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CAE Skype Interview this week. Help

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CAE Skype Interview this week. Help

Old 3rd Jun 2020, 13:53
  #21 (permalink)  
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: galway ireland
Posts: 119
Originally Posted by Lammy_pie View Post
Getting PPRuNe notifications saying my inbox is full but there's nothing in there? Am I missing something? Sorry to sound dim, but very new to the site.
Thanks so much for all of the responses guys, the replies will literally be life and finance changing! The whole family is very very grateful!
Lammy keep posting and as you post they will then enable your PM function- not sure what the minimum posts are but perhaps someone can advise?
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Old 3rd Jun 2020, 14:03
  #22 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2020
Location: Midlands
Posts: 6
Thanks guys. I can see the responses on the thread, but Inbox and Sent Items definitely empty.
We have focussed our attentions so much on Integrated ATPL, but not so much on Modular.
Other than PPRuNe, could you recommend anywhere that could offer a neutral opinion on this. We're in the Midlands (Tamworth area) so not too far from Coventry who I understand do this. However want where possible to avoid a biased opinion...
Thanks again.
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Old 3rd Jun 2020, 19:24
  #23 (permalink)  
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Europe
Posts: 597
Originally Posted by Negan View Post
There is no jobs available right now. Don't give the big Integrated the schools the satisfaction of your £100k.

Just get him to do a PPL at a local flight club somewhere and see how the job market is in one year.
There are no airline jobs whatsoever now, regardless your experience, except for the odd cargo or corporate gig that gets instantly snapped up by someone with relevant experience. Hopefully, if we assume that the acute phase of the medical crisis is getting behind us, in 6 to 12 months there will be limited openings for experienced crew. After that, give it another year or two for the market to soak up everyone who dropped out in the past 3 months. So, for the next 2 or 3 years, opportunities for new joiners with no experience will be pretty much non-existent since there will be more than enough experienced pilots to fill the vacancies.

You can choose to start your full-time course now and then spend one or two years struggling to stay current and lamenting your choice - or you can approach it rationally and end up far better off in the long-term run. If you are finishing your A-levels now, apply for university in the autumn and spend the gap year getting experience. Even the proverbial job stacking shelves or one as a barista, cashier or delivery man will introduce you to the world of work and give you a thing or two to talk about in an airline interview at a later stage. You can also do volunteering if you are inclined towards such a thing, it's also a valuable experience. In the meantime, do your PPL. Maybe start some small weekend job with the flying club. Something as simple as manning a reception desk will give you valuable exposure and contacts. Work hard and play hard at university and keep a watchful eye on the industry. If it's picking up nicely, there might be cadetships out there towards your final year. If there aren't or you decide that that's not your thing - fair enough, keep studying and flying by the modular route in your downtime. By graduation time you can be either done with it or within a couple of months from the finish line - and you will have spent your time and money far more wisely than if you jump into it right now. Your expected working life is long enough to fit an awful lot of flying, especially with flying close to the 900-hour annual limit becoming the norm at more and more airlines. So, delaying flight training a bit and ramping up on your other skills and qualifications won't do you any long-term harm. Quite the opposite, you will end up in a far better position in terms of employability, transferable skills and life experience in the end of it.
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Old 3rd Jun 2020, 19:55
  #24 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Timbuktu
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PilotLZ makes good, logical points.
Ignore him! Follow your dreams!
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Old 4th Jun 2020, 20:04
  #25 (permalink)  
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Bristol, England
Age: 62
Posts: 1,602
Other than PPRuNe, could you recommend anywhere that could offer a neutral opinion on this.
BALPA have a leaflet and some advice here
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Old 4th Jun 2020, 22:37
  #26 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Amantido
Posts: 660
My suggestion is to start your PPL now possibly at a flying club where you can remain a member and study for your ATPL right after that, but take it easy and join flying tours across Europe.
I am not familiar with the requirements to obtain the CB-IR, but if you can do it, get it done as soon as possible and continue flying across Europe with an IR for your hour building with friends. Once the ATPL exams are sorted out you could get your FI rating and finish off with CPL and MEP and ME-IR when things start picking up.

There is no rush and there is all the time to make this enjoyable.
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Old 5th Jun 2020, 14:48
  #27 (permalink)  
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: Event Horizon
Posts: 70
Originally Posted by Lammy_pie View Post
We do need to look more at the modular options also. Integrated seemed like the best option before Covid19, but clearly we're in a different world now...
You only have to read the threads on here about CAE and L3 to see that it's fair to say integrated hasn't been the best option for many years, but people like hearing what they want to hear and ignore the cold hard facts. As you've only looked at integrated schools that means you will have been fed the usual marketing BS of "integrated training is the only guarenteed way into a flight deck". That was the opinion perhaps 10-15 years ago, but modular training has been fighting back very strongly over the last decade and I would argue is easily on par if not slightly more popular now with trainees.

If you're in Coventry, (apart from Aeros at coverntry obviously) take a trip to Tatenhill in Burton-upton-Trent if it's not too far. Great school, aircraft, facilities and instructors. I know a number of people who trained with them (myself included for hours building and night rating) for a fraction of the cost CAE will charge, all now sit the RHS of a shiny jet.

As others have said, be patient, take your time. I can't see any airlines seriously looking at hiring new low hours cadets any time in the next 2-3 years, theres not rush. Go modular, save yourself a fortune and have a nice holiday at the end to treat yourself.
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Old 7th Jun 2020, 08:14
  #28 (permalink)  
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: UK
Posts: 16
Maybe go and do a PPL if you’re really keen, but I wouldn’t pursue professional flight training of any sorts for at least a year until you can get a better idea of this crazy situation we’re all in. Tbh I wouldn’t even do a PPL now, because you won’t be starting flight training any time soon so wouldn’t want your skills to fade or having to spend money just to keep current for a while.
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Old 7th Jun 2020, 17:48
  #29 (permalink)  
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: UK
Posts: 243
Looking into what is going on at BA and other major airlines in Britain regarding T&Cs, I certainly wouldn't be paying £100k for training. There's likely (in Europe at least) going to be a decline in T&Cs for the foreseeable future as airlines take advantage of a pilot employment market that is in their favour. If the OP's son has an EU passport/European language skills, I'd be tempted to get a backup career outside of aviation and keep an eye out for any sponsored programmes (though it's likely these will be years away). As things stand, I'd only consider a move into flying if an airline paid for my training, there's too much risk of unemployment/dire T&Cs at the moment.

I wouldn't go further than a PPL at the moment, it's fairly flexible in that it'll provide an idea of aptitude and give the OPs son an idea of whether or not he enjoys flying.

In the meantime, take a look at getting involved in various aviation organisations such as HCAP and the Air League, networking is important in the industry.

Lastly, don't pay large sums of money up front for flight training.
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Old 7th Jun 2020, 18:25
  #30 (permalink)  
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: The Back of Beyond
Posts: 0
Absolutely, what Chris the Robot said. You'd be absolutely mad to start airline career track program right now. In fact, as a recruiter with a major airline, I would probably ask for you to have your head examined for defects. You would be absolutely mad.

Indeed, go and have some fun in a GA with a PPL for the next few years.

It'll be at least 5 years before the industry gets through the backlog of highly experience pilots and takes on 250 hour guys again. It'll happen, but it's years away. I would guesstimate five years.
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Old 7th Jun 2020, 22:28
  #31 (permalink)  
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: UK
Posts: 927
Some good advice on here. Pay close attention, it will serve you well.
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Old 8th Jun 2020, 09:32
  #32 (permalink)  
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: UK
Posts: 22
There is no telling the wannabee zombie army. Forward they march into financial oblivion and unemployment.
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Old 8th Jun 2020, 11:16
  #33 (permalink)  

Uncle Pete
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: Frodsham Cheshire
Posts: 913
I would suggest you contact the Young Pilots group at the Honourable Company of Air Pilots who will offer advice and support. Not sure if your son has undergone any aptitude testing and would strongly recommend the Hon Company's aptitude testing scheme at RAF Cranwell. All the information is available on their website.
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Old 8th Jun 2020, 14:09
  #34 (permalink)  
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: UK
Posts: 471
My airline has for the past number of years had 1-2 classes of cadets undertaking integrated training in Jerez. Thousands applied for the 20 or so places that were up for grabs each year and applicants were from across the EU. We also recruit direct entry pilots and a very small number of "frozen atpl" zero experience pilots. Since March all cadets that were in Jerez have had their training contracts terminated. We have stopped recruiting along with just about every airline across the globe. The small number of contract copilots (employed by a 3rd party) had their contracts terminated. We are currently on 50% of pay and many are out of currency due to the limited flying available. Many are under extreme financial hardship. We have been flying 5% of our planned schedule for the past few months although this is now slowly increasing towards 30%. On the next roster we are hoping to see the schedule improve further to approximately 50% but this is still unclear. It should be evident that we are significantly over crewed and will be for the forecast 2-3 years. At this stage our union is in negotiations with our employer and it is unclear if a "BA esq land grab" will take place but time will tell. As we are a unionised airline there are agreements and precedents in place for the rehire of those pilots that have had contracts terminated when and if the market improves. Many of the larger unionised airlines have these and so there will be a long queue.

It would be pure madness to be even entertaining the idea of entering this industry at this time.

I would strongly suggest you undertake some detailed research into the industry as a whole. Start with reading through the various threads in the T&E section of this forum. The largest employer of cadets from the likes of CAE is most likely a certain low cost carrier. There is much detailed information on their current contracts and work practices. I will leave it to yourself to form your own opinion as to whether embarking on a career with these types of bottom feeder employers is something that you would wish on your child.

Advise your son to undertake a PPL if he really wishes to and then find a suitable career/trade so that if he wishes to undertake flying training if and when the market improves that he has a contingency plan to fall back on.
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Old 8th Jun 2020, 23:27
  #35 (permalink)  
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Up north
Age: 31
Posts: 43
Please for the love of God don't be stupid to start training now, especially with an expensive integrated course, unless you have enough money and simply don't care about flushing 100k down the toilet. The 2008 crisis was nothing compared to this and while i started my training in 2010 and finishing in 2012, I was the first one from our group to be employed in 2016. Sorry about the many whom never made it.
The airline recruiters are not stupid, please tell me in 6 years time if you get super lucky to get an interview, how you will explain your total lack of judgement for starting now?

Last edited by Pirrex; 9th Jun 2020 at 07:42. Reason: Correction
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Old 15th Jun 2020, 16:37
  #36 (permalink)  
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: UK
Posts: 243
One thing that will be interesting to see is how much the big integrated training schools cut their course fees to try and get people in the door. A lot of the money they were bringing in was pure profit, even after the amount they spend on marketing/advertising/open days.

I still wouldn't touch any self-funded training beyond PPL with a bargepole and to be honest, I'd be very cautious around any fully airline funded programme in the extremely unlikely event that such a programme were to appear in the near future.
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Old 15th Jun 2020, 18:52
  #37 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jul 2019
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Originally Posted by Chris the Robot View Post
I still wouldn't touch any self-funded training beyond PPL with a bargepole and to be honest, I'd be very cautious around any fully airline funded programme in the extremely unlikely event that such a programme were to appear in the near future.
The months just prior to the pandemic I went through a few assessment centers and interviews for airline sponsored cadet programs. I was fortunate enough to be offered a spot by one of the airlines. I haven't heard anything since then, but was recently informed that I could begin training at the end of the year. This is a part-sponsored program, so about 15K is payed by the student. Financially, the airline is doing well and they seem quite optimistic about the future. I was looking forward to this program for months and would love to start training, but I am concerned about the points mentioned in this thread. What's your opinion in this case? I wouldn't finish training until 2+ years into the future, would things improve by then? Thanks!

Last edited by boing797; 15th Jun 2020 at 20:57.
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Old 15th Jun 2020, 20:48
  #38 (permalink)  
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: UK
Posts: 243
It sounds like quite a few variables going on, I'm a PPL student at the moment however from what I have gleaned over the years from various contacts I'd say that you'd want to ask the following questions:

Who has said you can begin training at the end of the year and under what conditions will that take place?
Has the airline announced/made any pilot redundancies/furloughs? If so, it's to be expected that these will get priority ahead of you when it comes to recruitment, especially if a union is involved.
Is the sponsorship still being offered as originally described, are there any changes?
What happens if the airline doesn't take the trainees on as first officers at the end of training? There could be several reasons for this so each one might have a different clause and/or contractual outcome.
I presume that it's an airline-specific MPL programme on a common aircraft type, if the airline doesn't take you on at the end of training, how transferable is the training? Bear in mind that it's much easier to transfer an fATPL than an MPL.
How financially viable is the airline, you've said it seems healthy but have you been through the financial results/public accounts at all?
Has the airline said what sort of contract you'd be on at the end of training? They could offer you a zero hours contract and give you little/no flying time.
How easy would it be to resume your current career if you weren't offered a place at the end of training? How much do you have to lose by giving up your current role?

I think it's impossible to predict how the pandemic will develop, whether there will be a second wave etc. so don't put base all of your future plans around this specific programme.

A couple of recent events to consider are:
An orange carrier who also operates the A320 didn't take on trainees at the end of their MPL training. Those trainees have over £100k of debt, it may be a lot more money than the amount listed above but regardless of whether it's €15k or £120k it still needs to be serviced somehow.
A large operator of the Dash-8 recently entered administration, their MPL cadets who were being/had been trained on the Dash-8 didn't have many options since there are not many other operators of the type.

There's probably various other things to consider but that's what I can think off of the top of my head.

Last edited by Chris the Robot; 16th Jun 2020 at 16:13.
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Old 15th Jun 2020, 21:27
  #39 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jul 2019
Location: .
Posts: 13
Lots of important points to consider. I'll have to take a closer look at some of these. Thanks for the response!
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Old 16th Jun 2020, 06:30
  #40 (permalink)  

de minimus non curat lex
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: sunny troon
Posts: 1,353
WIZZ are being the most optimistic when talking about recovery, probably with Ryanair next, then Easy. BA with 4 years+.
Keep the day job, or continue with Higher education.

Just now, be extremely cautious and consider the modular route, as the financial risk is less, with you in charge of the process. But before spending money on training, obtain your Class One Medical.

A clearer picture will emerge in 6 months. Wait until then, as both Oxford & Imperial (London) are optimistic about vaccine availability this year.

Avoid smooooth talking snake oil salesmen. They seem to be very successful at enticing junior birdmen into hasty courses of action.
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