So what's the alternative to any P2F schemes for us EU low hour pilots?
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So what's the alternative to any P2F schemes for us EU low hour pilots?
So for a pilot with 250 something hours, no TR, no jet time, just fresh out of school, what's the alternative to start flying aside from paying 30-40K to any P2F scheme?
This isn't just me, but many many pilots out there fresh out of flight school during or right after COVID. Airlines are reporting traffic higher than 2019, yet 95% of the companies want people with a gazillion hours on Type or Turbine, and the ones that don't ask anything get flooded with 150.000 applications, with 99.9% of them with more hours than me or any low hour pilot.
These schemes are looking like they're the only alternative instead of waiting how many years needed until the market gets cleared of experienced pilots laid off during COVID.
I've searched far and wide, from South America to East Asia, and they either want experience, or you need to be a national, or whatever other requirements a freshly minted pilot does not have.
So? What's the deal? Did I literally spent money on flight school to end up not doing anything ever?
This isn't just me, but many many pilots out there fresh out of flight school during or right after COVID. Airlines are reporting traffic higher than 2019, yet 95% of the companies want people with a gazillion hours on Type or Turbine, and the ones that don't ask anything get flooded with 150.000 applications, with 99.9% of them with more hours than me or any low hour pilot.
These schemes are looking like they're the only alternative instead of waiting how many years needed until the market gets cleared of experienced pilots laid off during COVID.
I've searched far and wide, from South America to East Asia, and they either want experience, or you need to be a national, or whatever other requirements a freshly minted pilot does not have.
So? What's the deal? Did I literally spent money on flight school to end up not doing anything ever?
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I wish I could have good news for you but.... I am in your very same situation. Completed CPL/IR with all courses and stuff about one and a half years ago, 350 hours total, speak English and Italian. Cannot find anything.
I've spent about 45k on the training (and I was lucky), I cannot afford another 30k for a type rating. I am thinking of just finding another job, as much aviation related as possible, but it is not easy either.
I also have contacts in the business aviation, private jets, I've been able to right-seat on a 525 for some time, but it's not enough apparently.
Everything that I see asks to:
- Be type rated, or
- Have 1500 to 2500 hours, or
- Speak German or the language of the country.
No ATOs that I know are looking for FIs (or they ask for the language), so spending 5-7k on a FI rating doesn't feel appealing. I have asked to some parachuting clubs around, but they said I don't have enough experience... How can I build experience if nobody lets me fly?
It's pure madness here.
I've spent about 45k on the training (and I was lucky), I cannot afford another 30k for a type rating. I am thinking of just finding another job, as much aviation related as possible, but it is not easy either.
I also have contacts in the business aviation, private jets, I've been able to right-seat on a 525 for some time, but it's not enough apparently.
Everything that I see asks to:
- Be type rated, or
- Have 1500 to 2500 hours, or
- Speak German or the language of the country.
No ATOs that I know are looking for FIs (or they ask for the language), so spending 5-7k on a FI rating doesn't feel appealing. I have asked to some parachuting clubs around, but they said I don't have enough experience... How can I build experience if nobody lets me fly?
It's pure madness here.
There have been several jobs going that don't require super experience. There is also always Wizz and Ryanair, who seem to be always constantly looking for pilots. Otherwise, there are a host of jobs available with smaller aircraft operators in things like surveying and special missions.... you just need to keep your eyes really open for them. Failing that, get your instructors rating and build your hours that way.
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Ryanair is still a P2F scheme, just with Ryanair's name behind it.
Wizzair is the same as those 5% of companies who ask no hours, they get flooded with extremely experienced pilots. I went to Wizzair already, 2 of us had less than 300 hours, while the other 28 had more than 1000.
Wizzair is the same as those 5% of companies who ask no hours, they get flooded with extremely experienced pilots. I went to Wizzair already, 2 of us had less than 300 hours, while the other 28 had more than 1000.
So for a pilot with 250 something hours, no TR, no jet time, just fresh out of school, what's the alternative to start flying aside from paying 30-40K to any P2F scheme?
This isn't just me, but many many pilots out there fresh out of flight school during or right after COVID. Airlines are reporting traffic higher than 2019, yet 95% of the companies want people with a gazillion hours on Type or Turbine, and the ones that don't ask anything get flooded with 150.000 applications, with 99.9% of them with more hours than me or any low hour pilot.
These schemes are looking like they're the only alternative instead of waiting how many years needed until the market gets cleared of experienced pilots laid off during COVID.
I've searched far and wide, from South America to East Asia, and they either want experience, or you need to be a national, or whatever other requirements a freshly minted pilot does not have.
So? What's the deal? Did I literally spent money on flight school to end up not doing anything ever?
This isn't just me, but many many pilots out there fresh out of flight school during or right after COVID. Airlines are reporting traffic higher than 2019, yet 95% of the companies want people with a gazillion hours on Type or Turbine, and the ones that don't ask anything get flooded with 150.000 applications, with 99.9% of them with more hours than me or any low hour pilot.
These schemes are looking like they're the only alternative instead of waiting how many years needed until the market gets cleared of experienced pilots laid off during COVID.
I've searched far and wide, from South America to East Asia, and they either want experience, or you need to be a national, or whatever other requirements a freshly minted pilot does not have.
So? What's the deal? Did I literally spent money on flight school to end up not doing anything ever?
Are you talking about paying for a type rating like you do for Ryanair? Most people here seem fine with that (likely because they’ve done it…) In which case, it is what it is, get your hands on the 30k and you’ll be a captain on six figures by 2028, happy days.
If you mean paying for the line sectors, well that really is pointless. The hours will be pretty meaningless, your CV screams desperate but rich a mile off. Oh and people on here will see that as having crossed the line, despite already having spent 100K which is totally fine, because most people *didn’t* go down that route.
The alternatives are to instruct, or to wait. Aviation is cyclical so if your jump in after the wave has passed then you have to tread water until the next one comes.
If all goes according to plan then RIA will become the biggest airline in the world which should create a huge pilot vacuum... 😉 🤔
If all goes according to plan then RIA will become the biggest airline in the world which should create a huge pilot vacuum... 😉 🤔
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How can you defend something and not defend something at the same time?
When you go for the cadet program for Ryanair, you're really paying for the line sectors. A Type Rating costs as low as 10K, while Ryanair's program costs 30K. So you're basically saying that going for Ryanair's program is pointless...?
How can you defend something and not defend something at the same time?
How can you defend something and not defend something at the same time?
Show me the type rating that offers you base training as part of the package for 10k.... I've never seen one and I've looked pretty hard. Besides, a white tail type rating is practically useless. Ryanair are asking you to shoulder the training risk, they're not asking you to pay for the 1500 hours of flying most P2F schemes offer.
I'd also say that I know a bunch of 300hrs and less pilots who been successful in being recruited in the last year, you've either just missed busy periods, or you maybe need to work on a way to get your CV to stand out.... but either way, you're still going to pay for your type rating and line training, whether its through a bond or upfront.
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Wizz Air bond is what.... 24k Euros taken out of your salary every month for 3 years. You're paying almost as much as a Ryanair type rating and line training.
Show me the type rating that offers you base training as part of the package for 10k.... I've never seen one and I've looked pretty hard. Besides, a white tail type rating is practically useless. Ryanair are asking you to shoulder the training risk, they're not asking you to pay for the 1500 hours of flying most P2F schemes offer.
I'd also say that I know a bunch of 300hrs and less pilots who been successful in being recruited in the last year, you've either just missed busy periods, or you maybe need to work on a way to get your CV to stand out.... but either way, you're still going to pay for your type rating and line training, whether its through a bond or upfront.
Show me the type rating that offers you base training as part of the package for 10k.... I've never seen one and I've looked pretty hard. Besides, a white tail type rating is practically useless. Ryanair are asking you to shoulder the training risk, they're not asking you to pay for the 1500 hours of flying most P2F schemes offer.
I'd also say that I know a bunch of 300hrs and less pilots who been successful in being recruited in the last year, you've either just missed busy periods, or you maybe need to work on a way to get your CV to stand out.... but either way, you're still going to pay for your type rating and line training, whether its through a bond or upfront.
Friend, the issue here is not the fact that I'll have to pay: I'm ready and willing to pay for it.
I've found a full Type Rating + Base Training for about 16K, 14K less than Ryanair.
As I said, going through the Ryanair program has as chief objective to do the 500 hours or so many sectors in those 6 months.
My issue here is that, if I didn't have any other alternatives, or if I'm just too broke to shell out another 30-40K, what do I do?
FI's are not needed at the moment since there's a huge influx of low hour pilots, plus the whole certification takes another half a year, if we're being optimistic.
And you know a bunch of 300hour pilots that were recruited, and that's great, but for every 2 or 3 pilots recruited, there are hundreds without a chance, as competent as the ones being recruited. Airlines are reporting record profits and constantly crying that there's a pilot shortage... But there's only an experienced pilot shortage.
Oh well.
When you go for the cadet program for Ryanair, you're really paying for the line sectors. A Type Rating costs as low as 10K, while Ryanair's program costs 30K. So you're basically saying that going for Ryanair's program is pointless...?
How can you defend something and not defend something at the same time?
How can you defend something and not defend something at the same time?
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You’re not paying for the line sectors. You’re getting a salary. You are absolutely paying for the type rating though. Base training isn’t cheap! Does the training provider make a bit of cash? Yes. When you’re a captain making over 100K a year in five years, do you honestly give a monkeys the % profit margin from your type rating? Of course you don’t, don’t be silly.
And VariablePitchP, you're not getting paid, they're just giving you back the money you gave them initially... That's fine by me still
Hell, I'd fly without any payment for those first few hours as long as I'd get free housing and food.
Last edited by Senior Pilot; 25th Dec 2022 at 22:23. Reason: Fix quote colour
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Wizz air do not ask for anything upfront, try there. As for Ryanair, I disagree that it's pay2fly and even if it was, I disagree that you'd refuse it on that principle because as already mentioned, you have paid to fly already, that ship sailed a long time ago.
pay2fly was a term coined about 15 yrs ago to refer to schemes where you paid for line training (whilst carrying passengers). It does not refer to paying for a type rating.
BA even launched a low hour scheme in 2019, they were charging 25k upfront for the rating. Would you refuse that too if it opened today? Harsh reality here mate is you aren't remotely attractive to 99.9% of airlines. A low hour pilot requires so much babysitting and training that they see it as a hassle more than anything else. Being offered any job, paid rating or not, is a very lucky achievement in itself.
pay2fly was a term coined about 15 yrs ago to refer to schemes where you paid for line training (whilst carrying passengers). It does not refer to paying for a type rating.
BA even launched a low hour scheme in 2019, they were charging 25k upfront for the rating. Would you refuse that too if it opened today? Harsh reality here mate is you aren't remotely attractive to 99.9% of airlines. A low hour pilot requires so much babysitting and training that they see it as a hassle more than anything else. Being offered any job, paid rating or not, is a very lucky achievement in itself.
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Some specifically say you need a Type Rating before hand and are cheaper, but most are catered to people with no Type Rating or turbine hours.
It's no different than Ryanair, it just doesn't have the company name behind it.
Check out EagleJet. They have different schemes, some with TR included.
Most pay2fly schemes are a Type Rating + Hour Building on type carrying passengers for an airline.
Some specifically say you need a Type Rating before hand and are cheaper, but most are catered to people with no Type Rating or turbine hours.
It's no different than Ryanair, it just doesn't have the company name behind it.
Check out EagleJet. They have different schemes, some with TR included.
Some specifically say you need a Type Rating before hand and are cheaper, but most are catered to people with no Type Rating or turbine hours.
It's no different than Ryanair, it just doesn't have the company name behind it.
Check out EagleJet. They have different schemes, some with TR included.
You’ve already paid for a licence, you had no issue with that!
Most pay2fly schemes are a Type Rating + Hour Building on type carrying passengers for an airline.
Some specifically say you need a Type Rating before hand and are cheaper, but most are catered to people with no Type Rating or turbine hours.
It's no different than Ryanair, it just doesn't have the company name behind it.
Check out EagleJet. They have different schemes, some with TR included.
Some specifically say you need a Type Rating before hand and are cheaper, but most are catered to people with no Type Rating or turbine hours.
It's no different than Ryanair, it just doesn't have the company name behind it.
Check out EagleJet. They have different schemes, some with TR included.
Ryanair is asking you to fund a type rating and line training fee which is comparable with what almost all airlines will charge you for a type rating as a non-type rated cadet just starting out, either by taking it back from your out of your salary (see Wizz) or by tying you to that company when you could have moved on and earning more (see also Wizz).
To be honest, the time of pilots having their jet type ratings and line trainings sponsored are pretty much gone... partly because back in the days when airlines did do that it was much easier to build lots of SEP and MEP time and experience before going to airlines. All the old boy pilots I know did a ton of flying before they ever considered moves to jet operating airlines, they were not the kind of risk that us very low hour wanting to go straight to big jet cadets are...
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In P2F schemes you are paid no salary, or a nominal salary to satisfy visa requirements. You fly for the number of hours you pay for 500, 750, 1500... then your contract with the company is over and you're unemployed. This is clearly not the case with Ryanair, where most of their cadets continue on with long careers for the airline. Most P2F schemes also cost far far more than 30k euros.
Ryanair is asking you to fund a type rating and line training fee which is comparable with what almost all airlines will charge you for a type rating as a non-type rated cadet just starting out, either by taking it back from your out of your salary (see Wizz) or by tying you to that company when you could have moved on and earning more (see also Wizz).
To be honest, the time of pilots having their jet type ratings and line trainings sponsored are pretty much gone... partly because back in the days when airlines did do that it was much easier to build lots of SEP and MEP time and experience before going to airlines. All the old boy pilots I know did a ton of flying before they ever considered moves to jet operating airlines, they were not the kind of risk that us very low hour wanting to go straight to big jet cadets are...
Ryanair is asking you to fund a type rating and line training fee which is comparable with what almost all airlines will charge you for a type rating as a non-type rated cadet just starting out, either by taking it back from your out of your salary (see Wizz) or by tying you to that company when you could have moved on and earning more (see also Wizz).
To be honest, the time of pilots having their jet type ratings and line trainings sponsored are pretty much gone... partly because back in the days when airlines did do that it was much easier to build lots of SEP and MEP time and experience before going to airlines. All the old boy pilots I know did a ton of flying before they ever considered moves to jet operating airlines, they were not the kind of risk that us very low hour wanting to go straight to big jet cadets are...
I've been to Ryanair's assessment. They don't guarantee any type of employment after you're done. But they do need the pilots, so they end up absorbing about 80% of who stays.
That's why I'm comparing everything.
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Yes it's crap to have to pay for the rating, but let's not start calling spades wheelbarrows in our frustration. It is paying for an additional certification onto your license, something you have already done many times.
I'm sorry but it's just grand that you're advocating and opposing the exact same thing,, depending on whether it has RYR plastered on it or not... I'm just here trying to scope what's the sentiment of the whole scheme like it is, considering that all the threads a few years ago literally condemned and had you lynched if you even suggested someone to go forward with them, or even worse, said you'd go through them yourself.
Why did you go to ryanairs assessment and contribute 400EU to their cause if you are so convinced it's a Ansty P2F scheme?
I'm just wondering what's the alternative for those who really haven't the financial capacity to do the same.
As I said, I'm scoping the sentiment around people, as all threads I found had people lynching about this. Even Ryanair's program was at one point ridiculed, and whoever went through that program was called dumb.
Did you do any research before you started training?
I only ask because at least the last 15 to 20 years P2F and Self Sponsored Type Ratings have been pretty much the way in for low houred Pilots who want to go straight into jets. I clearly remember Bond Aviation/Astraeus doing this in the early 2000's, I should know I did some of the courses for them.
You seem to be convinced you can obtain a rating for minimal money, is that GTA by any chance?, but what is that worth, at best you will have a 737 rating on your license, with no experience. This puts you in a corner, you are kind of committed to 737 operators, but with no experience no one will consider you. That is why the Ryanair program works.
I agree with it, no but that's the way things are and have been for at least the last 15 to 20 years, simply complaining on here that its unfair is not going to get you a job.
If you are unable or unwilling to pay Ryanair etc then you will have to look at other ways to build experience and hours.
I only ask because at least the last 15 to 20 years P2F and Self Sponsored Type Ratings have been pretty much the way in for low houred Pilots who want to go straight into jets. I clearly remember Bond Aviation/Astraeus doing this in the early 2000's, I should know I did some of the courses for them.
You seem to be convinced you can obtain a rating for minimal money, is that GTA by any chance?, but what is that worth, at best you will have a 737 rating on your license, with no experience. This puts you in a corner, you are kind of committed to 737 operators, but with no experience no one will consider you. That is why the Ryanair program works.
I agree with it, no but that's the way things are and have been for at least the last 15 to 20 years, simply complaining on here that its unfair is not going to get you a job.
If you are unable or unwilling to pay Ryanair etc then you will have to look at other ways to build experience and hours.