Would you do it again?
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Something I am a firm advocate of is - try and get some exposure to aviation before jumping onto that zero-to-hero fATPL/MPL course. Join a gliding club. Man the reception desk at an aeroclub or a skydiving club. Try to get a summer job on the ramp of your local airport. Maybe try and ask your local agrochemical spraying company if they need someone to help out - many of the operator jobs come with the opportunity to fly in the back of the plane. If you're doing a degree, look into all sorts of options for an internship - it doesn't necessarily have to be a full year in industry, even a couple of weeks over the summer holidays would be great. This is one of the precursors towards making an informed decision which you won't regret. If it's just not the right cup of tea for you, it's so much better to find this out and re-plan accordingly before you've spent the money for the CPL rather than after it! Conversely, if it looks right for you - bingo, here's one more thing to talk about in your job interview one day. So, any aviation experience you can get prior to starting flight training is a total win-win.
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Definitely would do it all again...
After: scrubbing plates in kitchens, delivering pizza, chocolate factory, recruitment, car rental agency, Porsche, airline ops nothing compares to being a pilot for me.
Maybe because I’ve done lots of other (mainly monkey) jobs beforehand it makes me appreciate it more.
I can’t imagine I would appreciate it as much if my parents had thrown £100k at me at 18 and shipped me off to CTC, OAA etc.
After: scrubbing plates in kitchens, delivering pizza, chocolate factory, recruitment, car rental agency, Porsche, airline ops nothing compares to being a pilot for me.
Maybe because I’ve done lots of other (mainly monkey) jobs beforehand it makes me appreciate it more.
I can’t imagine I would appreciate it as much if my parents had thrown £100k at me at 18 and shipped me off to CTC, OAA etc.
PilotLZ
Very, very wise and considered approach towards the pilot profession. Someone who really, really want to fly aeroplanes will appreciate all aspects of aviation and not just look towards the shiny jets.
Very, very wise and considered approach towards the pilot profession. Someone who really, really want to fly aeroplanes will appreciate all aspects of aviation and not just look towards the shiny jets.
Negan
I understand your perspective - but I don't agree on it. IF flying is what you always wanted to do - and for the right reasons - I don't see the point in "wasting" (though education is never a waste as per se) time and effort in building another career before flying. Sure, it's nice and comfy to know you have something to fall back on (maybe!), but if all you want to do, is to fly airplanes - then you will succeed - no backup plan required - perhaps not always in ideal locations, sometimes you'll have to travel across the world for the job (interim), but that will all be part of the aviation times to look back at and remember. This is aviation. If you're priority in life is family only, with the need to be home in your own bed every night, and have your daily routines in place, aviation might not be suitable.
I understand your perspective - but I don't agree on it. IF flying is what you always wanted to do - and for the right reasons - I don't see the point in "wasting" (though education is never a waste as per se) time and effort in building another career before flying. Sure, it's nice and comfy to know you have something to fall back on (maybe!), but if all you want to do, is to fly airplanes - then you will succeed - no backup plan required - perhaps not always in ideal locations, sometimes you'll have to travel across the world for the job (interim), but that will all be part of the aviation times to look back at and remember. This is aviation. If you're priority in life is family only, with the need to be home in your own bed every night, and have your daily routines in place, aviation might not be suitable.
Last edited by Klimax; 28th Nov 2020 at 17:19. Reason: spelling (still crap, but)
Worst case just pick up a 25k/year office job to keep you ticking over.
Spending three years not earning and going to university to get into 50k of debt just to have a ‘backup’ seems pretty silly. Chances are in a downturn you’ll need a backup for two/three years if that and unless you’re making 100k plus you’re far better off having just done the flight training in the first place and picking up a generic job if you need to.
And in any seniority airline the three years you spent getting a computing degree could well be the reason you’ve been made redundant and not kept the job in the first place.
If you want to spend three years boozing and chasing the opposite sex then yes uni is awesome but don’t put yourself through three years of something you don’t want to do just to have this mythical ‘backup’. How many companies are actually hiring and offering top pay in downturns? Not many...
Spending three years not earning and going to university to get into 50k of debt just to have a ‘backup’ seems pretty silly. Chances are in a downturn you’ll need a backup for two/three years if that and unless you’re making 100k plus you’re far better off having just done the flight training in the first place and picking up a generic job if you need to.
And in any seniority airline the three years you spent getting a computing degree could well be the reason you’ve been made redundant and not kept the job in the first place.
If you want to spend three years boozing and chasing the opposite sex then yes uni is awesome but don’t put yourself through three years of something you don’t want to do just to have this mythical ‘backup’. How many companies are actually hiring and offering top pay in downturns? Not many...
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Klimax
Completely disagree. First of all, how on earth are you going to raise the money for a pilot licence without having a job, in which case you're building up experience in a profession while funding flight training.
Myself and most of my colleagues have been made redundant now. Some are driving trucks, some are doing nothing. I'm personally glad that I've been able to jump straight back into my old career. It's not flying, and I'm getting paid half as much for doing double the work, but at least it's enough to keep me going until things improve and I'm building up more experience for when the next crash comes in 10 years time and won't have to resort to driving trucks then either.
Completely disagree. First of all, how on earth are you going to raise the money for a pilot licence without having a job, in which case you're building up experience in a profession while funding flight training.
Myself and most of my colleagues have been made redundant now. Some are driving trucks, some are doing nothing. I'm personally glad that I've been able to jump straight back into my old career. It's not flying, and I'm getting paid half as much for doing double the work, but at least it's enough to keep me going until things improve and I'm building up more experience for when the next crash comes in 10 years time and won't have to resort to driving trucks then either.
Fair enough.
However, most pilots that I know of (including myself) took out loans to do their flight training - not by saving up first. The time you spend doing your old career, prior to flying, others spend on getting the license and flight hours. This may well have put them ahead of you on the seniority list or "flight experience list" - this may in return mean they still have a job or they will be ahead of you when things turn brighter (rehiring/hiring). It's obviously not a disadvantage to have "other" prior experience or education other than aviation - it's just not necessary to pursue an aviation career.
However, most pilots that I know of (including myself) took out loans to do their flight training - not by saving up first. The time you spend doing your old career, prior to flying, others spend on getting the license and flight hours. This may well have put them ahead of you on the seniority list or "flight experience list" - this may in return mean they still have a job or they will be ahead of you when things turn brighter (rehiring/hiring). It's obviously not a disadvantage to have "other" prior experience or education other than aviation - it's just not necessary to pursue an aviation career.
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Getting on the seniority list of a major airline can be delayed by multiple reasons. Luck with timing, willingness and ability to relocate, bonding arrangements, momentary perception of the benefits coming with a quicker upgrade in a non-seniority-based airline and many other factors can come into play. So, it's not granted that someone who rushed into flight training straight out of high school will necessarily be higher up the list than someone who has taken some time to learn something different before starting flying.
It's not granted, true, but chances to qualify (flight time requirements if any!) are possibly higher the sooner the pilot has gained flying experience - which in most cases means the sooner he starts flight training and building flight experience (and not office experience!). Three years spend on a college degree (BA etc.) can easily be 1500h of flight time down in Africa or where ever work is found. To fly airplanes there is no benefit in having higher levels of studies or any other academic degree. This is quite clear from most airline requirements (in Europe at least).
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Having wanted to fly airliners since I was 9 years old, I grew up playing flight simulator, geeking out on the classic ITVV documentaries and building airfix models. Typical of many...the best part of any family holiday was always the flight! It was all I wanted to do and every decision I made from that age steered me towards that direction. From the GCSE and A-Level subjects I chose at school, joining the air cadets and getting a gliding scholarship through GAPAN. Every book, movie and magazine I owned always involved aviation. I had an absolute burning desire to fly.
I always wanted to fly airliners, But having gained my PPL from a young age I never thought it would materialise, I honestly thought I would end up becoming an FI and instructing at weekends. Something I would of been more than happy doing as I loved flying and being around airplanes. However, I was extremely lucky and echoing ‘right place, right time’, I was able to join a major European airline at the age of 25.
I say ‘lucky’ as there is always an element of luck, but also a lot of hard work and determination. I self funded my PPL and CPL/IR and studied for my ATPL’s distance learning whilst working a full time job- studying in the afternoons and weekends.
But would I do it again? YES with one difference: learn a skill set outside of aviation.
I find it an absolute privilege to go to work and fly professionally for a living. Having spent the best part of a decade saving every penny towards a modular route makes you appreciate it all the more. I had worked in a different industry beforehand, doing long hours outside in the wet and cold and it makes me never take my flying job for granted.
However, this year has made me realise more than ever how fragile the industry is. The most volatile of the volatile. I knew what I was getting into having read PPRuNe as a young teenager (there was just as much depression as there is today!) I wish I had studied for something at university or something more practical like being in the tools. I’ve worked all my life towards my goal and this year it was almost taken from me, and next year is worrying too as to whether I’ll have a job still or not. None of the skills I’ve acquired as a professional pilot will ever be of any use in the real world. A fact I’ve slowly come to terms with.
HOWEVER,
All well and good saying hindsight is a wonderful thing. But what would I have studied or learnt before embarking on a flying career when it was (and still is) my one true passion in life. All well and good asking people to get some training or another career beforehand but how can you succeed when your mind and heart isn’t set on it? I always remembered an old quote when I was studying for my ATPL’s from Will Smith...“there is no need for a Plan B as it distracts from Plan A“
I always wanted to fly airliners, But having gained my PPL from a young age I never thought it would materialise, I honestly thought I would end up becoming an FI and instructing at weekends. Something I would of been more than happy doing as I loved flying and being around airplanes. However, I was extremely lucky and echoing ‘right place, right time’, I was able to join a major European airline at the age of 25.
I say ‘lucky’ as there is always an element of luck, but also a lot of hard work and determination. I self funded my PPL and CPL/IR and studied for my ATPL’s distance learning whilst working a full time job- studying in the afternoons and weekends.
But would I do it again? YES with one difference: learn a skill set outside of aviation.
I find it an absolute privilege to go to work and fly professionally for a living. Having spent the best part of a decade saving every penny towards a modular route makes you appreciate it all the more. I had worked in a different industry beforehand, doing long hours outside in the wet and cold and it makes me never take my flying job for granted.
However, this year has made me realise more than ever how fragile the industry is. The most volatile of the volatile. I knew what I was getting into having read PPRuNe as a young teenager (there was just as much depression as there is today!) I wish I had studied for something at university or something more practical like being in the tools. I’ve worked all my life towards my goal and this year it was almost taken from me, and next year is worrying too as to whether I’ll have a job still or not. None of the skills I’ve acquired as a professional pilot will ever be of any use in the real world. A fact I’ve slowly come to terms with.
HOWEVER,
All well and good saying hindsight is a wonderful thing. But what would I have studied or learnt before embarking on a flying career when it was (and still is) my one true passion in life. All well and good asking people to get some training or another career beforehand but how can you succeed when your mind and heart isn’t set on it? I always remembered an old quote when I was studying for my ATPL’s from Will Smith...“there is no need for a Plan B as it distracts from Plan A“
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Capt Pit Bull
Why is it then that pretty much every pilot made redundant this summer became a delivery driver? Aviation gives you zero transferable skills for use outside aviation.
People need to know what flying is really like, it’s boring, unsociable shift work that you have to pay a huge premium for the privilege of doing.
I look back 10 years at when I was in my office job in a big company in a large city, I got up at a regular sociable time, I had routine, I could make arrangements with family/friends, I had dynamic days at work where I would be constantly learning new things, attending courses, giving presentations, bettering myself on a daily basis professionally. I worked in a large office with lots of people, there were always social events going on, work sports clubs, drinks, gatherings. I was learning to fly at the time as well because I had a real passion for aviation.
fast forward 10 years, I’m LHS LCC, I know I haven’t flown much over summer, but generally speaking; the lack of routine makes fitting anything in my life much harder, the 3am starts are no doubt shaving years off my life. The times I am home I’m normally so shagged from the stupid hours I work I’m no good as a husband/father. Try looking after youngsters then set your alarm for 3am. I hardly know any captains at work, I know the FOs really well, mostly nice chaps but 15 years younger than me. I’m hardly going to go to the pub with them. The few work socials there are I tend to know so few people it’s not that fun. 99% of a normal working day I get to interact with 1 person. The environment is horrible, noise, dirt, dry air, radiation etc. The work is mundane and boring, you’ll soon realise it doesn’t matter where you fly, you’re just flying from 1 bit of tarmac to another, Belfast or Budapest, who cares? You repeat SOPs to the point where your mouth is saying them but your brain isn’t even paying attention. Yes I get paid well, less so now with COVID, but it’s such a dull life. I read about my ex-colleagues who are doing amazing things in my old company, rising the ranks, learning new skills, constantly developing and evolving and compare it to being a taxi driver. Oh and if you had a passion for aviation before flying it’ll be gone in a year or two. I couldn’t think of anything worse now than paying to sit in an aeroplane. I wouldn’t recommend this job at the best of times, now you must be mad to start it.
also in 10 years this job probably won’t exist, or certainly be single pilot. Airbus are already doing research into removing one of the flight crew.
Why is it then that pretty much every pilot made redundant this summer became a delivery driver? Aviation gives you zero transferable skills for use outside aviation.
People need to know what flying is really like, it’s boring, unsociable shift work that you have to pay a huge premium for the privilege of doing.
I look back 10 years at when I was in my office job in a big company in a large city, I got up at a regular sociable time, I had routine, I could make arrangements with family/friends, I had dynamic days at work where I would be constantly learning new things, attending courses, giving presentations, bettering myself on a daily basis professionally. I worked in a large office with lots of people, there were always social events going on, work sports clubs, drinks, gatherings. I was learning to fly at the time as well because I had a real passion for aviation.
fast forward 10 years, I’m LHS LCC, I know I haven’t flown much over summer, but generally speaking; the lack of routine makes fitting anything in my life much harder, the 3am starts are no doubt shaving years off my life. The times I am home I’m normally so shagged from the stupid hours I work I’m no good as a husband/father. Try looking after youngsters then set your alarm for 3am. I hardly know any captains at work, I know the FOs really well, mostly nice chaps but 15 years younger than me. I’m hardly going to go to the pub with them. The few work socials there are I tend to know so few people it’s not that fun. 99% of a normal working day I get to interact with 1 person. The environment is horrible, noise, dirt, dry air, radiation etc. The work is mundane and boring, you’ll soon realise it doesn’t matter where you fly, you’re just flying from 1 bit of tarmac to another, Belfast or Budapest, who cares? You repeat SOPs to the point where your mouth is saying them but your brain isn’t even paying attention. Yes I get paid well, less so now with COVID, but it’s such a dull life. I read about my ex-colleagues who are doing amazing things in my old company, rising the ranks, learning new skills, constantly developing and evolving and compare it to being a taxi driver. Oh and if you had a passion for aviation before flying it’ll be gone in a year or two. I couldn’t think of anything worse now than paying to sit in an aeroplane. I wouldn’t recommend this job at the best of times, now you must be mad to start it.
also in 10 years this job probably won’t exist, or certainly be single pilot. Airbus are already doing research into removing one of the flight crew.
Last edited by Muhammad Antar; 29th Nov 2020 at 07:29.
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Quite a common thread developing here of having an alternative income source to fall back on. I can't help but agree, we've had a decade of exponential employment growth which has followed on from 2 decades of patchy growth. Most pilots in their 30's will have only known a benign job market. At the moment there is an expectation that things will right themselves by 2023-4 and the happy times will return. I'm not so sure. The world may have turned as it does from time to time and this could be a beginning of a new normal with a lot less footfall in the terminals. Plenty of economic, environmental and behavioral reasons for the possible change of habit. I know literally dozens of pilots doing min wage jobs at the moment and have had quite a few discussions about the future. Many have said, particularly the ones over 50, that they wished they had planned for this eventuality more carefully and had a better transferable skill set.
Many have said, particularly the ones over 50, that they wished they had planned for this eventuality more carefully and had a better transferable skill set.
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The answer to the question depends on the experience you had, if you spent your life savings learning to fly, then ended up never getting a job - you're gonna say no.
Back in 1999, I sold my house, quit my job and went off to learn to fly, I was truly passionate about it, I'd loved everything aviation since I was a nipper - then right in the middle of my training 9/11 happened, totally screwed my (and many of my mates) plans. I stuck with it for 5 years, instructed, did air taxi, anything I could get - then one day I thought what the hell am I doing, I'm working my nuts off for less money than I was getting when I was 17 years old! and I quit there and then. That was the best decision I ever made, fortunately I had an I.T career I could sort of fall back on, I was well out of date but paid for some courses, got a job within a year. I love what I do now, I get paid well, get shares in the company, as much training as I need, 32 days holiday, flexible hours, bonus, paid overtime, home by 17:00 every day. And Im treated with respect, something that NEVER happened to me when I was flying.
Would I do the flying again given a chance - no ******* way.
But everyone has a different story, if its your dream you have to try, and who knows - it may work out.
Good luck to everyone & Happy New Year!
Back in 1999, I sold my house, quit my job and went off to learn to fly, I was truly passionate about it, I'd loved everything aviation since I was a nipper - then right in the middle of my training 9/11 happened, totally screwed my (and many of my mates) plans. I stuck with it for 5 years, instructed, did air taxi, anything I could get - then one day I thought what the hell am I doing, I'm working my nuts off for less money than I was getting when I was 17 years old! and I quit there and then. That was the best decision I ever made, fortunately I had an I.T career I could sort of fall back on, I was well out of date but paid for some courses, got a job within a year. I love what I do now, I get paid well, get shares in the company, as much training as I need, 32 days holiday, flexible hours, bonus, paid overtime, home by 17:00 every day. And Im treated with respect, something that NEVER happened to me when I was flying.
Would I do the flying again given a chance - no ******* way.
But everyone has a different story, if its your dream you have to try, and who knows - it may work out.
Good luck to everyone & Happy New Year!
Last edited by sbetts; 31st Dec 2020 at 17:34.
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Negan
You absolutely NAILED it.
Especially the last paragraph. Many of these pilots are there just to show off to the world. Look at me,,, I am a pilot. Look at me staying in awesome hotels and living a Jetset lifestyle.
Honestly, Aviation is further away from jet set life than a trip to the moon.
I love flying. It always gives me a great feeling sitting up front. Working with this beautiful piece of technology. Carrying a big responsibility. Be on top of things, but all you said in your comment is absolutely true.
Anyway, I wish all of you happy new year and lets hope that we can go back to flying soon again. My last flight was 2.2.2020. I miss it.
You absolutely NAILED it.
Especially the last paragraph. Many of these pilots are there just to show off to the world. Look at me,,, I am a pilot. Look at me staying in awesome hotels and living a Jetset lifestyle.
Honestly, Aviation is further away from jet set life than a trip to the moon.
I love flying. It always gives me a great feeling sitting up front. Working with this beautiful piece of technology. Carrying a big responsibility. Be on top of things, but all you said in your comment is absolutely true.
Anyway, I wish all of you happy new year and lets hope that we can go back to flying soon again. My last flight was 2.2.2020. I miss it.
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Would I do it again?
I think I would yes, but not in times like these.
I started flight training in 2011. In the hope 2013 the Market will be better. Which was not the case.
Started working in a small airline operating for the 2nd biggest Airline in Germany on the Bombardier Dash8 Q400 as a Flight Attendant. Then after 20 months moved on to the mainline as a FA.
All together 3.5 years working as a FA. Learned a lot in that job and the Airline was really grateful to us. It was the best employer I ever worked for in my life.
The airline went Bust.
Then worked in service on trains in DB on the ICE trains. Sucked all the way. Luckily FINALLY got my first job on B737 in an ACMI Club. Flew there 2 seasons and moved on from there to a Small ACMI company also on the B737. Worked there 6 months, and then BAM. Corona. Bye-bye flying.
But I am very hard to break, so decided to start my own business together with a business partner. It starts to develop very well and expecting to become successful this year.
In the meanwhile, as I have not much of transferable skills, I am working in one of the Big guys in Parcel Business as a delivery guy and next to it Food delivery in Takeaway as well. Just to pay the bills.
What I would suggest anyone with a passion for Aviation and becoming a pilot. Make sure you dont screw yourself with huge loans and going to L3 and such Scum clubs who rip you off. Study, work and in free time obtain licenses if you really want to become a pilot. Then you will have not so much financial stress in times like these.
My debt is not excessively high, so I can survive pretty well from my present two jobs.
All in all, if you want to become a pilot, make sure you REALLY want it. Otherwise, you waste loads of money and then you will find out that your passion was actually not so great as you thought, but then it is to late.
It is not all about flying a shiny jet. Ray Ban Aviator Glasses, Breitling Watches, having fun with Stewardesses.
It is a tough job, very undervalued by most airlines and you will be treated as such.
I think I would yes, but not in times like these.
I started flight training in 2011. In the hope 2013 the Market will be better. Which was not the case.
Started working in a small airline operating for the 2nd biggest Airline in Germany on the Bombardier Dash8 Q400 as a Flight Attendant. Then after 20 months moved on to the mainline as a FA.
All together 3.5 years working as a FA. Learned a lot in that job and the Airline was really grateful to us. It was the best employer I ever worked for in my life.
The airline went Bust.
Then worked in service on trains in DB on the ICE trains. Sucked all the way. Luckily FINALLY got my first job on B737 in an ACMI Club. Flew there 2 seasons and moved on from there to a Small ACMI company also on the B737. Worked there 6 months, and then BAM. Corona. Bye-bye flying.
But I am very hard to break, so decided to start my own business together with a business partner. It starts to develop very well and expecting to become successful this year.
In the meanwhile, as I have not much of transferable skills, I am working in one of the Big guys in Parcel Business as a delivery guy and next to it Food delivery in Takeaway as well. Just to pay the bills.
What I would suggest anyone with a passion for Aviation and becoming a pilot. Make sure you dont screw yourself with huge loans and going to L3 and such Scum clubs who rip you off. Study, work and in free time obtain licenses if you really want to become a pilot. Then you will have not so much financial stress in times like these.
My debt is not excessively high, so I can survive pretty well from my present two jobs.
All in all, if you want to become a pilot, make sure you REALLY want it. Otherwise, you waste loads of money and then you will find out that your passion was actually not so great as you thought, but then it is to late.
It is not all about flying a shiny jet. Ray Ban Aviator Glasses, Breitling Watches, having fun with Stewardesses.
It is a tough job, very undervalued by most airlines and you will be treated as such.
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One small piece of advice for those fighting an uphill battle now: never lose the long-term perspective. Everyone has hiccups in their careers. I was also not spared spending a year out of flying on one occasion. I know many, many other colleagues, excellent guys who eventually found good long-term flying jobs, who have also spent extended periods in unemployment or working other jobs for one reason or another.
It works differently for everyone. Someone has a very difficult start but progresses quite quickly and successfully afterwards. Someone else starts off swiftly enough but encounters some major setback later on. Some guys spend the best part of a decade flying part-time in GA and working second jobs, but eventually get a jet command on the fourth year of their first airline job. Others walk into a RHS straight out of flight school, but remain stuck right there for 10+ years. Everyone is different. Never suffer comparing yourself to anyone else and thinking that they did better or whatever. You're a unique case in yourself and you have your own path to follow. Don't give up and you'll eventually get where you want.
Stay strong and all the best for the New Year!
It works differently for everyone. Someone has a very difficult start but progresses quite quickly and successfully afterwards. Someone else starts off swiftly enough but encounters some major setback later on. Some guys spend the best part of a decade flying part-time in GA and working second jobs, but eventually get a jet command on the fourth year of their first airline job. Others walk into a RHS straight out of flight school, but remain stuck right there for 10+ years. Everyone is different. Never suffer comparing yourself to anyone else and thinking that they did better or whatever. You're a unique case in yourself and you have your own path to follow. Don't give up and you'll eventually get where you want.
Stay strong and all the best for the New Year!
