Military Pilot to Civilian Flying?
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Military Pilot to Civilian Flying?
Would a Fleet Air Arm/ RAF flying background (6yr ss com) be an advantage to airline selection?
Historically in the past ex-mod boys/girls have gone on to commercial flying, but is that still the case?
Would a ex mod require to re-train PPL,IR,CPL ATPL etc?
Cheers
Historically in the past ex-mod boys/girls have gone on to commercial flying, but is that still the case?
Would a ex mod require to re-train PPL,IR,CPL ATPL etc?
Cheers
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A military (flying) background is a great advantage - once you have accrued enough experience to be valuable. That'll take you around 8-10 years, on average, after which you must either have a retirement option (which will carry some financial benefits) or you may resign (which may not). The amount of re-qualifying you will have to undertake will depend on your Service experience; obviously an ex-C17 pilot will need less retraining than an AH-64 pilot, assumimg the aim is to fly airliners. No doubt BEagle will chip in with the latest exemptions available to Service pilots.
Many, if not most, military pilots move on to civilian aviation at the end of their engagement. That is unlikely to change anytime soon, though the overall numbers are decreasing with the contraction of the Services generally.
Scroggs
Many, if not most, military pilots move on to civilian aviation at the end of their engagement. That is unlikely to change anytime soon, though the overall numbers are decreasing with the contraction of the Services generally.
Scroggs
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The experience you gain may be advantageous - but dont know if being a military pilot will appeal to some airline's.
The reason's being that if say yr ex fast jet or chopper's then i know of at least 5-6 UK airlines that will not accept you as they feel that being only 1-2 crew operation this is not condusive to CRM in the cockpit/and with the c/crew due to the fact that you being used to being a one man operation more or less. - BUT there are also several airlines that will actively recruit from the military, One of the largest being Brittania airways where it is more or less a military flying club with 80-90% of the pilot's being ex services.
hope this helps
W.G
The reason's being that if say yr ex fast jet or chopper's then i know of at least 5-6 UK airlines that will not accept you as they feel that being only 1-2 crew operation this is not condusive to CRM in the cockpit/and with the c/crew due to the fact that you being used to being a one man operation more or less. - BUT there are also several airlines that will actively recruit from the military, One of the largest being Brittania airways where it is more or less a military flying club with 80-90% of the pilot's being ex services.
hope this helps
W.G
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Sorry, Whispering Giant, but I think your 'facts' are wrong! There certainly was a time, 10 to 15 years ago or more, when the majority of Britannia's new hires were ex-military. That is most certainly not the case now - there aren't enough ex-military people, for one thing!
Of the major UK airlines, Virgin probably has the highest proportion of ex-mil pilots at the moment. Again, that is the result of past recruiting and doesn't really reflect today's situation - again, thanks to the lack of ex-mil pilots on the market. Virgin also welcomes ex-single-seat pilots and helo pilots - with enough hours. I'd agree that many airlines are a bit cagey about folk with just helo time, especially when it's a buyers' market, but most are very happy to take ex-FJ mates.
b025053, be very careful what information you trust. WG's input seems to be based on rumour and gossip - and I wonder if he may have been turned down by one or more airlines in favour of, in his opinion, ex-military pilots? Pilot Pete is a pilot with Britannia who meets and talks to his colleagues and is very aware of the changing backgrounds of his airline's new recruits as the outside world changes, as his past posts have shown. I am an ex-miltary pilot now working for Virgin Atlantic. Through this site, and being in touch with Virgin's (and other airlines') recruiting staff, I can assure you that my opinion is based on research and knowlege. Your choice who you believe.
Of the major UK airlines, Virgin probably has the highest proportion of ex-mil pilots at the moment. Again, that is the result of past recruiting and doesn't really reflect today's situation - again, thanks to the lack of ex-mil pilots on the market. Virgin also welcomes ex-single-seat pilots and helo pilots - with enough hours. I'd agree that many airlines are a bit cagey about folk with just helo time, especially when it's a buyers' market, but most are very happy to take ex-FJ mates.
b025053, be very careful what information you trust. WG's input seems to be based on rumour and gossip - and I wonder if he may have been turned down by one or more airlines in favour of, in his opinion, ex-military pilots? Pilot Pete is a pilot with Britannia who meets and talks to his colleagues and is very aware of the changing backgrounds of his airline's new recruits as the outside world changes, as his past posts have shown. I am an ex-miltary pilot now working for Virgin Atlantic. Through this site, and being in touch with Virgin's (and other airlines') recruiting staff, I can assure you that my opinion is based on research and knowlege. Your choice who you believe.
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Scrogg's - Sorry i have to disagree with you there - this is NOT based on rumour.
Having got extensive airline experience and can say that this is the case with most of the operators i have worked with - BUT as i said it does depend on what type of military flying background you have - a airline is more likely to take on someone who has flown large multi engine military a/c eg Herc/VC10/Tristar etc rather than a pilot who has flown a/c such as Jaguar/Tornado etc.
One thing on which i will agree on is that the main carrier's that employ ex military guy's - the largest are Brittania/Virgin and Monarch.
So on this subject i think we will have to agree to disagree.
Having got extensive airline experience and can say that this is the case with most of the operators i have worked with - BUT as i said it does depend on what type of military flying background you have - a airline is more likely to take on someone who has flown large multi engine military a/c eg Herc/VC10/Tristar etc rather than a pilot who has flown a/c such as Jaguar/Tornado etc.
One thing on which i will agree on is that the main carrier's that employ ex military guy's - the largest are Brittania/Virgin and Monarch.
So on this subject i think we will have to agree to disagree.
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W.G
The 80-90% figure is unrealistic. I have experience of jmc, Air2000 and Britannia. All of these airlines have a large number of ex military pilots, but none of them has 90% that is for sure.
I think the 'desireable' pecking order for ex military is as you state, but I don't think these airlines make too much of a distinction; they either like the ex military product or they don't. jmc had a large number of ex helo guys.......probably due to the chief pilot's background in this area. I think Air 2000 had the largest proportion, many inside referring to it as the Air2000 'Squadron'.
Scroggs is right in that over the last few years the number of recruits entering these (and other airlines) from a military background has diminished significantly. When I joined jmc in early 2001 something like 100 pilots had been taken on in 12 months and the vast majority were not ex military. I get the same feeling from Britannia's recent intakes. So even if it was 80-90% it certainly isn't now and with the likes of CTC supplying low hours guys to airlines like jmc (Thomas Cook) and Monarch I think the trend has changed, probably for the reason Scroggs has stated, but also because a 250hr recruit is not going to be bleating for a command after 2 years with the average time for command in the charter airlines being probably something like 8yrs. That (probably coupled to cost/ risk) was certainly jmc reasoning for turning to CTC and low hours guys for all their recruiting needs.
PP
The 80-90% figure is unrealistic. I have experience of jmc, Air2000 and Britannia. All of these airlines have a large number of ex military pilots, but none of them has 90% that is for sure.
I think the 'desireable' pecking order for ex military is as you state, but I don't think these airlines make too much of a distinction; they either like the ex military product or they don't. jmc had a large number of ex helo guys.......probably due to the chief pilot's background in this area. I think Air 2000 had the largest proportion, many inside referring to it as the Air2000 'Squadron'.
Scroggs is right in that over the last few years the number of recruits entering these (and other airlines) from a military background has diminished significantly. When I joined jmc in early 2001 something like 100 pilots had been taken on in 12 months and the vast majority were not ex military. I get the same feeling from Britannia's recent intakes. So even if it was 80-90% it certainly isn't now and with the likes of CTC supplying low hours guys to airlines like jmc (Thomas Cook) and Monarch I think the trend has changed, probably for the reason Scroggs has stated, but also because a 250hr recruit is not going to be bleating for a command after 2 years with the average time for command in the charter airlines being probably something like 8yrs. That (probably coupled to cost/ risk) was certainly jmc reasoning for turning to CTC and low hours guys for all their recruiting needs.
PP
Last edited by Pilot Pete; 29th Jul 2003 at 07:21.
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Thanks all, for your replies.
However, to my question of retraining? This is obviously an issue so as to satisfy CAA/JAA regs no?
Pls, I dont want to open a can of worms on the "is an ex mod boy better" jive, youve all answered with obvious experience and knowledge. PP $ Scroggs I have previous contact with,WG you present an interesting case which helps me, so thanks to all again.
B025
Just to add, due to some response, and having re-read my original post to this thread, im must admit (without intention) that it could be interpreted that i am ex Mod/FAA.
This is not the case, in fact im not ex anything
Just totally racked off with my civi (non- aviation related ) job, and am considering all avenues of approach (pun not intended).
TY
Sqn Ldr b025
However, to my question of retraining? This is obviously an issue so as to satisfy CAA/JAA regs no?
Pls, I dont want to open a can of worms on the "is an ex mod boy better" jive, youve all answered with obvious experience and knowledge. PP $ Scroggs I have previous contact with,WG you present an interesting case which helps me, so thanks to all again.
B025
Just to add, due to some response, and having re-read my original post to this thread, im must admit (without intention) that it could be interpreted that i am ex Mod/FAA.
This is not the case, in fact im not ex anything
Just totally racked off with my civi (non- aviation related ) job, and am considering all avenues of approach (pun not intended).
TY
Sqn Ldr b025
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b025,
If I am right in interpreting your last post, are you considering using the military to train as a pilot, doing the minimun time and then chasing an airline job?
If so then there are several major things which you need to be aware of.
If you try and join the military as a soldier, they will snap your hand off. But try and join as a prospective pilot about to cost them a sweet couple of million to train and you have another thing coming. Competition to get in is fierce and the slots are reducing all the time. Any sniff that they are dealing with someone with a hidden agenda and less than complete commitment and you would be extrememly lucky to get in. More importantly, once in (from experience) there are many hurdles and hoops to traverse which can really de-motivate and p1ss off even the most ardent trainee. What you fly and when you fly it is really a combination of luck and skill, but there can be little or no choice for the individual in some instances.
Bluntly, if you can stand bu11sh1t, discipline and living the military lifestyle, forget the airlines and investigate joining the military. The 6 years you quote is for the return of service which usually starts once you have gained your wings. For some of the pilots I flew with, this was 4 years after joining, meaning they were not going to leave until after 10 years of service.
Concerning re-training, most military pilots do need to re-train. As ex-aricrew but not pilot, my understanding is as follows. How much depends on what was flown and for how long. The only licence a military pilot automatically qualifies as having on leaving the forces is a PPL. The transport fleet invariably have a big advantage here as their line of work almost parallels the civilian world. A military aviator will without doubt be very skillful within their remit and as such, the transfer from military to civil pilot is normally straightforward even if the nature of the flying is different.
The advantage to be gained by taking the military route before applying to airlines is difficult to quantify because so much can be done in the same timespan. For example you could spend 18 months getting a CPL and Instructors rating. A couple of years working as an instructor before moving onto air taxis and potentially turboprops would provide a distinctly different skills base, and some would say a more relevant skills base. Meanwhile your alter ego is in a desk post 8 years into a military flying career, planning their next posting. Apples and bacon. Both food but can't really be compared.
I'm not sure what advantage is afforded to ex-military types, I don't believe anything personally. However, contacts are everything and this is where the military do win. Usually they know a colleague who has joined airline X and who can help them with good words and inside info etc. These contacts can be difficult to make through the straightforward flying training pipeline.
Obs cop
If I am right in interpreting your last post, are you considering using the military to train as a pilot, doing the minimun time and then chasing an airline job?
If so then there are several major things which you need to be aware of.
If you try and join the military as a soldier, they will snap your hand off. But try and join as a prospective pilot about to cost them a sweet couple of million to train and you have another thing coming. Competition to get in is fierce and the slots are reducing all the time. Any sniff that they are dealing with someone with a hidden agenda and less than complete commitment and you would be extrememly lucky to get in. More importantly, once in (from experience) there are many hurdles and hoops to traverse which can really de-motivate and p1ss off even the most ardent trainee. What you fly and when you fly it is really a combination of luck and skill, but there can be little or no choice for the individual in some instances.
Bluntly, if you can stand bu11sh1t, discipline and living the military lifestyle, forget the airlines and investigate joining the military. The 6 years you quote is for the return of service which usually starts once you have gained your wings. For some of the pilots I flew with, this was 4 years after joining, meaning they were not going to leave until after 10 years of service.
Concerning re-training, most military pilots do need to re-train. As ex-aricrew but not pilot, my understanding is as follows. How much depends on what was flown and for how long. The only licence a military pilot automatically qualifies as having on leaving the forces is a PPL. The transport fleet invariably have a big advantage here as their line of work almost parallels the civilian world. A military aviator will without doubt be very skillful within their remit and as such, the transfer from military to civil pilot is normally straightforward even if the nature of the flying is different.
The advantage to be gained by taking the military route before applying to airlines is difficult to quantify because so much can be done in the same timespan. For example you could spend 18 months getting a CPL and Instructors rating. A couple of years working as an instructor before moving onto air taxis and potentially turboprops would provide a distinctly different skills base, and some would say a more relevant skills base. Meanwhile your alter ego is in a desk post 8 years into a military flying career, planning their next posting. Apples and bacon. Both food but can't really be compared.
I'm not sure what advantage is afforded to ex-military types, I don't believe anything personally. However, contacts are everything and this is where the military do win. Usually they know a colleague who has joined airline X and who can help them with good words and inside info etc. These contacts can be difficult to make through the straightforward flying training pipeline.
Obs cop
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The retraining issue is relatively straightforward, and depends on the hours you have and the types you have flown. Assuming you have enough hours, you will be required to obtain an ATPL including an IR and type rating. The exams you need to obtain the ATPL vary depending on your experience, as I suggested in my first post. An IR and type rating may be available on your Service type, if it is represented on the current civil register, otherwise you will need to achieve these on an aeroplane such as a Seneca to validate the licence. Your commercial type rating will normally be provided by your employer, though with some airlines there may be a cost involved.
WG, we probably will have to agree to disagree, but I'd love to know how many ex-mil pilots you think will enter the market this year versus the number of airline posts available. I estimate that the military represent no more than 25% of recruits into the airlines now - and the proportion will decrease as the market opens up. Those pilots who left the military years ago are not in competition with wannabes trying to get jobs now, so the proportion of ex-mil in any airline from years gone by is irrelevant (though it is less than you suggest, in any case - even in Britannia).
Scroggs
WG, we probably will have to agree to disagree, but I'd love to know how many ex-mil pilots you think will enter the market this year versus the number of airline posts available. I estimate that the military represent no more than 25% of recruits into the airlines now - and the proportion will decrease as the market opens up. Those pilots who left the military years ago are not in competition with wannabes trying to get jobs now, so the proportion of ex-mil in any airline from years gone by is irrelevant (though it is less than you suggest, in any case - even in Britannia).
Scroggs
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From an ATPL issue point of view, ICAO/JAA/CAA require the candidate to have requisite flying experience and an acceptable medical standard, together with demonstrated levels of skill and knowledge. The ex-service pilot will have the relevant experience after a few years on a squadron and will probably have no problems with the Class 1 medical, having been similarly screened for military flying. Service pilots with recent currency are granted certain exemptions from some exams and are only required to be flight tested for the Instrument Rating. (I think I'm right here but if things have changed recently, no doubt someone will correct me).
As far as helping with that all important first airline job, it depends very much on supply and demand. If jobs are tight, pilots with "heavy" time are obviously best placed but in the pilot shortage situation we had not so long ago - yes, really! - even helicopter pilots were being taken straight on to jets. I don't really see any prejudice against fast jet pilots. A (very) few single seat guys have a bit of an adjustment problem but most soon revert to being mortals like the rest.
Airlines have training budgets so they are always seeking to minimise training risks (candidates failing to make the grade). Because of this, someone who has come through the military training system with its ethos of meeting a high standard or being washed out is probably considered a better bet than a straight through civil wannabe. It may not be fair, but that's how it is.
confundemus
As far as helping with that all important first airline job, it depends very much on supply and demand. If jobs are tight, pilots with "heavy" time are obviously best placed but in the pilot shortage situation we had not so long ago - yes, really! - even helicopter pilots were being taken straight on to jets. I don't really see any prejudice against fast jet pilots. A (very) few single seat guys have a bit of an adjustment problem but most soon revert to being mortals like the rest.
Airlines have training budgets so they are always seeking to minimise training risks (candidates failing to make the grade). Because of this, someone who has come through the military training system with its ethos of meeting a high standard or being washed out is probably considered a better bet than a straight through civil wannabe. It may not be fair, but that's how it is.
confundemus
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Pirate
I must take issue with your "even helicopter pilots ..." bit. In the RAF, the 'pecking order' of ability starts (obviously) at fast-jet, then goes to helicopter, and then multi-engine (ie transports). Student pilots can be 'chopped' from helicopters and subsequently go on to fly C130, Tristar, C17 etc.
A lot of airline recruiters know this, and formulate their policies accordingly.
I must take issue with your "even helicopter pilots ..." bit. In the RAF, the 'pecking order' of ability starts (obviously) at fast-jet, then goes to helicopter, and then multi-engine (ie transports). Student pilots can be 'chopped' from helicopters and subsequently go on to fly C130, Tristar, C17 etc.
A lot of airline recruiters know this, and formulate their policies accordingly.
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Pirate, I agree absolutely.
Pub User, this isn't a discussion about the relative abilities of different military pilot streams, but about the acceptability of ex-mil pilots to the airlines. I'm sure you'd agree that there are good and less good (but still more than adequate) in all mil pilot streams, once beyond the first-tourist traps, and most airlines would accept that. It's also fairly indisputable that most airlines expect to face a lower retraining bill and risk with an ex-truckie than, say, an ex-Lynx man. That's perhaps more a comment on the airlines' expectations than on the qualities of the pilots of those types, but it's the way they see it.
It's fair to say that the mil helo world generally faces a steeper uphill slope to being accepted by airlines than fast-jet wallahs, and they than truckies, but that all are welcomed with open arms over and above many other sources of pilots. As long as there are any jobs available, that is.....
Scroggs
Pub User, this isn't a discussion about the relative abilities of different military pilot streams, but about the acceptability of ex-mil pilots to the airlines. I'm sure you'd agree that there are good and less good (but still more than adequate) in all mil pilot streams, once beyond the first-tourist traps, and most airlines would accept that. It's also fairly indisputable that most airlines expect to face a lower retraining bill and risk with an ex-truckie than, say, an ex-Lynx man. That's perhaps more a comment on the airlines' expectations than on the qualities of the pilots of those types, but it's the way they see it.
It's fair to say that the mil helo world generally faces a steeper uphill slope to being accepted by airlines than fast-jet wallahs, and they than truckies, but that all are welcomed with open arms over and above many other sources of pilots. As long as there are any jobs available, that is.....
Scroggs
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As a modertor demi-God you are, of course, correct Scoggs. I was merely objecting to the use of the phrase "even helicopter pilots", which naturally suggests some sort of untermensch. As for your example of Lynx pilots, well I did quote the RAF 'pecking order'. The Army are most definately inferior beings from the moment they even contemplate setting foot into the recruitment office!
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Bo25053
I’m a C-130 J guy just leaving the RAF. I’ve been lucky enough to gain an ATPL using several of the exemptions that are available for multi-guys. The full gen on these is at tga's site
However, like obs cop, I’d caution against joining the armed services if you just consider it as a means of getting your licence. From my experience of training and being on the squadrons, it’s not something you should attempt unless you think you’re really committed to a military way of life. If you have thought carefully about your motivations and what would be expected of you, then it can be great fun and utterly rewarding. As to what advantages it can give you in job hunting, I think it can be a double-edged sword. You may well gain contacts in various airlines, but I also get the impression that a military background can make you a bit of an unknown quantity and that may unsettle some prospective employers.
I’d be the first to admit that the self-funded route is very daunting - but would that be a better route if you feel more drawn to civilian flying?
I’m a C-130 J guy just leaving the RAF. I’ve been lucky enough to gain an ATPL using several of the exemptions that are available for multi-guys. The full gen on these is at tga's site
However, like obs cop, I’d caution against joining the armed services if you just consider it as a means of getting your licence. From my experience of training and being on the squadrons, it’s not something you should attempt unless you think you’re really committed to a military way of life. If you have thought carefully about your motivations and what would be expected of you, then it can be great fun and utterly rewarding. As to what advantages it can give you in job hunting, I think it can be a double-edged sword. You may well gain contacts in various airlines, but I also get the impression that a military background can make you a bit of an unknown quantity and that may unsettle some prospective employers.
I’d be the first to admit that the self-funded route is very daunting - but would that be a better route if you feel more drawn to civilian flying?
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Pub User
You have misinterpreted my comments. I agree that there is absolutely nothing preventing a helicopter pilot of whatever provenance from becoming a superb airline pilot. However, the difference in flying environments is huge and he does have a steeper learning curve than a fixed wing trainee. I speak from experience, having had a number of straight through helo guys in the right hand seat straight after line training. Most recognised the hill that they had to climb and got stuck in. Sadly, a few were convinced that they were aces from the word go and fared accordingly.
I liked the comment from one of the ex-helo men that they liked NDB approaches as they always ended up facing into the wind!
confundemus
You have misinterpreted my comments. I agree that there is absolutely nothing preventing a helicopter pilot of whatever provenance from becoming a superb airline pilot. However, the difference in flying environments is huge and he does have a steeper learning curve than a fixed wing trainee. I speak from experience, having had a number of straight through helo guys in the right hand seat straight after line training. Most recognised the hill that they had to climb and got stuck in. Sadly, a few were convinced that they were aces from the word go and fared accordingly.
I liked the comment from one of the ex-helo men that they liked NDB approaches as they always ended up facing into the wind!
confundemus
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No misinterpretation at all, I'm just making sure the truth is known. After all, you never know who is reading these pages and I wouldn't want recruiters to think badly of the rotary folk.
Additionally, I've heard of a few ex helicopter pilots (Chinook) being taken straight onto jets in the last few weeks, so maybe things are looking up?
Additionally, I've heard of a few ex helicopter pilots (Chinook) being taken straight onto jets in the last few weeks, so maybe things are looking up?
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I thought the Navy flew the lynx? The Army, some training frame with wire guided missiles strapped to em?
Fair play to all ex mil boys and girls I say, and perhaps scroggs is right, the debate hear is the application and desirability of these people to potential airlines; but all the experience, qualifications and skills are still no use to you if there are no jobs available!
Fair play to all ex mil boys and girls I say, and perhaps scroggs is right, the debate hear is the application and desirability of these people to potential airlines; but all the experience, qualifications and skills are still no use to you if there are no jobs available!