed metal detectors as an SOP indicates to us here in the UK that US society is well and truly f*cked up.

When I returned from Africa, I had to leave my hardware there. And why not? I certainly don't need to carry a P226 in Regent Street - and to use an HK53 to hunt deer with is overkill, to say the least - quite apart from the damage to the meat caused by hydroshock! I felt naked without my P226, which I had carried 24/7 for most of the preceeding fifteen years for about six months - I still generally make sure that I get tables in restaurants away from windows, with my back to the wall and facing doors but that's just habit.

And you know what? It's actually a relief!
 
Old 29th Jun 2001, 14:09
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Winston Smith
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Davaar,

it appears that the arguments for self-defense are just too simple and plain obvious for our liberal friends to understand.

Private firearm ownership in the USA was even less restricted in the earlier part of this century, and I'm told that it was not unusual for boys to take weapons with them to school for shooting lessons. Those were the days when a simple "no" uttered by parents was all to keep their children away from the (unlocked) gun cabinet.


Hug:
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">Anecdotal evidence is always the most dangerous, and it is generally on anecdotal evidence that journalists like to try to hang stories.</font>
I don't know what exactly you are refering to. Switzerland is no "anecdote". It is a self-respecting society.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">Next, does anyone suppose that if the US government were to be turned against the American people, they [...]</font>
The point is, many American patriots think that has already happened, with the turning point sixty years ago.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">Where do you suppose that criminals obtain their illegal firearms from? The vast majority are stolen from legal collections. The more "legal" firearms there are, the easier it is for criminals to obtain them.</font>
Especially in the Old World, criminals can easily acquire firearms from Eastern Europe, mainly from Russia and the Balkan war zone. No need to steal them.


And though I'm sure some of you are certainly not going to like it, I confidently state that I'd feel much more secure living in a society full of the likes of ocb than in the "safe and protected" world of Big Brother that Western Europe is rapidly turning into. A neighbor like ocb may protect may family one day - the authorities won't give a ****.


[This message has been edited by Winston Smith (edited 29 June 2001).]
 
Old 29th Jun 2001, 14:18
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trolleydollylover
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Great Post HugMonster.

Ed and co wake up and get some common sense. I really do hope that this thread doesnt become a jingoistic paradise.

From being on the other end of the red hornets on a two way range, you cannot justify weapons in a civil society.

Who is America trying to protect itself from, Paraguay or Belize. I am afraid to say fellas if they are going to get you it is going to be car bombs not a full scale invasion starting at Wal*Mart.

 
Old 29th Jun 2001, 16:02
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Gog
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Trolley and all, for clarity a question.

Is this about

A: handguns (eg. pistols )
B: all guns.

In private hands ?
 

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