Race discrimination in european airlines ??
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: Northern Europe
Posts: 42
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just for laughs. My ancestry emerges from Turkish region with a little mix from Siberia. For some reason i got blue eyes , blond hair and white skin but very tribal south eastern name that no one in the airline could pronounce . I changed my name and surname to show nice gesture of integration and from that moment things went nuts. For a year and half I was number 1 topic to mention in the flight deck after takeoff briefing. It made me famous.
I couldn't cope with my fame and joined another major airline but some days later they found out about my name and fired me for "failing security check". I ended up being rehired by my former airline where i will enjoy my celebrity clown status till end of days
I couldn't cope with my fame and joined another major airline but some days later they found out about my name and fired me for "failing security check". I ended up being rehired by my former airline where i will enjoy my celebrity clown status till end of days
Last edited by Luray; 21st Apr 2020 at 16:37. Reason: grammar mistake
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: London
Age: 37
Posts: 106
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Futurepilot1991 -- some of your comments are really quite immature for someone who is 35 (or 28). That really is a bad attitude to have and I hope your anonymous keyboard warrior persona stays in the bedroom, but it does give a clue to your thought processes. You won't make it to the RHS if you display any of these tendencies in the real world.
There are captains who would end your job and possibly your career if you spoke like that to them. Interpersonal skills are as important as technical skills. I wish you luck but I fear you may be found out a long time before you get any where near a commercial cockpit.
There are captains who would end your job and possibly your career if you spoke like that to them. Interpersonal skills are as important as technical skills. I wish you luck but I fear you may be found out a long time before you get any where near a commercial cockpit.
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Canada
Age: 40
Posts: 433
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Everything can be summed up to this post I think. Treating others with respect (the most basic thing in life, even though too many forget about it) is not replying to their advices with such sentences. People here take on their time to help you, so being patronizing won't be of any help nor will it inspire sympathy. We are very happy to know that you can speak 4 languages, just bear in mind that there are excellent pilots who only speak 1, and for sure people who speak 10+ but could never be able to fly.
À bon entendeur
P.S. : And anyway, your intelligence and ability to succeed in aviation is not represented by your final high school average. (In France 15/20 is obtained by 20%+ of the candidates...)
À bon entendeur
P.S. : And anyway, your intelligence and ability to succeed in aviation is not represented by your final high school average. (In France 15/20 is obtained by 20%+ of the candidates...)
de minimus non curat lex
Futurepilot1991 -- some of your comments are really quite immature for someone who is 35 (or 28). That really is a bad attitude to have and I hope your anonymous keyboard warrior persona stays in the bedroom, but it does give a clue to your thought processes. You won't make it to the RHS if you display any of these tendencies in the real world.
There are captains who would end your job and possibly your career if you spoke like that to them. Interpersonal skills are as important as technical skills. I wish you luck but I fear you may be found out a long time before you get any where near a commercial cockpit.
There are captains who would end your job and possibly your career if you spoke like that to them. Interpersonal skills are as important as technical skills. I wish you luck but I fear you may be found out a long time before you get any where near a commercial cockpit.
Many moons ago I ran the CPL/IR upgrade courses under CAP509 at PIK.
One of the first things I said on day one of a new intake was that they should regard this as a 9 week interview process.
The vast majority were fine and are now Captains around the world.
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: EU
Posts: 162
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Oh, you were serious? You really shouldn't be proud of your high school diploma of all things ... Christ on a bike man, you're 28 years old, you'd get fired from asda with that rotten attitude of yours.
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: all over Europe
Age: 40
Posts: 109
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
1 Post
Well. I have worked in several countries, some of which have a VERY different mentality and values than mine. While I would never use the r-word, I am pretty sure I have been subject to an attitude that ranked me somewhere considerably lower than the natives, especially since I had to work for a living instead of enjoying the luxurious citizen status there. So that exists everywhere, and is by no means exclusive to Europe. If you ever heard some Chinese comment on Africans for example, you´d have no further questions. That said, even if everybody tries to do their best to remove that from their attitude, there is still a bottom line of values that are not racist but legitimate in order to make things work, and I think we have already seen it in this thread in the form of "pride culture" vs. "criticism culture".
Assuming both are legitimate (although personally, I see the oppressive side of "pride culture" as an objective problem especially towards weaker groups, women etc.), this is what may be behind many experiences with "racism": not being on the same page of the book. I will give an example: My wife is a doctor and once had a younger "pride culture" colleague in residency. He ended up f**** up an operation in an inexcuseable way: not only did he alter the plan for the operation, he altered it to include a surgical technique he was not cleared for on his own, and he also performed it wrongly and punctuated heart tissue. And then while the patient was turning critical and the senior nurse stopped the show and called my wife as a senior doctor, he avoided answering clearly, so that the other staff had to find out what was wrong with the patient. Patient made it, but it was about to go wrong. The junior doc did not contribute to clarifying the situation. Now why did he do those things? He was certainly not an evil person, but the debriefing showed that he COULD not admit himself to be anything but the king of the hill. It was so ingrained in his self concept that this is what he owed to himself, his family, his role etc. They could not write this in the concluding report of course but it was the pivot of the problem: his idea of himself, and his willingness to aggressively defend this idea against the reality of his limits.
So when he ran into a situation that needed to be altered, he didn´t ask for supervision. When that alteration required a special technique, he didnt call a senior doctor and say "I cannot do this yet". When he made a grave mistake, he did not admit it, stop himself and call for assistance. And when he WAS stopped, he was not able to tell the story of how he made three big fat mistakes. And I literally mean "able to". "This was all my fault, nobody elses". "I have to correct myself". "I am sorry". "This was beyond my abilities". "I am not yet at the top of my game". where not part of his inner vocabulary. The only self image he could muster and bear, was "I am second to none and always right". Whoever told him that wasn´t true (for anyone!), had a problem and was being unfair or respectless.
Now, in Europe in general, some degree of self restraint and humbleness are part of the desired values in a human being. Do we have people who lack both, yes we do but they are regarded as slightly deviant. An aggressive "pride and honour" concept of oneself will rank somewhere on our "psychological immaturity" scale. While in other places, it is the only way to get anything in life at all. That is not racism, it is diversity. Some things will simply not integrate with some other things and vice versa. In critical functions such as aviation, being self critical, putting yourself second, and being able to handle AND admit/discuss your own mistakes and inabilities PUBLICLY, are absolutely mandatory to achieve proficiency. You will also receive same criticism from others / externals. Situations such as live flight lessons, assessment for cadet programs etc. will screen you for these things. I think that is what some of the posters here meant: you cannot give the impression that you react emotionally upset. It is a show stopper. You could be the most tall, blonde, blue eyed Swedish posterboy in the world, if they feel that you have a too big, unhealthy ego, you are out.
So, surprise: to be considered for a demanding and critical teamplayer role in Europe, you need to be European enough in your overall attitude. In synch with how things are done.
Assuming both are legitimate (although personally, I see the oppressive side of "pride culture" as an objective problem especially towards weaker groups, women etc.), this is what may be behind many experiences with "racism": not being on the same page of the book. I will give an example: My wife is a doctor and once had a younger "pride culture" colleague in residency. He ended up f**** up an operation in an inexcuseable way: not only did he alter the plan for the operation, he altered it to include a surgical technique he was not cleared for on his own, and he also performed it wrongly and punctuated heart tissue. And then while the patient was turning critical and the senior nurse stopped the show and called my wife as a senior doctor, he avoided answering clearly, so that the other staff had to find out what was wrong with the patient. Patient made it, but it was about to go wrong. The junior doc did not contribute to clarifying the situation. Now why did he do those things? He was certainly not an evil person, but the debriefing showed that he COULD not admit himself to be anything but the king of the hill. It was so ingrained in his self concept that this is what he owed to himself, his family, his role etc. They could not write this in the concluding report of course but it was the pivot of the problem: his idea of himself, and his willingness to aggressively defend this idea against the reality of his limits.
So when he ran into a situation that needed to be altered, he didn´t ask for supervision. When that alteration required a special technique, he didnt call a senior doctor and say "I cannot do this yet". When he made a grave mistake, he did not admit it, stop himself and call for assistance. And when he WAS stopped, he was not able to tell the story of how he made three big fat mistakes. And I literally mean "able to". "This was all my fault, nobody elses". "I have to correct myself". "I am sorry". "This was beyond my abilities". "I am not yet at the top of my game". where not part of his inner vocabulary. The only self image he could muster and bear, was "I am second to none and always right". Whoever told him that wasn´t true (for anyone!), had a problem and was being unfair or respectless.
Now, in Europe in general, some degree of self restraint and humbleness are part of the desired values in a human being. Do we have people who lack both, yes we do but they are regarded as slightly deviant. An aggressive "pride and honour" concept of oneself will rank somewhere on our "psychological immaturity" scale. While in other places, it is the only way to get anything in life at all. That is not racism, it is diversity. Some things will simply not integrate with some other things and vice versa. In critical functions such as aviation, being self critical, putting yourself second, and being able to handle AND admit/discuss your own mistakes and inabilities PUBLICLY, are absolutely mandatory to achieve proficiency. You will also receive same criticism from others / externals. Situations such as live flight lessons, assessment for cadet programs etc. will screen you for these things. I think that is what some of the posters here meant: you cannot give the impression that you react emotionally upset. It is a show stopper. You could be the most tall, blonde, blue eyed Swedish posterboy in the world, if they feel that you have a too big, unhealthy ego, you are out.
So, surprise: to be considered for a demanding and critical teamplayer role in Europe, you need to be European enough in your overall attitude. In synch with how things are done.
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Madrid
Posts: 44
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well. I have worked in several countries, some of which have a VERY different mentality and values than mine. While I would never use the r-word, I am pretty sure I have been subject to an attitude that ranked me somewhere considerably lower than the natives, especially since I had to work for a living instead of enjoying the luxurious citizen status there. So that exists everywhere, and is by no means exclusive to Europe. If you ever heard some Chinese comment on Africans for example, you´d have no further questions. That said, even if everybody tries to do their best to remove that from their attitude, there is still a bottom line of values that are not racist but legitimate in order to make things work, and I think we have already seen it in this thread in the form of "pride culture" vs. "criticism culture".
Assuming both are legitimate (although personally, I see the oppressive side of "pride culture" as an objective problem especially towards weaker groups, women etc.), this is what may be behind many experiences with "racism": not being on the same page of the book. I will give an example: My wife is a doctor and once had a younger "pride culture" colleague in residency. He ended up f**** up an operation in an inexcuseable way: not only did he alter the plan for the operation, he altered it to include a surgical technique he was not cleared for on his own, and he also performed it wrongly and punctuated heart tissue. And then while the patient was turning critical and the senior nurse stopped the show and called my wife as a senior doctor, he avoided answering clearly, so that the other staff had to find out what was wrong with the patient. Patient made it, but it was about to go wrong. The junior doc did not contribute to clarifying the situation. Now why did he do those things? He was certainly not an evil person, but the debriefing showed that he COULD not admit himself to be anything but the king of the hill. It was so ingrained in his self concept that this is what he owed to himself, his family, his role etc. They could not write this in the concluding report of course but it was the pivot of the problem: his idea of himself, and his willingness to aggressively defend this idea against the reality of his limits.
So when he ran into a situation that needed to be altered, he didn´t ask for supervision. When that alteration required a special technique, he didnt call a senior doctor and say "I cannot do this yet". When he made a grave mistake, he did not admit it, stop himself and call for assistance. And when he WAS stopped, he was not able to tell the story of how he made three big fat mistakes. And I literally mean "able to". "This was all my fault, nobody elses". "I have to correct myself". "I am sorry". "This was beyond my abilities". "I am not yet at the top of my game". where not part of his inner vocabulary. The only self image he could muster and bear, was "I am second to none and always right". Whoever told him that wasn´t true (for anyone!), had a problem and was being unfair or respectless.
Now, in Europe in general, some degree of self restraint and humbleness are part of the desired values in a human being. Do we have people who lack both, yes we do but they are regarded as slightly deviant. An aggressive "pride and honour" concept of oneself will rank somewhere on our "psychological immaturity" scale. While in other places, it is the only way to get anything in life at all. That is not racism, it is diversity. Some things will simply not integrate with some other things and vice versa. In critical functions such as aviation, being self critical, putting yourself second, and being able to handle AND admit/discuss your own mistakes and inabilities PUBLICLY, are absolutely mandatory to achieve proficiency. You will also receive same criticism from others / externals. Situations such as live flight lessons, assessment for cadet programs etc. will screen you for these things. I think that is what some of the posters here meant: you cannot give the impression that you react emotionally upset. It is a show stopper. You could be the most tall, blonde, blue eyed Swedish posterboy in the world, if they feel that you have a too big, unhealthy ego, you are out.
So, surprise: to be considered for a demanding and critical teamplayer role in Europe, you need to be European enough in your overall attitude. In synch with how things are done.
Assuming both are legitimate (although personally, I see the oppressive side of "pride culture" as an objective problem especially towards weaker groups, women etc.), this is what may be behind many experiences with "racism": not being on the same page of the book. I will give an example: My wife is a doctor and once had a younger "pride culture" colleague in residency. He ended up f**** up an operation in an inexcuseable way: not only did he alter the plan for the operation, he altered it to include a surgical technique he was not cleared for on his own, and he also performed it wrongly and punctuated heart tissue. And then while the patient was turning critical and the senior nurse stopped the show and called my wife as a senior doctor, he avoided answering clearly, so that the other staff had to find out what was wrong with the patient. Patient made it, but it was about to go wrong. The junior doc did not contribute to clarifying the situation. Now why did he do those things? He was certainly not an evil person, but the debriefing showed that he COULD not admit himself to be anything but the king of the hill. It was so ingrained in his self concept that this is what he owed to himself, his family, his role etc. They could not write this in the concluding report of course but it was the pivot of the problem: his idea of himself, and his willingness to aggressively defend this idea against the reality of his limits.
So when he ran into a situation that needed to be altered, he didn´t ask for supervision. When that alteration required a special technique, he didnt call a senior doctor and say "I cannot do this yet". When he made a grave mistake, he did not admit it, stop himself and call for assistance. And when he WAS stopped, he was not able to tell the story of how he made three big fat mistakes. And I literally mean "able to". "This was all my fault, nobody elses". "I have to correct myself". "I am sorry". "This was beyond my abilities". "I am not yet at the top of my game". where not part of his inner vocabulary. The only self image he could muster and bear, was "I am second to none and always right". Whoever told him that wasn´t true (for anyone!), had a problem and was being unfair or respectless.
Now, in Europe in general, some degree of self restraint and humbleness are part of the desired values in a human being. Do we have people who lack both, yes we do but they are regarded as slightly deviant. An aggressive "pride and honour" concept of oneself will rank somewhere on our "psychological immaturity" scale. While in other places, it is the only way to get anything in life at all. That is not racism, it is diversity. Some things will simply not integrate with some other things and vice versa. In critical functions such as aviation, being self critical, putting yourself second, and being able to handle AND admit/discuss your own mistakes and inabilities PUBLICLY, are absolutely mandatory to achieve proficiency. You will also receive same criticism from others / externals. Situations such as live flight lessons, assessment for cadet programs etc. will screen you for these things. I think that is what some of the posters here meant: you cannot give the impression that you react emotionally upset. It is a show stopper. You could be the most tall, blonde, blue eyed Swedish posterboy in the world, if they feel that you have a too big, unhealthy ego, you are out.
So, surprise: to be considered for a demanding and critical teamplayer role in Europe, you need to be European enough in your overall attitude. In synch with how things are done.
Excellent answer. Well balanced and with great concepts in it.
Join Date: Apr 2020
Location: Germany
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well. I have worked in several countries, some of which have a VERY different mentality and values than mine. While I would never use the r-word, I am pretty sure I have been subject to an attitude that ranked me somewhere considerably lower than the natives, especially since I had to work for a living instead of enjoying the luxurious citizen status there. So that exists everywhere, and is by no means exclusive to Europe. If you ever heard some Chinese comment on Africans for example, you´d have no further questions. That said, even if everybody tries to do their best to remove that from their attitude, there is still a bottom line of values that are not racist but legitimate in order to make things work, and I think we have already seen it in this thread in the form of "pride culture" vs. "criticism culture".
Assuming both are legitimate (although personally, I see the oppressive side of "pride culture" as an objective problem especially towards weaker groups, women etc.), this is what may be behind many experiences with "racism": not being on the same page of the book. I will give an example: My wife is a doctor and once had a younger "pride culture" colleague in residency. He ended up f**** up an operation in an inexcuseable way: not only did he alter the plan for the operation, he altered it to include a surgical technique he was not cleared for on his own, and he also performed it wrongly and punctuated heart tissue. And then while the patient was turning critical and the senior nurse stopped the show and called my wife as a senior doctor, he avoided answering clearly, so that the other staff had to find out what was wrong with the patient. Patient made it, but it was about to go wrong. The junior doc did not contribute to clarifying the situation. Now why did he do those things? He was certainly not an evil person, but the debriefing showed that he COULD not admit himself to be anything but the king of the hill. It was so ingrained in his self concept that this is what he owed to himself, his family, his role etc. They could not write this in the concluding report of course but it was the pivot of the problem: his idea of himself, and his willingness to aggressively defend this idea against the reality of his limits.
So when he ran into a situation that needed to be altered, he didn´t ask for supervision. When that alteration required a special technique, he didnt call a senior doctor and say "I cannot do this yet". When he made a grave mistake, he did not admit it, stop himself and call for assistance. And when he WAS stopped, he was not able to tell the story of how he made three big fat mistakes. And I literally mean "able to". "This was all my fault, nobody elses". "I have to correct myself". "I am sorry". "This was beyond my abilities". "I am not yet at the top of my game". where not part of his inner vocabulary. The only self image he could muster and bear, was "I am second to none and always right". Whoever told him that wasn´t true (for anyone!), had a problem and was being unfair or respectless.
Now, in Europe in general, some degree of self restraint and humbleness are part of the desired values in a human being. Do we have people who lack both, yes we do but they are regarded as slightly deviant. An aggressive "pride and honour" concept of oneself will rank somewhere on our "psychological immaturity" scale. While in other places, it is the only way to get anything in life at all. That is not racism, it is diversity. Some things will simply not integrate with some other things and vice versa. In critical functions such as aviation, being self critical, putting yourself second, and being able to handle AND admit/discuss your own mistakes and inabilities PUBLICLY, are absolutely mandatory to achieve proficiency. You will also receive same criticism from others / externals. Situations such as live flight lessons, assessment for cadet programs etc. will screen you for these things. I think that is what some of the posters here meant: you cannot give the impression that you react emotionally upset. It is a show stopper. You could be the most tall, blonde, blue eyed Swedish posterboy in the world, if they feel that you have a too big, unhealthy ego, you are out.
So, surprise: to be considered for a demanding and critical teamplayer role in Europe, you need to be European enough in your overall attitude. In synch with how things are done.
Assuming both are legitimate (although personally, I see the oppressive side of "pride culture" as an objective problem especially towards weaker groups, women etc.), this is what may be behind many experiences with "racism": not being on the same page of the book. I will give an example: My wife is a doctor and once had a younger "pride culture" colleague in residency. He ended up f**** up an operation in an inexcuseable way: not only did he alter the plan for the operation, he altered it to include a surgical technique he was not cleared for on his own, and he also performed it wrongly and punctuated heart tissue. And then while the patient was turning critical and the senior nurse stopped the show and called my wife as a senior doctor, he avoided answering clearly, so that the other staff had to find out what was wrong with the patient. Patient made it, but it was about to go wrong. The junior doc did not contribute to clarifying the situation. Now why did he do those things? He was certainly not an evil person, but the debriefing showed that he COULD not admit himself to be anything but the king of the hill. It was so ingrained in his self concept that this is what he owed to himself, his family, his role etc. They could not write this in the concluding report of course but it was the pivot of the problem: his idea of himself, and his willingness to aggressively defend this idea against the reality of his limits.
So when he ran into a situation that needed to be altered, he didn´t ask for supervision. When that alteration required a special technique, he didnt call a senior doctor and say "I cannot do this yet". When he made a grave mistake, he did not admit it, stop himself and call for assistance. And when he WAS stopped, he was not able to tell the story of how he made three big fat mistakes. And I literally mean "able to". "This was all my fault, nobody elses". "I have to correct myself". "I am sorry". "This was beyond my abilities". "I am not yet at the top of my game". where not part of his inner vocabulary. The only self image he could muster and bear, was "I am second to none and always right". Whoever told him that wasn´t true (for anyone!), had a problem and was being unfair or respectless.
Now, in Europe in general, some degree of self restraint and humbleness are part of the desired values in a human being. Do we have people who lack both, yes we do but they are regarded as slightly deviant. An aggressive "pride and honour" concept of oneself will rank somewhere on our "psychological immaturity" scale. While in other places, it is the only way to get anything in life at all. That is not racism, it is diversity. Some things will simply not integrate with some other things and vice versa. In critical functions such as aviation, being self critical, putting yourself second, and being able to handle AND admit/discuss your own mistakes and inabilities PUBLICLY, are absolutely mandatory to achieve proficiency. You will also receive same criticism from others / externals. Situations such as live flight lessons, assessment for cadet programs etc. will screen you for these things. I think that is what some of the posters here meant: you cannot give the impression that you react emotionally upset. It is a show stopper. You could be the most tall, blonde, blue eyed Swedish posterboy in the world, if they feel that you have a too big, unhealthy ego, you are out.
So, surprise: to be considered for a demanding and critical teamplayer role in Europe, you need to be European enough in your overall attitude. In synch with how things are done.
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: BHX
Posts: 89
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thats a fairly big mistake to type! If I was you I’d check your CV. You might have down that your a truck driver and not a pilot hence not being able to get a job!
But yeah seriously, 35 and 28 is a big difference man.. I dont get it
de minimus non curat lex
