The Forgotten Modular ATPL Student
 

Hi guys,

It would appear that most cadetships this year (except the initial TUI MPL scheme) have excluded Modular ATPL students from applying.

I am assuming there are many other students like myself with minimal financial backing, but have made a conscious effort to obtain a PPL, and embark on the ATPL journey.
Being considered as over qualified for cadet opportunities, and also under qualified for schemes such as BA's Whitetail programme (CPL ME IR and UPRT required to be eligible), I see a disadvantage in the window of opportunity for modular students.

I am a determined modular student, working full time, with a mortgage and bills to pay - I will still struggle to make it to the flight deck without taking a significant loan to cover latter parts of my training.

I'm sure there are many other people in the same boat as me, so I though this thread would be useful to discuss any upcoming opportunities for modular students with some ATPL exams under their belt!

What exactly do you mean by "Cadetship"? Do you mean airline jobs or integrated training courses?
Modular is cheaper. Finish your modular CPL/IR and apply for jobs - there has probably never been a better time to become a pilot.

By cadetship, I mean a cadet programme that will take you from zero to fATPL or MPL.

Modluar is cheaper yes but I still have to find £X,000 to get a CPL ME IR after I finish my ATPL theory examinations.

Gotcha. Presumably paid for by someone else? I'm sure those exist but I wouldn't count on it. How many hours do you have? Plan to pay your own way. The good news is there's probably never been a better time to become a pilot. You mentioned 'determined' - that's exactly what you need to be. Your life should revolve around finishing those ATPL exams and making this happen. You mentioned a mortgage - can you sell the house or remortgage it? You can save the money in a couple of years but borrowing is just more convenient as it gets you into the job quicker. It's a limited duration career, which means every year you waste you're losing out on a final years salary. Do you want to miss out on £200k for the sake of a £25k loan?
If your credit rating is any good then you'll have no problem securing funding.

I think the Air France cadet programme has several entry points depending on what stage of training you are at and I don't believe they necessarily view more advanced training as either an advantage or disadvantage. The only point at which I don't think you can apply for their programme is if you have started an MCC/JOC because upon completing one you become eligible for their newly-qualified pilot entry point. Quite a clever system if you ask me.

One point I think is worth making is that with these "fully-funded" cadet programmes you are still paying for your own training through having a reduced salary, for example I believe the TUI programme has a base salary of £32k for four years. Compared with a direct entry salary, you are £18k down, the difference once you move from SO to FO is something like £25 according to PPJN. If you've already started it may simply be worth seeing it through to get that higher starting salary.

It’s always been that way. You’ve never had access to the big ticket sponsored schemes with ATPL exams.

It’s a gamble - you either wait out and hope for one of those spots, or crack on with Modular or integrated. I’m sure there’s plenty of integrated students with a few exam passes annoyed that they can’t apply as well. Just how it is.

You’ve made the right call going Modular. I’ve said it before, rudestuff speaks an awful lot of sense regarding career earnings and taking credit now to get ahead. What good is feeling righteous and noble about not borrowing but spending 4 years less as a training captain on training captain money? Not all debt is ‘bad’, ask anyone with a mortgage!

thank you for this message rudestuff. Although a difficult situation to accept, it’s good to consider it from this perspective. I have always ignored the salary at the end of cadet schemes as I just want to get my foot in the door flying for an airline.

I would be taking a a significant pay cut if successful cut on a cadet scheme but this is the career path I wish to take for the rest of my life so I’ve never thought twice about it. Good to see it from this perspective, a 30k loan for a higher starting salary seems sensible.

it hasn’t always been that way. 4 years ago I was applying to cadet schemes with no experience whatsoever, and there were successful candidates with ATPLs complete. This has only come about this year..

I hear your point, it makes sense. Although difficult to ignore sponsorship opportunities!

thanks for this reply Chris! I will look in to the Air France schemes.

It makes sense when you compare with direct entry salary.. are you on the modular training route too?

Talking about the UK?

The last cadet schemes, as in paid for not just some fluffy marketing spin for buying a type rating, were back in 2015 sort of time with BA and Virgin. And you couldn’t apply with passes.

I'm not modular yet though I have a PPL. I've been wanting airlines to fund ab initial training for the past decade whilst I've been saving up so the modular route is an option. I'm in a position now where modular is just about affordable without debt but I do wonder if some airlines, given their target audience, might say "sorry Chris but you've worked too hard and earned too much over the past decade, these programmes are for people who can't afford training". That's be a bit ironic to say the least.

The big advantage with fully funded cadet programmes is that the airlines have some serious skin in the game and you've got a conditional job offer right at the start of the process. You don't have to spend £60k then go job hunting.

I suspect it's more about the sponsoring airline waiting to have full oversight of the training program, which they can't have if someone turns up with half the course done already.

A decade??? You must have some serious distractions but well done for sticking to it. I still assert that a motivated, non-smoker, non-drinker with no kids could achieve a fATPL in 2-3 years starting with no money and using 50/50 borrowing and saving.

Provided I get approved for a loan in the coming months I'll be living proof of this. Managed to spare a few pennies for beer on the side too.

Loganair
TUI
DHL
BA CityFlyer
WizzAir
BA Euroflyer
Jet2
Eastern Airways

All airlines that have taken on people like you, and indeed me, without asking for a penny for type rating.

BA are tagging Modular guys and girls at Skyborne, LE, L3, CAE and FTE.

Get your blue wallet and suck it up that we didn’t have mom and dads house to re-mortgage; the opportunities are there.

Be careful with taking out loans to pay for training. There are many CPL fATPLs in the UK who cannot get a job and who have not been able to for years. The common path is to get your instructor rating and instruct for PPL but that pays pennies.
Modular in the UK now runs around £70-80k not including any type rating.

I didn't have the luxury of living at home since my parents moved around quite a bit before retiring in the sticks. I'm very reluctant to borrow, there's probably a fair few who did in Autumn 2019 who then lost the day job/had a severely reduced income during the pandemic. I wonder where they are now? What I do have though is an enjoyable non-aviation career which I'd want to do for the next 35 years if aeroplanes didn't exist.

What I'd do is go part-time after another couple of years in my current job at the tail-end of the inbound recession and possibly do modular then. If there's lots of fully-funded schemes it may be better to wait a bit longer, we'll see.

As above, there is lots of schemes available right now - you should be applying now if you have the opportunity to do it. If family or work isn't a blocker to applying to the schemes, I wouldn't suggest waiting / holding off for the "perfect scenario" - it won't happen. If you're serious about doing it, it's never been better in terms of recruitment and opportunity of these schemes.

Don't leave it too late, to when you might have a family, people dependant on your income and actually you can't disappear for 6 months for sunny weather flying (trust me, I know what I'm talking about).

There is nothing wrong with going modular, you just need to accept that you will be paying all of the cost yourself. It seems to be pretty common now that most don't want more then 3 different ATO's, expect 85%+ on ATPLs and first time on IR.

I hear you. But having only passed some ATPLs I am still a fair distance away from the finish line - and I would still hugely benefit from a funded CPL ME IR, aUPRT, APS MCC. This is my point, I’m excluded from all cadet schemes having done a few ATPL exams.. however, I am still a fair distance from the finish line (and will no doubt have to take on significant debt to get me over it).

If I'm honest - the cadet schemes are astronaut selection level. BA is taking 70 on this intake, likely 5-10,000 will apply.

Now I'm not suggesting you aren't good enough OR "you don't stand a chance". In maths terms, just over 1% of people that apply will get offered (less <1% if towards 10k). For many people, it has taken multiple attempts to get through - there is lots of blogs that confirm this.

Are you going to continue holding out hope for that, or can you start now and plan effectively to make it happen?

Good luck.

the latter. Thank you 4KBeta.

Best of luck too!

I'm going to be putting in for all of the sponsored schemes I'm eligible for as they become available, no family commitments etc. at the moment so I have options.

I faced "astronaut odds" for two out of the last three jobs I've been in, the one which didn't have such odds was an internal promotion. Hopefully the likes of Jet2, Easyjet, Loganair etc. will join the ranks of airlines offering sponsored training and there will be 5-6 opportunities per year to apply. Any sought after job will have plenty of people applying in the internet age.

One question worth asking I think is how ATPL theory schools log the 650 hours of study which must be completed for the course. I don't suppose it would be possible for someone who is saving up to buy all of the ATPL theory books, sit no exams (to remain eligible for sponsored programmes) and study the subjects over and over again for a few years so that they memorise as much of it as possible before smashing all of the exams within a timeframe of two or three months?

I don’t think EZY will start offering sponsored training. Actually I got selected for their MPL (and if everything goes well) I’ll gladly join them, btw I’ll have to pay £100k… I think when a company announces that they’re going to pay for their cadets’ training they’re going to face a big hit in terms of stock price IMHO.

Likely a tax deductable expense...

If it wasnt, lets take BA... 70 students * 100k ...drop in the ocean vs current profits and scheme ROI.

There is a requirement for 10% of the hours to be live tuition (65 hours). Bristol Groundschool cover this time via revision weeks (which I highly recommend).

Sit no exams to remain eligible for sponsored positions? Is this for real?! 'Planning' to get a sponsored position is like planning to win the lottery, it isn't going to happen. There is a tried and trusted route to the airlines, and that is working in ground ops while doing a modular CPL/IR over 3-4 years.

Nope, cadetships only take you from zero to hero. You can’t join half way through.

That's slightly wrong.

You can have a PPL, but you will be starting the course as a Zero (so fresh). Many if not nearly all of the intakes recently have PPL's and likely had begun hours building. (quick LinkedIn search will help you)

They key requirement is that you must not have started / sat any ATPL exams.

This has only become apparent this year. Previous TUI and Aer Lingus cadetships allowed you to apply with ATPLs. This year, it is not the case.

To be honest the situation doesn't change after getting 200h on pistons and having a cpl me/ir mcc auprt. It gets even worse actually.
Airlines that do not charge for TR have the same amount, if not more competition than those cadet programs. The difference being now they'll also demand more from their applicants, as everyone applying will be a qualified pilot.
Not only will you have to go through the same stuff in the selection process as cadets go through ie. logical games, maths physics group tasks etc. but now in addition to that youll have to demonstrate fluency in atpl technical knowledge and be top gun in the simulator checks among other things.
It's just better to get into a funded cadet program imho- the overall requirements are smaller compared to funded TR schemes for straight out of flight school folks.:)

It’s been like this for years.

my advice if you are eligible for the cadet schemes do not progress any further on the modular route try to get to the cadet schemes.

if you are stuck in between, instructing is probably the best route.

or - sunk cost fallacy move onto something else and fly for fun

Read the post above. It's a perfect example of the attitude you don't want in an airliner: I'm interested in being a pilot but I don't want to actually work hard for it.
Now consider someone who actually WANTS to be a pilot: they'll do whatever it takes to make it happen and overcome each obstacle one at a time until they reach their goal.
Getting into an airliner for a normal person is a three step process:
1) Get the money.
2) Get the licence.
3) Get the job.
The struggle is not over until you have all three, and they require different skillsets.

Link to the other thread you’ve been bashing the modular route on this morning - response is there, not going to duplicate everything that’s already been said…

To me it’s clear that modular students are being squeezed out at the moment in favour of whitetail cadets.

I’ve seen plenty of people from integrated schools get roles directly at tui, loganair, aurigny DHL when there are no active campaigns - where these candidates have exam and flight test failures compared to ‘straight a’ on the modular route. EasyJet also taking from
other schools where CAE can’t deliver. The BACF recruitment drive earlier in the year mainly recruited their inexperienced pilots straight from integrated schools, and from my understanding BA Euroflyer are taking a lot more whitetail over NQPP. The airlines also get a nice healthy kickback from the school when they take one of their cadets - how on earth can modular students compete with that?

I get it - these schools entire business model relies on getting their punters into the airlines and have teams dedicated to working with airlines for doing so.

Yes, there’s Ryanair but no good for those of us that have a UK licence.

But where can we modular students go to get experience - the traditional survey or light twin jobs either don’t exist or are looking for 300 hours plus. I don’t think there is anywhere at the moment, those that are recruiting recently (eg 2Excel) astronaut level selection and competition from those making a career out of that kind of flying.

Yes there is instructing. I spoke to my local
flying schools who’ve all got a que of instructors wanting to start, so the investment in the course hardly seems a smart decision unless you want to make a career out of it.

So where is the modular student to go? I’m not sure - maybe I’m missing something or my CV is just not good enough (I’m not convinced that is the case, I’m mid 30s, have a professional career in the airlines and am able to demonstrate the competencies in abundance).

Exactly. For modular it’s about timing, and if the timing isn’t right expect to either instruct for a period of time or try to fit in keeping current whilst working a normal job. Hope you don’t have a life getting in the way of the latter there.

Theres a lot of courses that offer 0-hero and people are willing to pay and they do succeed. It means those who can’t pay take alternate /modular paths, nothing wrong with that of course, but so much is geared for integrated/MPL schemes. People should know that they may take years to get where a peer that can pay may do it in 2ish years.

Ryanair, Wizz, Jet2, BA and CityFlyer do not worry about where you trained. Instructing will get your foot in the door with companies like Eastern and Loganair. I know a few 250hr modular pilots that have been taken on by Aurigny amongst other airlines straight from training. Air Tanker occasionally take low hour pilots, some come from the modular instructing route. Think it’s important to broaden horizons away from just airline flying initially, but also be cautious not to get stuck in a rut flying smaller aircraft around for specialist operators, unless you want to make a career out of it of course. TUI will take applications occasionally from people with 500 hours of flying no matter what, though admittedly having 500 hours on a multi crew jet/TP with minimum MTOW of 10tonnes will cut a chunk of competition out. There is a heavy bias towards integrated students, there always has been unfortunately. Other aviation jobs can help, though it’s by no means a guarantee. What working in the industry does is provide contacts, and those contacts can materialise into jobs that sometimes barely get advertised.

When it comes to life though, I have to agree. Sacrifices do have to be made. Instructing is a great way to get a foot in the door, it’s also highly rewarding. Only do it if you want to give something back. Do not use it purely as a way to build hours, it’s not fair on your students.

Yeah and I think this is really important to note for those that are looking to get into it; For the bigger companies there aren’t actually too many of them. I think if you are looking to spend 100k + on very niche qualifications consider the size of the market by the number of companies alone. It was awhile ago now but I ran through a list on the CAA website for how many AoCs there were and there was a 100 or so, a good number but some are held by the same company.

and 100% right regarding instructing, unfortunately it might be one of the only options available after training and if you can’t/won’t instruct you limit your options.

Press-onitus I believe is the term. And that is also not the attitude to have in an airliner either.