These schemes have become a joke designed for the young, inexperienced (with life and money) and gullible types. Anybody with 3-4 years of real life working experience knows how hard it is to save, pay rent/mortgage etc and for this reason will not be interested. You youngun's, if you value the next 10 years of your life then don't fall for this rubbish. It's a life of debt and misery.

OAT could just as well source more of their APP graduates to TCA, so why this scheme? I'll tell you why, because it allows the airlines to stipulate a requirement for self risk takers who the airline can use as virtual slaves. Remember the contract states you only get the £1,000 loan repayment for as long as you stay with Excel, and that's 7 years!

I used to like OAT, heck I'm still studying ATPL long distance with them! but I can now see very clearly how they are colluding with some airlines to turn this industry in to something else.

Millions of schools out there teach just as well if not better than OAT. But I guess the airlines like OAT because they can provide the "right" kind of candidate.

Why is it that everytime Oxford, CTC etc gets mentioned I am reminded of the old 'Not the nine o'clock news' sketch about 'Thats Life'.
Quote" I think the BBC is just great and would happily sell my house and home for the service the BBC provide". I am sure some older Ppruners, like me, will remember this.

i dont think anyone will deny that this is one of the less attractive schemes. at least at Jerez you have your accommodation included in the cost!

i'm still applying though, i reckon that i can just about cover the costs. I'm guessing that stage two of the selection process is after the initial application form on the web?

this two day selection also requires us to pay for a night's accommodation? now that is really stingy!

anyway, thats all of the moaning from me!

does anyone have any info on how the selection process works exactly at oxford? or perhaps provide a link to an old thread?

I don't think you're bonded to TCA for 7 years - and I think you may possibly get a type rating thrown in that at no extra cost. Way I see it is if you're not bonded then surely make use of the £1k tax free a month, get some bigger repayments made on the loan over a shorter amount of time, and when you've built some hours over a year or two - apply to another airline and get a better salary. You'd be a winner that way and you'd already have less restraint from the loan compared with standard APPFO students. You'd also have thew ability to pay more per month on a lower amount!

No, this thread is titled 'New Sponsorship (ish) scheme OAT', not 'Once you have decided upon going integrated discuss the costs of sponsorship.' I see no problem with pointing out the true value (or not) of this scheme compared to any other scheme, or other method of getting to the same result that this scheme provides (potentially), ie a frozen ATPL, albeit with the 'possibility' of a job at the end of it. I see no mention of a type rating and or who pays for it, either directly or through 'self funded' reduction in salary etc. Don't try to stiffle debate about the merits of this scheme or not, which some people may find enlightening, or at least worth considering.

PP

Base is 4.5% in the UK.
Base is 2.25% - 2.5% in Euroland if you are borrowing from BBVA for Jerez (but remember currency risk is greater as a result to you).

Just being aware of what the costs are is all that we need here - to much of a fixation on the end goal blinds the judgement in both the integrated and modular routes.

Just bear in mind here that you won't be sitting about waiting for a job if you work hard - to enable earning quicker to repay your debt. Bear in mind he type rating point below - no answers from the provider have been given on that, so careful what you are getting into...

If you get to the level of stifling debate, then you either have an agenda, or are fixated - similar to the treatment some get if they ask a reasonable question on the military aircrew forum on joining the RAF. Don't let that happen here at your peril...

Just wondering, but how does the TCA scheme compare with CTC EZY.

It seems very similar in so far as the 7 year bond but they do offer conditional emplyment whereas (as far as im aware) CTC only cover for half the bond.

Any thoughts please??

Posted by Pilot Pete
Don't try to stiffle debate about the merits of this scheme or not, which some people may find enlightening, or at least worth considering.

Totally agree.
As pointed out earlier, most of the applicants to this scheme will be young and vastly inexperienced with these sums of money. I've been earning much more than the 'Cadet' salary for years now and there is never much left in the bank come the month's end (if any at all). And I buy the supermarket's own brand.
To a lot of these whipper-snappers, the loan is just a number. It'll sort itself out once I've got a job. How do I know this? Because that was me at uni. It took me 4 years of hard graft to pay that back, and it was a fraction of the amounts mentioned here.
Surely trying to prevent discussion of the financial aspects is to deny those who may not know the whole story from making a balanced decision.
It also shows that you don't have an answer to the very valid questions being asked and uncomfortable facts stated. Like these:
Fact: Base rate is 4.5% (ish). The interest payable really is that scary. (Note- you get to learn all about the base rate when you get a mortgage. Although that will not be for another 7 years for those selected)
Fact: Lost earnings is a factor which needs consideration. This is what made me go modular.
Q: No one has mentioned type rating of 20k. Who pays for that? (sombody suggested TCX might give it away. Arf!)
Q: Why does the candidate take out the loan AND recieve the 'benefit' of a reduced salary? Surely it's one or the other?
Fact: TCX FO salary: 31k rising to 37k after 3 years. Cadet salary: 20k probably rising at a similar rate (a generous assumption).
Q: You earn at least 11k per year less than standard FO salary for 7 years. Thats 77k. But hang on, my loan was only for 64k. Can I have my money back?
I could go on but I'm getting bored. My point is that it aint a great deal. And trying to prevent people from discussing it is not what this organ is about.
EK

Not sure if anyone has come across this yet? http://www.thomascookjobs.co.uk/USER...ot_salarie.htm

Gives a clear table of salaries including the cadet one. So if anyone can be bothered, you can work out exactly what you lose out on as a cadet against the size of the loan.

To quote from the Oxford Forums...

"..on this scheme your repayment is taken before you've been taxed whereas on the standard HSBC loan you make the repayment out of your post tax pay. therefore, the total cost of retraining you will actually LOSE from your salary every month will be £64,000 (total cost of training) x 0.6 (to account for tax efficiency) = £38400. Which divided over 84 months (7 years) = £457 per month. Which is less than the normal HSBC loan would cost over 11 years."

And also some info given by OATs MD...

Repayment of a loan from Gross salary compared to repayment of a loan from net salary is SIGNIFICANT by the rate of tax and NI that you pay on your salary.

At the lower rate of tax + NI:

To repay £1k from net earnings will cost you approximately £1,330 of your gross salary
To repay £1k from gross salary will cost you £1,000 of your gross salary

You can work out the multiples of savings @ £330 for yourself.

Yes you get a pre-training job offer with a great airline.

TCA fund the Type Rating.

You get to fly a B757 upon graduation.

You gain access to a prferred HSBC loan.


As much as we could argue all day over this and find better and cheaper ways to get to that RHS - you've to understand that it works out cheaper than being a self-sponsired student at Oxford. Most are going to take out the loan, so the additional benefits mean that they're one step ahead in repaying the loan quicker, in less time, and bagging more net pay at the end of it. For the majority of the years it's worth it - then you'll be laughing when you get remunerated for the experience gained whilst you stayed on the Cadet salary. I don't think you could lose out either way whether you did this scheme or you didnt!

So, you get a pre-training job offer? Well, you get a job offer which states that IF they have a vacancy when you qualify then you MAY get a job offer. IF however something changes the economical/ business position of Thomas Cook UK then we reserve the right to NOT employ you.

I have nothing against TCUK, I have worked for them and they are a fine bunch with high standards, BUT their German (parent company) management didn't miss a trick after 9/11 and decided to put in a contract MD to "cut to the bone" with regards to cost (and I quote) "save the airline", which transpired to be a very convenient excuse to try to lower salaries (BALPA fought that one off), lay off hundreds of cabin crew and backroom staff and attempt to demote 55 captains and get rid of 45 F/Os. I was one of them who got laid off. So be VERY careful believing that a 'conditional' job offer means you are 'guaranteed' employment at the end of this scheme, it does not. It means they want their cake and they want to eat it, with you taking all the risk and paying out of your own pocket.

So, TCUK fund the type rating do they? If you start on a REDUCED salary, who do you consider to be paying for the type rating? I know who I consider it to be and it is not the employer..................

You get to fly a 757 on graduation. Great carrot, appealing to the 'boy' in us all. A fine aeroplane, but keep EMOTION out of serious financial decisions.;)

And you gain access to a preferred HSBC loan? The carrots just keep getting bigger! Where do I sign?:)



I am not trying to bellitle anything. What I am trying to do is pass on the experience of several years in the industry, having worked for the company mentioned, flown the aircraft 'dangled' and having been through the incredibly stressful situation of thinking I was going to lose it all post 9/11 when there were NO OTHER JOBS going flying aeroplanes in the UK. BE VERY CAREFUL committing yourself to so much debt and relying on a piloting job as your only way of repaying it. This industry is so cyclical that IF there is a downturn (sorry, WHEN the next downturn occurs), you had better hope that you don't have huge debts and you have some other form of earning at least what your piloting salary was.......7 years in this industry is plenty to have experienced a downturn and remember, when one comes it affects ALL the employers, not just your current one.

Eyes open, emotion off and brain engaged to 'max sense' before you sign on the dotted line, that's all I preach.

As ever though, if you go for it I wish you good luck.

PP

Edited to add this final jaw dropping quote You what? I despair of anyone joining this industry who believes that! For God's sake start seeing through the marketing tripe that is being pedalled and listen to those who give a balanced opinion regarding the economics of this decision as well as those with some experience of how airlines operate. This scheme is stacked in favour of them, not you. You are getting NOTHING from them. They are getting you by the short and curlies, have you paying for the training, the type rating and screwing you over for 7 years too! If you can accept that then fine, sign up, but stop trying to make out what a great deal it is for evryone!

Whether it gives you a better chance (guaranteed??!!) of getting a job or not - I'd rather save my £80k+, avoid the 7 years on cadet salary, go modular and take my chances of getting a job! At least then if I don't get one, I only have about £20k to pay back and can do that off my current salary without having to starve or remortgage the flat :} I don't understand why anyone would want to go for this scheme, but good luck to anyone who tries.

Go do your homework

Bank of England Base rate is 4.5%

Current Variable rate mortgage 'best buys' are around 6.5% you will not find a loan cheaper than this.

Pilot Pete,

With all due respect, everyone is aware the offer is conditional. No airline in its right mind will make an absolute offer and as OAT made clear last year, in the unlikely event that TCX goes tits up and no job is on offer then you will join the rest of the OAT pilot pool. I would guess since you have already proven yourself to be in the upper 5% of all OAT candidates just to get on the TCX scheme you would then be very well situated to get a seat on any of the other airlines that OAT supplies pilots for. For some people this may even be preferable! A conditional job offer is still better than no offer at all, which is what 99.9% of all other modular and integrated students have.

In the same discussions last year I said the same thing. We can poo-poo the scheme all we like, but for a great many people funding for even a modular course is just not possible. For others the age limits of standard schemes also cut them out. Here is an offer that provides a way around both those those problems.

The cadet salary is certainly modest, but shows quite clear progression and after 3 years is respectable. In another 4 years and on £33.5K your entire training loan is paid off. I'm sure it would be possible to cut a year or two off that with a more frugal lifestyle.

From what I understand you're not bonded for seven years - it's upto you if you make use of the repayments. RE: Type rating - it seems like the deductions from gross salary go only towards repayment of the loan and no more is taken away from you to fund a TR.

I think the best thing in all of this is wait until last years TCX chaps graduate and get them to write down the ACTUAL figures so we can all see exactly what is the correct answer. I see what you're saying, but they wouldn't run these schemes if the APP course was better financially...

Dave

It's not TCUK going t*ts up that should be the main concern, it's the likelyhood of an economic/ aviation downturn during your 7 years, which IMHO is much more likely.

Look at the aviation market today. It is bouyant, probably more bouyant than it has been for arguably 10-15 years. It's a great time to be training, for sure, as with the projected pilot requirements for virtually all the airlines are huge over the coming years.

But it has been like this forever and a day, boom and bust. My point is that in 7 years time you could be regretting the huge debt and no job due to a massive downturn. Just be warned and make sure that any choice you make is in the fullness of the light of day and not on some whim or because there is a 757 dangling at the end of it or some other such marketting statement.

PP

Donadar

You are falling for the marketting too. You may not pay up front for the type, but they get their money back through the reduced salary, which in my mind means YOU PAY. Look at the REAL costs to you as an individual compared to what else is out there, not just because they SAY they are paying for the type!!

OK, so you are not bonded, but if you go elsewhere you end up paying for the loan from net salary, so I can't believe that they haven't done their sums to ensure that every man and his dog don't go elsewhere after year 2 because they can be better off! Prove me wrong.

"OK, so you are not bonded, but if you go elsewhere you end up paying for the loan from net salary, so I can't believe that they haven't done their sums to ensure that every man and his dog don't go elsewhere after year 2 because they can be better off! Prove me wrong."

A lot of CTC Ezy cadets have left Ezy after 6months - 1 year and gone BA DEP.....They are definately better off!!

Its another marketing/tax fiddle.

You don't get anthing for nothing in aviation.

There have been plenty of these schemes over the years and the only thing which is pretty constant is that the student doesn't get anything for nothing and in some cases gets sold into bonded labour for a significant length of time.

If anything goes wrong with your training / thompson change there mind. You end up with a crippling loan to pay off.

femalewannabie has completely the right idea it just shows how the marketing can be used to sell excatly the same product with a bit of spin on it.

Usually they way they say it works is ( And this is a general comment nothing to do with the above course its used in quite a few industrys)

The plus point that they will tell you about paying it back is that the money will be paid back by giving you a reduced salary so you won't pay NI or tax on the money repayed. Basically money will get shifted around from a loan to yourself which will be payed to the company who is sponsering you. They will pay the company training you, of course claiming back vat and offseting the costs against corporation tax so in real terms it will actually cost them 50% of what we would pay. You of course won't get to see a penny of this money. Then they will pay you a reduced salary thus saving again on employers NI contributions. So if say your training was a 60k loan you would have at least another 20k on top of that in interest over 10 years. The company would have actually got you trained up for about 20k and say another 20k(or less) for a type rating plus all the other bits and bobs.

So the bank gets 20k in interest. The training company get there usual profit plus what ever they make on the increase in demand for charging for assment days. And the company sponsoring gets 20k profit. The cunning way for the company is to actually is to find a reason for not giving you a job at the end before any of the type rating stuff. 15 people going for this with only 50% making the course could make you quarter of a million in the space of 18 months for no capitial outlay.

Agreed if you went elsewhere you'd be paying from your net salary after tax and NI - but then again, you'd be on a F/O salary and in a much better financial position to do this? After all it's what you chaps have been banging on about through most of this thread - that you're better off financially...

That's the general jist of what people are saying - you'd be better off not going this route. I think one thing you have to do is compare it with the APPFO course and NOT others on the market - remember they're not saying it's a new course of training - it's the APPFO with more benefits than your normal self-sponsored chap has on APPFO. Assuming you both take a loan out - one takes it out for £60k and the other for £50k - one has a conditional offer, the other doesn't. When it comes to paying it off, the chap who got TCA is laughing because as suggested - move to another airline as a DEP with experience and your net income should well cover the monthly repayments and you're earning more. Then again, if you disagree with the last statement, you're shooting yourself in the foot saying you're worse off.... :ok:

And just for the record, I won't be applying.