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Expenses after License (ATPL)

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Expenses after License (ATPL)

Old 1st Sep 2020, 10:47
  #1 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2019
Location: Madrid
Posts: 24
Expenses after License (ATPL)

In other to ask for a loan for the rest of my integrated training, I wonder What are the costs after getting the ATPL frozen license (with 180h).

-Expenses to enter an interview
-Type Rating (is it common to pay it yourself?)
-Maintaining license (If I want to keep the TR of my school Cessna and Diamond Da42, how long until it expires)
-Any other?

Any representative amounts?


Spid is offline  
Old 1st Sep 2020, 11:50
  #2 (permalink)  
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Wherever I lay my hat
Age: 43
Posts: 559
Is this some kind of joke? You want to do an integrated course?
rudestuff is offline  
Old 1st Sep 2020, 12:37
  #3 (permalink)  

de minimus non curat lex
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: sunny troon
Posts: 1,353
You were given advice in May to cut your losses and end the Integrated ATPL course ground school.
The idea of obtaining a loan to continue training ~ nobody in their right mind would contemplate this given the tsunami.
Modular is the only sensible option. Employment absolute earliest 2022, if a vaccine becomes available in 6 months, and confidence returns.

The greater the general unemployment the less people overall will be flying.

Last edited by parkfell; 1st Sep 2020 at 16:12. Reason: Last paragraph added
parkfell is offline  
Old 25th Sep 2020, 15:35
  #4 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2019
Location: Madrid
Posts: 24
Thanks for your opinion, but it´s out of the topic.

Anyway if you are interested, after contemplating my options I decided to continue with my integrated course and not loose all the money and time invested until that moment. I can´t change to modular, I wish I could. Now the only option is to continue.
I agree... I must be crazy to go on after this tsunami. The ones that are sane will quit and go back to an office job if they are lucky. I won't.

This being said, I would appreciate any constructive answer to my initial question, which I think its an important matter, (and keep the personal opinions out)

Spid is offline  
Old 25th Sep 2020, 15:53
  #5 (permalink)  
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: UK
Posts: 984
Bankruptcy awaits.
Contact Approach is offline  
Old 25th Sep 2020, 20:58
  #6 (permalink)  
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Wandsworth
Posts: 175
Have a look at what L3 just told their cadets today, all over social media and PPRuNe, a £60k extra bill now (£175,000 total training cost) to finish their training and stay valid during COVID19 as the airlines have pulled out.

This isn't an opinion this is the fact, Be prepared to suddenly need a lot of money, the red flags are there. Even if you get a job, no airline is financially secure anymore, Airbus's CEO has said the company is at risk and EasyJet's boss said the entire industry is at risk of collapse.

I wish this all was my opinion, but with my pilot training friends considering bankruptcy I can provide you with the constructive comment of make sure you have another £40k after you finish training available in this climate, if you can't do that you might end up losing more money than you would if you just cut your losses now. If the industry recovers in 5 years time (average glass half full estimate), there will be people starting training in two years time who will graduate in 2025 and be more current than you and may overtake you as the jobs finally become available (godknows what T&Cs). Regardless you'll need to keep your skill up and this costs a good few thousand a year extra, per year.

If you believe this is just an opinion or exaggeration please get in touch and I am sure I can put you in touch with those who are ahead of you in financial ruin who didn't know 12 months ago that this would happen, they won't lie to you about how much they are having to spend to stay afloat or the house they live in is now at risk of repossession, that isn't an opinion, that is fact.

This is the worst crisis in aviation history and all of us are telling you to look at the reality. You are being given the facts. In any interview in the future, be prepared to answer "Why did you start training during the COVID19 pandemic".

Honestly, Good luck.
planesandthings is offline  
Old 26th Sep 2020, 16:13
  #7 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2019
Location: Madrid
Posts: 24
How are those extra 40k £ broken down per year?

I guess TR is a part of it, an other is the medical certificate, what else?

ps: I know we are all very pessimistic, but I’ll insist in keeping topics to an objective tone keeping our pessimistic predictions to our selves.
Spid is offline  
Old 26th Sep 2020, 19:01
  #8 (permalink)  
Join Date: Nov 1999
Posts: 2,307
Spid. It isn’t pessimism, it’s reality. It’s what’s happening now. Pilots with tens of thousands of hours are being made redundant. The giant “heat sink” airlines of the Middle East are laying off thousands and thousands of pilots, all of whom are returning home and preparing to take anything (and there really isn’t anything) on offer. Experienced pilots (whatever that level of experience) are facing radical changes in their near and intermediate term futures. Pilots who are holding on to their jobs are in many cases doing so with fingers and everything else crossed! Covid-19 has been a disaster of unprecedented proportions for this industry. When recovery comes, and I feel that is going to be a long and relatively slow process, airlines will be in a complete “buyers market!” They will be able to pick up experienced crew for a fraction of the cost they did previously. I really cannot see where the impetus is for an airline to operate a cadet programme in that market.

When eventually the time comes that cadet programmes do start up again, I would imagine the requirements will be little changed from where they were last year. There will still be enormous risks and a great deal of competition.

Keeping a licence current isn’t about buying type ratings. Airlines may have expected you to carry the financial risk for that as a new cadet, but they aren’t particularly interested that you have been out and bought one. They are usually in the business of providing training to that end. The fact you may have bought one is likely to have been a “red flag” to many companies!

For experienced pilots, a period of redundancy brings with it a decay of skills, a fall in confidence, and an increase in anxiety. Those things often become more pronounced as time goes on. Six months is a long time to be in this position, and for many pilots 12 months becomes critical as ratings and medicals expire. Recruiting companies usually specify recency requirements of no longer than 12 months.

For a new pilot, the critical expiries are going to be your instrument rating (which may be incorporated into a licence proficiency check) and your medical. In the grand scheme of things these are probably a couple of thousand pounds to renew. The real problem is that the lack of currency experience is going to an exponentially even bigger problem than it is for experienced pilots.

This crisis has created an unenviable situation for everybody, but for new trainee and cadet pilots the risks have materialised in spades.
Bealzebub is offline  
Old 27th Sep 2020, 17:14
  #9 (permalink)  

de minimus non curat lex
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: sunny troon
Posts: 1,353
Originally Posted by Spid View Post
....... I must be crazy to go on after this tsunami......

Given the opinions above when do you anticipate gaining employment
as a professional pilot; which year?
parkfell is offline  
Old 29th Sep 2020, 09:09
  #10 (permalink)  
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Latvia
Age: 33
Posts: 30

I am wondering what kind of Cessna does Your school use, that it requires a typer rating ? (While DA42 is a complex aircraft, I don't think it requires TR either)... Sorry for the irony, couldn't help myself.

Objectively answering Your question:
  • roughly, I'd say 3000 EUR on yearly basis to cover for medical, IR/MEP/SEP revalidation and additional expenses on small Hour Building, training software and else.
  • If You are expecting to get the Type Rating straight ahead, then some significant sum to revalidate that, but I don't know the costs of revalidating TR. Possibly another several K of EUR

Sorry, but I cannot keep my subjective views to myself this time. It is very weird, that being in the middle of Integrated course, You don't know the answers. Part-FCL clearly explains all the license validity periods, difference between Class and Type, medical requirements. These topics are covered in Air Law as well. Airline vacancy descriptions usually list the requirements for the licenses, so You can match these with Part-FCL recency and figure out exactly how much will You need (minimum) to do this, then add extra for risk. Shouldn't be more than several hour internet research to come-up with approximate numbers which match Your situation. Being so eager to join airline industry in short amount of time You should be motivated to do these kind of research all day long and not ask questions on the forum, where most of the answers still be subjective. I guess the reason You are asking and not researching is because if someone tells You the number, and it doesn't meet Your expectations, then it will be easy to keep hope that person is just wrong, and it might be better than that, but if You do Your own math based on real researched facts, then it will be a real thing and You'll have to change the plan which is harder than just hope.

Nobody is trying to discourage You or telling to give up on Your dream. But people do tell facts, and I suggest You to be reasonable with Your choice. As far as I could figure out from different posts Your main goal is to get license as fast as possible. You can do this with modular course, alright. The difference is that You'll have to plan and organize all the stuff by Yourself. But I have seen people going through all modules in 2 Years. They could have done it faster if we had a better weather here in Eastern Europe . Anyway the point is - Modular doesn't mean slower. Modular means - more flexible, no uniform and fancy cadetship, more self-discipline, a lot of decision-making and change of plans. Don't be afraid of that, and You'll be where You want to be . After all the last 3 skills are what's really matters in the cockpit.
s4ex is offline  
Old 29th Sep 2020, 11:25
  #11 (permalink)  
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: UK
Posts: 984
You are literally better off taking that loan to vegas and having a memorable month you can tell your grandkids about.
Contact Approach is offline  
Old 29th Sep 2020, 21:59
  #12 (permalink)  
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: UK
Posts: 227

Trust us on here... In this climate it is better to walk away with a loss of however much versus complete all of the additional training and leave with an even bigger loss when you realise the industry at the other end isn't any where close to what it was. If you can, delay your training until things pick up again as you'll stand more of a firm chance then. I have had friends and acquaintances who have lose their jobs in the past few weeks. I have managed to hang on to mine but only just - literally by the skin of my teeth I reckon. The industry is so bleak.

Can I just ask, where are you training and why did they not explain the expected costs to you prior to you signing up? This is all stuff you should've ideally been told about or advised of. In trying to give you a clearer answer though:

1. Annual Medical Costs (increase upwards to £500+ depending on what is due each year).
2. IR revalidation costs (alternates bi-annual between sim revalidation and real aircraft reval/renewal).
3. Interview costs (presuming there are any jobs going) are anywhere from £0-500 per interview depending on which airline and whether you need to account for accomodation.
4. Type Rating - You need the IR current to do one in the first place, least not a medical, and they can vary in cost too. To give you an idea the typical cost for a newbie to get a TR is around £20-30,000 for the big low-costs in Europe.

In this particular climate you're going to be lucky to find an airline paying anything for you, especially when there will be surplus excess crew out there willing. As others have also alluded to, keeping current is vital. Many airlines want 'x' amount of hours within the past few months at the point of you applying. If things recover in say 2023 a graduate in 2023 will be far more likely to get an interview than one graduating in 2021 without any additional flying hours since graduation. Just food for though.
gbotley is offline  
Old 30th Sep 2020, 09:04
  #13 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2019
Location: Madrid
Posts: 24
Thanks for the constructive answers and advice.

For the rest, I understand that deep climate of pessimism and negativity. As a future pilot, given this situation, I'd also discourage any potential competition as there is no room for any more. So don't worry, its normal, but blowing steam off in forums like this and social media is not going to make things better. I came here for a couple of answers, nowI´ll stay away from it, as this platform used in the wrong way I see becomes highly toxic, and having my official exams in a month I need the focus and the motivation, none of which I'll found here obviously.

Spid is offline  
Old 30th Sep 2020, 11:17
  #14 (permalink)  
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Palmas
Posts: 162
Make sure you get your medical because you are obviously delusional.

Hawker400 is offline  
Old 30th Sep 2020, 12:13
  #15 (permalink)  

PPRuNe Handmaiden
Join Date: Feb 1997
Location: Duit On Mon Dei
Posts: 4,358
I'm a union rep for our bizjet company. We were lucky in that we could rehire the crews that were made redundant. My husband who works for easyJet has taken a 50% pay/roster cut to ensure no crews are forced out of the company.
Many of my friends who work for various airlines around the world (UK, Europe, USA, Australia, Hong Kong) have been made redundant and probably will not fly again (late 40s and early 50s).
We're not being pessimistic. We're being realistic. Yes, aviation cycles through boom/bust periods every 10 years. In the past, there was a bolt hole, whether it be China, Middle East or the loco's in Europe.

There are no bolt holes.

I am not saying never learn to fly. Certainly not. However, keeping licenses current after training is very expensive. Timing is every thing. I have seen in the trades the prospect of no significant increase until 2024-2025. I am sure there'll be a modest increase before then, but the airlines have now a lot of crew on part time that they can recall back to full time.

However, it is your money (or someone's money) and if you want to chuck it at an organisation that really couldn't care less about you once you've finished. Crack on.
redsnail is offline  
Old 30th Sep 2020, 14:00
  #16 (permalink)  
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: London
Posts: 123

You’re either trolling or you literally lack the mental capacity to grasp what is occurring in the industry right now. If it’s the latter then good luck with your exams, you’ll certainly need it.
FlyingGreek is offline  
Old 30th Sep 2020, 14:36
  #17 (permalink)  

de minimus non curat lex
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: sunny troon
Posts: 1,353
His earlier post (18 May 2020. 1225 refers) reveals that a house jointly owned with his sister has been remortgaged ( 80,000€ ) to pay for the course and he recognises that no flying jobs will be possible on course completion. 3 to 10 years he surmises.
He asks for advice as to whether this Integrated Course is a wise move; he receives what I regard as sound advice for other participators, only to be told it is not what he wants to hear. So why ask in the first place.
Redsnail sums it up beautifully.

HAWKER 400 : Add the Trick Cyclist to the medical revalidation process?
parkfell is offline  
Old 30th Sep 2020, 16:00
  #18 (permalink)  
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: UK
Posts: 227
Those who dream seldom remove rose tinted spectacles.

No one is blowing off steam, they’re just in disbelief I would guess.

I completed an integrated course a few years back and let me tell you... I was mad putting up that investment back then given no guarantee of a job, but the industry was booming. It took me over a year to get to the right hand seat. The job market while booming, was damn slow. Sim capacity was maxed out. In today’s climate though, you’d be insane to risk so much.

Spit, we’re not being unhelpful to you, you’re simply noticing we’re not giving you the answers you want to hear. There’s a clear difference. You need to be a realist in this industry to survive.

Can you realistically see yourself being paid to fly for any aviation related employer in the capacity of pilot within the next 2 to 3 years? I think you already know the answer but you continue to head down that dead end path.

Don’t ask questions if you don’t want useful answers from those with insight. Personally, would I recommend an integrated course right now? No way!

It’ll be a hell of a lot easier to service debt you may already have, than to continue and service the final sum with little to show for it. My debt is over £100k, I am lucky to still be in a job. As a poster above alludes, I too have also taken a 50% pay cut. You’ll be lucky to earn above £20k to be a new pilot for quite some time. I barely cover my expenses anymore!

Could I have foreseen this covid pandemic, no. Should you continue with knowledge of its existence, no.

Hopefully you get the gist, but what the heck.., it’s your; or someone else’s money that you’re putting on the line. If it’s the latter; I pray they’re informed on the risks.
gbotley is offline  
Old 30th Sep 2020, 23:09
  #19 (permalink)  
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Europe
Posts: 601
You'd better make sure that you've taken out a seriously good training costs insurance if you insist on going integrated regardless all evidence suggesting against it. Why? Well, that's another unpopular point to consider:

No flight school is completely financially secure, no matter what the salesman tells you. You, as a student, will never, ever know their true financial status. And, given the unfortunate circumstances surrounding COVID, I would not be surprised to see one or multiple integrated training providers fail.

What could that mean to you if, Heaven forbid, it happens while you're in training? You've paid a six-digit sum upfront - and now you have no chance to get its worth in terms of training. To make matters worse, you don't technically hold any qualification until the last day. So, you have to go for a jolly to the CAA, praying that they recognise as much of what you've already done as possible. This is not a quick and easy process. And then, if and when you're lucky enough, you'll have to fork out another big chunk of cash to a modular school to finish off and get a licence.

You think it cannot get any worse? Sure it can. I know a couple of guys from EASA member states who were caught up in such a situation. Guess what? Their competent authorities didn't recognise any of the training they had done on the integrated course, sending them right back to square one, with no money and no qualification. Can you imagine what's it like to pay for an integrated course and end up with no money and no licence, not even a PPL? And it gets especially awkward if you did it on borrowed money and you have no solid source of income yourself. That's how lives of entire families get ruined.

Hence - make sure that your training insurance covers comprehensively a loss of training as a result of failure of the training provider. Best of all, get a lawyer to read through the policy and give you a professional opinion on whether it would be possible to recover your money in this scenario. It sounds hypothetical and remotely likely - but only until it gets real. And people have already burned themselves badly on that, as I previously mentioned. So, do everything within your remit in order not to become the next one.
PilotLZ is offline  
Old 1st Oct 2020, 06:32
  #20 (permalink)  
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Uk
Posts: 0
I wish him the best of luck.

God loves a tryer
Meester proach is offline  

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