Is integrated training necessary for airline employment?
 

Hello all,

I would really, really like to become an airline pilot. At the moment I am studying towards my PPL with a small flying club. Unfortunately, I am not in a position to afford to train full-time with the likes of CTC Wings, Oxford Aviation, etc. My question is: Do people who train part time, doing each licence as they go along, have just as much chance of becoming an airline pilot as those that are able to do a full-time, integrated programme? I ask this question because I am really scared that I am going to do all this training and end up jobless. I'm working 7 days a week at the moment and plan to do so for the next couple of years to make this dream happen. I'd be gutted if I got all my licenses and ended up with no job so would appreciate any feedback you can offer.

Many thanks in advance.

Is integrated training necessary for airline employment?
 

Everyone has their own opinion on this and you will find extensive info in modular vs integrated thread with hundreds of posts.

Basic 2 camps are:

Integrated: airline approach, more likely to get a shot at an airline interview due to links/exclusivity with airline hr departments (contested).

Modular: significantly cheaper, money saved can be used for type rating / further training.

Everyone has their own opinion and no one can give you a definitive answer. I suggest putting the kettle on, and sitting down with the thread then drawing your own conclusions. Good luck!

Hi Dan

Welcome to PPrune.

I think this question has been discussed at great length on this forum already, and many will tell you different things based entirely on their own experiences. Here's my opinion for what it's worth.

Personally I doubt you have an equal chance of getting into an airline by going the modular route over the integrated route (which is what you're talking about). That's not to say that it can't be done, because it can; and people do. But I imagine there are far more guys at the front of commercial jets who went the integrated route than the modular route. However, I stand to be corrected if anyone can supply evidence to the contrary.

If a jet job is really what you want then you might be interested in some of the tagged schemes that are on the go at the moment? For instance, the Easyjet MPL has just launched (although it would appear that you'd have to raise the capital yourself for that one). Alternatively the BA FPP should open again later in the year, and you could take advantage of the BA guaranteed loan scheme to fund your training via that route.

In any case, if you love flying then you should keep doing the PPL. It'll be a solid first step prior to going down either route, and a great deal of fun too.
Good luck whichever way you go! :)

Wow, can I just say a really big thank you! :) I've never been one for forums, in part due to their general negativity. However, I am amazed by how thoughtful and detailed your responses are. I really appreciate your feedback. Of course I would welcome others opinion as well, but I just had to say thanks as I'm genuinely surprised. I'll keep waiting for a little bit to see what others post and reply later after taking on board everyone's comments.

Integrated courses show airlines you can absorb x amount of material in a defined period of time... If you complete the same course content as a modular student over 5 years, what have you really proven? Will you take 5 times longer to complete a type rating if they hire you?

If you can do the modular route full time over 12-18 months with just the one training provider, and save yourself 25%, then do that. And don't put on your cv whether you're modular/integrated...

As you've already mentioned, many airlines are using the likes of CTC for their low hour cadet requirements. You could write a list of airlines who take on independent unaffiliated cadets... I can't think of any off the top of my head.

Once past your first airline job, all of this becomes irrelevant. They just want to see a license and verified stamped logbook. But always stay current on type, whatever stage you are at. Enjoy the journey!

The simple answer is that very, very, few airlines are interested in people with fresh licences and two hundred odd hours. They aren't now and they never have been. The exception to this is those airlines that have cadet programmes as part of their recruitment intake. Most of those airlines contract with one or more training schools to provide the basic and intermediate portions of that ab-initio training. The successful graduates then complete their advanced training with the partner airline. Of course the basic and intermediate training is full time, integrated and specific to a small handful of training schools.

Beyond these cadet programmes, you can work your way up through career advancement. Many people over the years have worked as flying instructors and in general aviation, and then made their way up through the "stepping stone" jobs and second and third tier commercial operators until they have the broad brush experience that the first tier airlines generally stipulate as a minimum for direct entry recruitment. Those figures vary from company to company but again, broadly you are looking at around 2000-3000 hours with 500+ hours of turbine time (turboprop or jet.)

The reality that has evolved over the last 15 years and continues to increase in significance, is that there are very large numbers of pilots with CPL's (or fATPL's) these days. In the last decade the basic requirement for CPL issue in the UK (in most cases) dropped from 700 hours to around 250 hours. The reasons for this I have explained many times and a quick history search should save me having to repeat them again. However, the reality is that the floodgates were opened to thousands and thousands of prospective CPL aspirants. Coupled with a contraction in the availability of "stepping stone" jobs, this left whole swathes of fresh CPL/IR holders in a vary crowded arena holding very perishable licences. The results of that you can read in the many thousands of threads on the subject.

At around the same time that all these licence regulatory changes were happening, two other notable things happened. The first was the introduction of age legislation that quickly served to removed the early retirement profile for many established airline pilots. This gave many pilots (and their employers the airlines,) another 5-10 years of breathing space. The second event was the expansion of the airline cadet programmes. The result was, (coupled with a long global economic downturn,) that a huge swathe of airline entry level potential, that previously would have been satisfied by the 2000-3000 hour career advancers, was now being satisfied by the maturing cadet programmes. A cadet will only take 36 months to be at the 2000 hour+ level and of course almost all of that time is turbine time. Not only turbine time, but type experience and airline experience in exactly the measure the airline wants.

This has resulted in significantly reduced entry opportunities for career advancers and career changers (ex-military pilots moving to a civil environment, and experienced pilots abroad, looking to return to the UK, by way of just two examples.) For the fresh licence holder outside of these programmes that has resulted in pressure from below, and pressure from above, culminating in a great many people being squeezed out of the marketplace.

So you can see why a simple answer to your question is not as straightforward as you might hope. With a fresh CPL/IR most airlines with cadet programmes are simply not going to entertain you unless it is through their cadet route. Many others will simply say come back when you have enough of the right experience, and a very few may let you compete for their entry level recruitment in what is an extremely crowded and corpse laden field. The "stepping stones" are still out there, but the incumbents (they will be along shortly!) are hanging on to them for grim death, and almost everybody in that crowded field is looking for a way out.

777X with respect, you are wrong about airlines not being interested how you trained once you have experience. BA are very open nowadays about only being interested in people who trained the integrated way. That's a fact, modular guys there now are those who have joined before the game changed a few years back. Now we can argue over the rights and wrongs of this until the cows come home (and I personally think it's wrong) but that's how it is.

Isn't that simply because BA took a decision in 2011 to stop direct entry pilot recruitment and make a 'mutually beneficial' financial deal with an integrated training organisation?

777X? The notion that modular pilots have less ability because they took longer to get the licence is utterly nonsensical! Conversely, some might say that integrated pilots are the lesser because they emerge with less experience having crammed all the learning into fewer flights.

The reality is that there are fewer opportunities for modular students because airlines have reduced costs by simplifying recruitment avenues. This has the additional benefit that they get a financial inducement to stick to certain training organisations.

At a higher level, airlines such as NAS and TOM have realised that you can recruit fully trained pilots from the likes of FR just by offering normal remuneration. :rolleyes:

Mikehotel152 no it's been a policy of theirs since (in relative terms) long before the introduction of the FPP.

They haven't made a decision to stop Direct Entry at all, it is just on hiatus at the moment as they manage the crew levels after the BMI integration. They have already committed to FPP, they haven't committed to Direct Entry that's the difference.

In 2011 they were recruiting Direct Entry at the same time as opening the FPP in anticipation of a need for greater numbers of pilots. Then the BMI takeover happened and the plans went awry.

Is integrated training necessary for airline employment?
 

If DEP started again at BA, are they really going to turn down an applicant from say Thomson or Monarch with a few thousand hours in house experience because they trained modular at Oxford 10 years ago?

Well I went modular, I have a little aerial photography job so at least i'm working. But before this I worked at a sim with a few OAA and CTC guys, they had been out of school a year or so, then they all got a call from their respective flight schools and they have all been placed with easyjet. I haven't even had a happy birthday email from the school i trained at.

My two cents.

I was modular and was very lucky to get a major airline to pay my TR. But if I was starting out now and I could afford it then I'd go integrated with one if the big 3 FTOs. As much as I don't like it they very much have exclusive deals with the airlines. The self improver route is on it's way out unfortunately. There are a few TP operators out there but it's just a matter of time before they tie themselves up with one of the big 3.

I don't think it is. And there is major pressure by some airlines to try and make it happen.

I have a feeling one of the big three is in trouble, just search around the forums and you will see that they are having problems.

They have been saying the modular method was going out ever since JAR came along. And to be honest they need it to go away for the current situation to continue with the size.

They have shot themselves in the foot to be honest with the cadet schemes because before there was a chance after training you got an interview but the majority of shiny jobs now are linked to the cadetship. So the majority of the self sponsored are in the same situation as the modular students post qualifying.

I'm employed towards the bottom end of the self improver route.

Have many modular and integrated friends either in the same position or worse, with some in a better position. There isn't a correlation that I can personally see among the people I know as to whether one is better than the other.

Tagged schemes obviously are doing the best for employment.

I can confirm from someone who was high up in one of the 'big 3' that this particular 'third' is in big trouble.

Sorry I meant to say I would do integrated but on a tagged scheme. Speculatively spending £100k without a job lined up afterwards these days is madness. You could call me a hypocrite as that's exactly what I did with my training but I did it in chunks, acing for each bit, and I never had more debt than I was happy to pay off should the whole thing work out. This attitude is not an option where you have a £1000 a month loan repayment.

The problem for the modular guys is that there is an ever dwindling list of possible employers. BMI is gone, Easy is tied in with wih CTC, Ryanair have taken on loads of integrated, Flybe are overcrewed, Aer Lingus and BA are running their own cadet schemes and any DE pilots must have time on a type. Those airlines probably account for about 90% of the annual jobs in the UK and Ireland alone. Also many of the charter outfits are either tied into CTC or can get any number of experienced pilots by offering market rates and industry standard T&CS so lure them across from a certain loco as pointed out by Mike.

That really leaves the small niche operators where competition will be tough for very few jobs. Quite possibly the machine you end up flying could pigeonhole you for the rest of your career and limit progression.

Essentially - two options as others have outlined too.

1) Integrated. If your going down this route, get on a tagged scheme. RHS Jet, large initial outlay, but large payoff and quicker access to LHS ultimately.

2) Modular. Cheap initially (by comparison). Takes years, not months. You may well get 'stuck' on TP's (assuming you get a job at all). A perhaps richer experience in terms of the wide range of flying and experiences you will have but boy do you pay for it in terms of long term financial health.

Using case 1 - In say 10 years you could be a Captain in a decent jet job assuming your initial Airline was a success, stable, etc.

Using case 2 - In say 10 years you might be lucky enough to be in a jet job after 3 years of instructing/GA, 2 years TP FO, 2 Years TP CP, now year 3 Jet FO at the end of a very long command upgrade list. Or you could be still stuck on a TP wondering what went wrong!

These are obviously just made up figures but I feel demonstrate that the initial type you get onto after training is vital in determining your long term career health these days.

For the record, I am in camp 2 and yes I am feeling stuck on TP's! I have been flying for 5 years professionally now and I haven't got a pot to pi$$ in... I know guys who did P2F and are now well into the command process at large low cost jet outfits, new cars, buying houses etc. Go figure!

It's a sad state of affairs. Non-flying friends can barely believe it when I tell them what I am earning! An ex-housemate recently started a TEMP job that she got by just asking a mate and her basic is higher than mine!

I am presently witnessing ex-cadet command promotions at the 6.5 year mark. This typically coincides with the conclusion of training loan attrition. A big jump in net income for those successful ex-cadets. You can never tell what is waiting around the corner, but I would expect to see this time interval fall to around 5 years over the next 24-36 months.

there was 1263 CPL's issued in 2012-2013.

Ryanair took the majority of Modular and Integrated last year.

Realistically mod training schools only put through 15 a year each on average and there is something like 20 schools. So about 300 pilots.

Doesn't matter how you train the market is vastly over supplied.

My 5 cents...

I just got my first airline gig this year with Air New Zealand.

i trained modular, took me 10 months to do my commercial with 151hrs total time on test day so despite what some people say, modular can be much quicker than integrated.

I worked as an instructor for 4 years (managed to get full time jobs!) and had 2300hrs TT before getting the airline break.

Best time of my life, but tough as well and many of my mates didnt make it through. Before getting my first job I was shovelling horse manure and fixing simulators just to pay the bills..

If you really love flying then nothing compares to doing it for a job and you will be able to put in the hard yards it takes! If you dont, the rewards just wont justify the hard work and you will just be miserable.


Best of luck buddy!

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make but there's no such thing as "modular" or "integrated" in New Zealand, and thank God that this horrible plague of selling the RHS to 200 hour rich kids hasn't caught on there yet :ok:

It's a purely European concept and Air NZ (like most sensible airlines on earth outside of Europe), require their applicants to have around 2000 TT before they will even consider them for the lowest of 19 seat turboprop FO jobs.

"like most sensible airlines on earth outside of Europe), require their applicants to have around 2000 TT before they will even consider them for the lowest of 19 seat turboprop FO jobs."

Well that depends on what you deem to be a "sensible" airline. Emirates, who I would say are fairly sensible offer young UAE nationals fresh out of flight school widebody jets. Qatar and Etihad also offer shorthaul positions straight out of flight school. They also accept international low hour cadets with varying requirements, for example a degree is needed for etihad and qatar have their wings programme. Oman air also run a similar cadet programme. United require 1,000 hours TT and Delta require 1,200 TT. I would consider all these airlines to be sensible.

Luke, i'm sorry to be picky but I have to disagree with the quoted statement. Now even within the eu, many flag carriers have also switched to this method. BA, Air France, Lufthansa, Aer Lingus etc. I would consider them all to be airlines of higher quality.

Actually, theyre giving interviews to people with 700hrs atm and also as a side note, the Beech crews are generally the more experienced ones at the moment as they will upgrade to command quicker.

Does vary with the ways of thr industry...

So far this year I have already come across 3 CPL/IR from Integrated schools. They had all finished their training over 2 years ago and all had done no other flying bar renewals. Two of them had paid a fortune for their integrated school to renew. One used someone local and saved about a grand.

All of them were bitter, all of them new that they where unemployable and all of them had the sense to realize this and add SEP ratings to their license. Why an earth a responsible training provider doesn't insist on this I have no idea. Two of them went onto add FI ratings to there license and are currently working in that field.

Now admittedly I am only a sample size of one. But these guys were not sponsored so if your not in such a scheme. I would have a long think about it because you are paying well over the odds only too end up in a position no better and in fact in their cases worse off than those who go modular.

mickey that's exactly the types which the rest of us are seeing so many of outside the shiny world of jets.

There are hundreds of them if not thousands. None of them have a practical first career to survive on.

It doesn't take you to meet many of them until you have met millions worth of training which is completely useless and more than likely will never be used.

I met one lad recently who had on top off his training a A320 rating and a 737 rating and 500 hours P2F and was now an FI to build hours.

I was gob smacked I was looking at a quarter of million euros worth of training and he was unemployable, TP operators won't touch him because he would be off to jets in a flash with a sniff of a job came up. And he couldn't get near the jets because everyone is taking cadets. He was spouting some pish as well that his latest plan was to get a biz jet rating.

Mad_jock, hearing this makes me happy. I hope he never finds a job, that doing the p2f has blacklisted him forever and that he suffers financially his entire adult life for doing such a selfish act!

A big thank you to all of you for your comments. I have taken all your comments on board and have decided to follow my heart and continue to train via the modular route. It's interesting to see there are some success stories but also a real shame to hear that some people, despite investing thousands of pounds, are struggling to find employment. My brain is still telling me to stop and find an easier career to get into, but then again anything that's worth having in life is never going to be easy. Otherwise everyone would be doing it. So yes, right or wrong, I'm going to give it my best shot and hope for the best. Thank you everyone for your help.