what do you expect from p2f?
 

a paid job?

you must really fix your head, who will give you a paid job when the market is filled with idiotic pilots who pay airlines to fly their aircraft.


are you dumb? or uneducated European citizen who don't know what economy means....

buy your self a 320 simulator and go play the pilot.

better:get a normal job and start to feed yourself correctly....

are you frustrated about something? why uneducated european people!? it's quite funny how the concept of p2f has got deep roots in america (and still widely used too) and very popular in SE Asia, yet it is always 'blame someone else' and forget reality.

like most of people here i do not support p2f, quite the opposite.

But let's be honest about it: p2f wasn't invented few days ago, but in the very late 90s! because of LCCs expansion and more recently the weak economy (i'm pretty sure people would blame europe for this) p2f agencies, type rating organisations and airlines themselves have simply capitalised on it... it has become a very lucrative business!

and whose fault is that? everyone's! all pilots are responsible (including myself) for letting this phenomenon devolping and growing! It should have been stopped very long time ago but everyone was too busy enjoying themself... living the dream without thinking/looking after the future generations.

and now? it's too late, not many options at this stage. The whole industry need an overhaul, starting back from basics... it's the attitude of 'everyone can fly today, from c152 to big shiny jet, as cheap as possible, epaulettes/uniform syndrome, get rich overnight etc etc' and all this bollocks that have to go! then maybe people would stop paying/cheating to 'jump the queue'!

you're right, peope should work. Earn their experience (respect and money) then step-by-step moving up, not p2f. But we need first to understandep why the :mad: we are in this situation and how to move on.. insulting new (desperate) pilots will not solve anything.


PS. before flying the 320, I spent years as flight instructor and more recently as flight examiner. Several times i've been told my SE or ME piston hours (1700+ TT) were worthless... that i need jet time and so on... it took me nearly 5 years of :mad: hard work (and luck of course) to land a proper jet job.

Check your history--P2F has zero roots in the USA. Not a chief pilot anywhere would accept someone with the background. I ve been in US GA and airlines, done hiring boards and I pretty sure I know whereof I speak. It's fine to acquire the FAA license, but not pay to fly. Gulfstream was one until their grads started killing people.

P2f is not authorized in USA.... Not in part 121&135

Explain me why? Did the faa say it s illegal to sell line training and turn an airline to a freaking flight school.... ;-)

Haha it was invented there... Eagle Jet have been selling 727/Be1900 etc hours in the US for years!

Sorry but it looks like it is still there: Eagle Jet International, Inc. :uhoh:

no Ryanair you are right.it was created by ej 15years ago.when the faa knew it they put some conditions with INS.and at the end it was only on single pilot airplane which make your double command time useless.this eagle doesn't explain you....

a few airlines have tried but lost their certificate at the end.guys behind p2f are crooks....the whole industry is run by lies,scams,...if you don't see it its because you are still a momy boy.:-) dreaming yo fly a big jet....

I am an airline pilot at a very well known US regional and have previously worked in recruitment for a number of airlines. You are completely wrong, Ameriflight, through EagleJet, offer Part 135 P2F courses on almost all of their fleet. I had the misfortune to fly with a 'graduate' of such a programme only a few months ago, he was hopeless. P2F is still alive and kicking in the good ol' U S of A....unfortunately.

a fa make more than a fo.
even toilet cleaner or baggage handlers makes more than one of these traitors of p2f .
they call themselves flight officer....after 6months ground officer or unemployed officer lol

you can be anything in this world as long you pay people to do a job which suppose to be paid.you can even become an airline plot.

when I say this to my friends, they simply don't believe me...only in cinema and aviation you see these lower than ..... bags.

Screwit

If you're going to use the English language to raise your issues at least use it properly.

are you sure about this? 1996, eaglejet in Miami ring any bells?

another question for all pilots. What were we doing when p2f was becoming a major threat to out T&Cs? and what about the various pilot unions?!

it's a disgrace nothing serious has been done to kill p2f. There's no point on blaming those kids who just completed their licences... what option do they have when most of the airlines want TR + 500hrs on type as a minimum to even apply?! the problem has to be sorted at the root!

that's absolutely correct.500h just to apply. doesn't mean you get the job,instead you will be,maybe,invited for a selection with 100 other desperate pilots looking for the position ,and these monkeys are even ready to pay more money just to get the job.

in fact , this is is a farce...some guys will say they can get a job in Saudi or else, oh please stop the crap,they don't hire guys with 500h from Europe and if they do ,it s guys who have double nationality...

why do you think they went from national to jaa then to easa...in 5 years they will change the system again... faa in contrary Is still here after 100 years. I have both.

even my friends are all converting to FAA to get a job.really you guys make me laugh with your 500h jet time And you can not even get decent job in a fast food....and the worse,is your persist to believe there will be a pilot shortage and an airline will offer you a paid position.just look how you have been brainwashed by this euro dream which has made you just an unemployed pilots or pay to fly monkey.

When I was starting out on my training many moons ago there were various p2f adverts in the back of the flying mags. All mostly Kingair and small regional jets and using various loopholes in the FAA licensing system. From memory they involved a small hourly payment by the wannabe. No work permit required as you weren't technically employed since you didn't get paid. Also if memory serves me right you didn't even need a type nor instrument rating as you could "fly" on the captains privileges. Many europeans got seduced into these schemes not fully understanding the implications for legally logging hours without a type rating.

Oh and all in the good ole US of A. In fact Florida mainly.

It doesn't matter where this started, it's wrong, pure and simple. Any clown can be an airline pilot nowadays as long as he's stupid enough to put himself or his parents into £90,000 of debt! I fly as a captain on a med-heavy jet and witnessed varying levels of ability but even the worst UK mil pilot is better than most civvy trained guys. This penny pinching regard to training and the airlines washing their hands of all training costs will bite back. I don't want to see deaths due to pilot error but it seems that is what it will take for this problem to be looked at by the powers that be.

I'll call bull**** on that!

I fly as captain on medium jets and work for a very enlightened employer who takes its FO intake from a wide variety of backgrounds.

Most ex military guys I fly with are obviously great pilots, but from what I have seen, the greatest variable on quality is the individual, not the background. Putting most civvy pilots behind the worst ex military is a somewhat sweeping statement.

Perhaps I should have added "that I have experienced". Apologies for the generalisation but I can only speak from experience.

I'm not saying the standard of training is poor, it's just it's limited to the basics required. Money is the limiting factor and so a lot of scenarios are never seen until it happens for the first time when pilots are tired and weather is poor.
3 years of daily intensive military training added to the most rigourous selection process will always produce a better product than the bare minimum civilian training required. Especially when selection is based on the fact you have the TR we need right now. Yes I do have a chip on my shoulder and quite rightly so.

Disagree.

We obviously have had different experiences of RHS pilots and neither one view should be seen as correct/ incorrect. However, in my experience one or two ex military pilots have been really quite poor. (I don't have anything against ex-mil, as the vast majority are, of course, excellent).

I have seen 200 hour pilots cope better than high experienced military chaps. Would it be fair to say a lot of military training has no use whatsoever in a civilian airline environment? Would it also be fair to say a lot of skills highly prized in, say, military fast jet operations is positively frowned on by airlines?

Like I said earlier, I have seen new FOs from a range of backgrounds and have witnessed a range of talent from each.

I completely agree that any selection system based purely on ability to pay is not good, but I have also seen your quoted assertion above comprehensively disproven.

We've obviously had different experiences and yes you are correct a fast jet jock needs a little more time to get used to letting go of some of the flight deck responsibilities! However, when it comes to hands on flying ability, which I know is hardly required in modern airliners, military pilots are on the whole better. There maybe some aeros civvy guys with similar skills. Before you question the worth of hands on flying remember it increases a pilots capacity if less of his focus is on flying the aircraft. Plus in extreme situations those skills are invaluable.
I apologise that I've turned this thread into a Mil vs Civvy conflict. I'm more concerned about those brilliant military pilots who are leaving the RAF and can't get a place with a civilian outfit due to the current trend of pay to fly recruitment. Yes, they could pay for their own TR but, unlike those cadets, they will be married with kids and no bank of dad to call on.
I wonder if CTC would accept an application from one of them?

Just called CTC and apparently an experienced military pilot is overqualified!!!!!!?