Career advice for Pilots..

[sonicbum]

Originally Posted by Skyfaring

sonicbum , you say a pilot with experience has zero chances outside their current role without qualifications - I wholly disagree. Does an Army Officer (climbing ranks without a degree) do nothing after they leave the forces? No they utilise their skill set much like Willie Walsh did after retiring his license.

No, that is not what I have written in my earlier post. I have written that it is unlikely that a pilot will be able to relocate in another business whilst maintaining the same socio-economical position he had in his former role, unless of course he had some previous background studies in college, university and so on.
An Army Officer gets a chance to learn many different skills during his career that he can easily "resell" outside his current role, such as - for example - IT skills, security, intelligence, weapons knowledge, etc..
An airline pilot has many valuable skills, but most of them are strictly related to flying an aircraft and what is immediately surrounding it, ie. ops control / flight planning, rostering.
Can't really see how that could be applicable in another sector.

[Busdriver01]

Originally Posted by sonicbum

No, that is not what I have written in my earlier post. I have written that it is unlikely that a pilot will be able to relocate in another business whilst maintaining the same socio-economical position he had in his former role, unless of course he had some previous background studies in college, university and so on.
An Army Officer gets a chance to learn many different skills during his career that he can easily "resell" outside his current role, such as - for example - IT skills, security, intelligence, weapons knowledge, etc..
An airline pilot has many valuable skills, but most of them are strictly related to flying an aircraft and what is immediately surrounding it, ie. ops control / flight planning, rostering.
Can't really see how that could be applicable in another sector.

I would argue that, increasingly, the 'soft' skills such as CRM, Workload Management, etc etc are what really make a good pilot, and these are skills which other industries have actively shown that they desire / would like to incorporate and so a pilot can just as easily 'resell' these as an army officer. I agree getting a job with the same pay grade in todays economy may be a challenge.

[Flying Clog]

I know what I'd be doing right now - buying up all the hairdressing/cutting equipment I can possibly get my grubby hands on. Setting up a business plan to strike as soon as the social distancing measures are relaxed and perhaps using, recruiting, or putting on retainer, 100s of hairdressers in the UK with a compelling business model. A national door to door service at a sensible price. Used reliable cars will be going cheap too to equip the fleet. Learn to cut hair in the mean time myself.

Go absolutely ballistic once the social distancing measures are relaxed. There's no way that the current number of hairdressers in the UK will even be able to keep up with even 25% of the demand they'll have in the first 3-6 months of recovery. There will be a massive backlog. Good luck trying to book in to get your barnet cut any time soon.

Then use the profits you've made from this venture, and the business experience gained to open more doors. Perhaps simultaneously get a degree in business or something even more left field like Engineering, with the profits you've just drummed up. And away you go.

But sadly, as I alluded to in the opening of this thread - anyone with less than 10 years flying at a major airline or 5 years at a loco probably won't ever see the inside of the flight deck again. It's very sad and I feel for all my colleagues.

I started flying in the 90s, went through the Asian Crisis, 9/11, SARS and the GFC of 2008... and this one will be an order of magnitude of 10 of all those previous inconveniences COMBINED. And my good friends who were in the wrong place at the wrong time had their careers set back 5-10 years even with those (now minor) hiccups in the road. This one............

Swallow that pill, act fast, and forget about the flying career.

[guy_incognito]

Unfortunately I also can't see anyway back to flying for most who are about to lose their jobs. Even if we're extremely optimistic and assume that there'll be limited hiring of pilots within five years, by that time ratings will have lapsed and skills will have atrophied. Plan B (or C or D) for most is going to be needed I fear.

[Busdriver01]

If we needed proof that the thread starter was plucking random ideas from the air while searching for those lost marbles, we have it. I'll take the sympathetic approach here - are you ok, FC? Has lockdown got to you? Maybe speak to someone...

[sonicbum]

Originally Posted by Busdriver01

I would argue that, increasingly, the 'soft' skills such as CRM, Workload Management, etc etc are what really make a good pilot,

Absolutely.

Originally Posted by Busdriver01

and these are skills which other industries have actively shown that they desire / would like to incorporate

Very true but it is not enough, you also the need the technical knowledge of the different industries you are approaching and for most of them it can't just be built overnight, it takes time, most likely some university-level education.

Originally Posted by Busdriver01

and so a pilot can just as easily 'resell' these as an army officer.

I have got a few friends that have a past in the army. One learned IT in the army and now works in the IT field for a multinational company. Another one was in the special assault troop forces and now works for a security / bodyguard company. Another one is a weapons' store manager as he gathered enough knowledge in the army for that purpose. Which "skills" can you resell as a pilot, other than non-technical ones ?

[Flying Clog]

OK BusDriver01, you just keep burying your head in the sand. I'm sure everything will be back to normal in 3 months and aviation will be back to 2019 levels in no time. Absolutely no point on working on a plan B.

FC

[Master1975]

Dear Aviation Enthusiast,

we all love our job it is the best place to work in it.....but.....after already 3 insolvency's and a little time outside the European country i must realized it was just a delayed step out of aviation because many of us jumped already from other insolvency's to another one. Where we are right know....the airlines even the few that have a lot of money like Ryanair will survive and they will use CORONA to push down the TC's...working under the short time work allowance will be realistic until the 12 month are over. All the companies can and will do it because the use money from the governments. We a cheap employers right now believe me. We will and have already lost our power for a long time...is anyone here that thinks the unions will have any power in the future to fight for FAIR not better TC's....it will not be the fact...the airlines and the management will always put the COVID-19 cleaning rag on the table and will say SORRY but you know CORONA happened we can just reduce the TC'S

Aviation shrink's, at the end of the year 30 airlines or more will be bankrupt, the others reduces the size of the fleet.....Lufthansa already decided to closed Phoenix and Bremen in a few weeks...because who need young pilots if the market it full of us....we all are replaceable and with the crises know there a so many of us on the job market that the next 10 years all pilots can be recruited from the pool of fired pilots with sometimes more then 10000 hours on the shoulders.

Pls. youngsters don't and again don't trust the ATO's there all a liars and just want your money....to start to become a pilot right now is in fact burning of money...look to the left and right side...Airbus is just a step away to kick us out of the flight deck (automatic guidance during take off)...of course a lot will now say that will never happen....like "the aviation will never go down".....the aviation is DOWN and CORONA is like a emergency brake. The latest numbers from the ICAO says more then 30 Million of us from the lady that clean the toilet over the Lady on the information desk, the Lady at MC Donalds and all the others that made it possible for us to practice our profession. These people will never get back what they had passion.....very sad to see.....

i just started a training to become a professional truck driver and have 9 years until i can enjoy my pension.....i forget to say.....i'm was not employed by Lufthansa or Ryanair and was never in China....so far i will be an average pensioner....

Hope that the youngsters under us that just started a few months ago can survive this and have the chance to experience the same moments like we had in the past with all the feeling and sometimes tears in our eyes....and during i write this i have tears in my eyes remembering all the good moments that i had with my crew on duty and during layovers
For all others which thinking about to start with pilot training...DON'T DO IT....

For all uf us stay healthy

[JanetFlight]

Good luck with your truck driver career,,,however Corona, Covid, what you may wish to choose, like any other things its not perpetual neither immortal...yeap, could be 1, 2 or 3 years, but as other things in life, aviation will return to previous numbers sooner or later. And when im writing about aviation, the same applies to transport, travel, tourism, economy, etc....some things may change, some for better of us, but this is my humble opinion...stay safe, happy roads, peace!

[Sholayo]

@Lord Farringdon
Yeah, exactly my thought. I wrote it couple of pages ago but in much poorer language
This is the type of inspiration we need now and not that discouraging, almost full of shadefreude BS which was dumped by the guy who started the thread.

Cheers,
&

[advent]

Very well written. Takes a more experienced pilot to fully understand and agree with your comments.. Nothing intended there to offend anyone of any age or experience..

Some very good thoughts and engaging ideas for the pilot community as a whole to look at .. Thanks


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[guy_incognito]

It's a lovely sentiment, and I'm sure we'd all love to believe that what LF has written is true. Unfortunately however, the reality of the situation is that there's a world of difference between an experienced military officer and an airline pilot, except I suppose for those who have previously been military officers. In the real world, "transferable skills" may look good on a CV but they're not really going to put you above the fresh graduates you'll be competing with in most cases, let alone anyone with experience in the industry/ industries you're targeting.

One major hurdle (of many) that we'll be facing is the perception that we're going to be off as soon as a flying job crops up. There is no incentive for any company to invest a penny in an airline pilot, unless they can show that they've invested a significant amount in themselves to remove any doubt that they're serious about a career change, for example by getting a degree or similar. I'd think that would rule out the vast majority of pilots who simply can't afford to take three years away from work, and pay university fees of £9000 a year. With a mortgage, nursery fees etc. to pay I know it would be impossible for me. When the seemingly inevitable happens and I lose my job in the next couple of months, the priority is going to be an immediate income. Therefore, sad to say but I think for most of us, being a "checkout chick or forklift guy" is likely to be the reality for the foreseeable future and probably much longer than that.

[Citationcj2]

The OP needs to wake up from the nightmare hes having!
Im still flying on daily bases and loving my cockpit and the view of 4 engines. Not all aviation is dead.

And hopefully things will pick up, granted not as before, but we certainly not be prisoners of our homes for the rest of our lives

[Geriaviator]

Based on several careers in my long and happy life, Lord Farringdon says everything I would like to say, only he says it better. I can also understand subsequent posts by seeing the glass half full or half empty. My heartfelt good wishes to all those pilots and engineers now struggling in the shattered dreams I once aspired to and eventually made reality. May you find the good fortune that once smiled upon me.

[Baldeep Inminj]

I do have a very small piece of possible advice for those youngsters who dream of a career in aviation.

I am in my early 50’s. I wanted to fly for as long as I can remember - I genuinely never wanted to be anything other than a pilot. I was very fortunate to have quite wealthy parents who supported this aim. When I turned 20 I had a frozen atpl, was an instructor and had around 1000hrs in various piston singles and twins. I was lucky.
However I could not seem to make that next leap on the ladder and get somebody to pay me to fly rather than the other way round.
I had a long conversation with my uncle who had been in the RAF. He told me that the Military offered far better flying than a civilian could dream of, but demanded an awful lot in return. He said I needed to be honest about my goals and asked if it was the actual flying I craved or the lifestyle of being an airline captain.
I applied to the RAF, I was accepted, and then spent 29 wonderful years doing the most amazing flying - things I shall remember for a lifetime.
However, my friends who got into the the airlines at an early age are now pretty much all a lot wealthier than me...but I have much better stories! It’s horses for courses.

Now I really hesitate to call it a silver lining but the instability in the world, not to mention the current crisis, has only served to solidify the need for military aviation. It will not suit all, indeed it may not suit many, but for those that simply have to fly, it is there as an option and they are recruiting.

Just my thoughts 😁

[Flying Clog]

Originally Posted by Citationcj2

The OP needs to wake up from the nightmare hes having!
Im still flying on daily bases and loving my cockpit and the view of 4 engines. Not all aviation is dead.

And hopefully things will pick up, granted not as before, but we certainly not be prisoners of our homes for the rest of our lives

Citationcj2 - I'm the OP. I'm not having a nightmare. I'm just trying to help. Personally I'm one of the lucky ones, been flying 747 freighters for many years, and we're busier than ever now. But thanks for your concern.

Back to the topic - anyone have any other ideas of possible career paths for those who might not be able to get back into the flight deck for many, many years?

[NoelEvans]

Originally Posted by Baldeep Inminj

...
However, my friends who got into the the airlines at an early age are now pretty much all a lot wealthier than me...but I have much better stories! It’s horses for courses.
...

That falls very much into the "do you work to live or do you live to work" situation! Who is happier?

I liked Lord Farringdon's very well written optimism. But then there are some quite justified 'glass half full' comments following that. For example, will a future employer think that you're only going to be there until another flying job comes up?

Don't knock the idea of any of those 'menial' jobs in the mean time. Go and do one if you can. And don't think of it as 'menial' think of it as different. It will keep you occupied rather than moping at home. It will make your C.V. look better for whatever comes up in the future from two aspects: no long empty gaps and it showed that you were prepared to do something. That 'something' will help you to readjust your thinking to what may lie ahead and get you into a more suitable frame of mind. It would definitely help with your 'references trail' for whatever the future holds (possibly another airline job that will need that 'trail'?). But it will keep you busy. If you go down the sort of route that Lord Farringdon has done I am sure that it will put that "Is prepared to try something different" thought into a prospective employer's mind when looking at applicants to interview. And you will probably find if you go into it with the right frame of mind that you will enjoy it! Don't see it as 'underselling yourself', see it as filling a gap while you prepare for whatever comes next. And even if you do end up back in a flying job, it'll give you more to talk about in future years!!

I myself have had a gap between jobs and went to do what many might consider a 'menial' job, effectively sorting bits of paper and feeding them into envelopes. I met a huge range of people doing it for all sorts of reasons: fill gaps as I was (a lot of them from all walks of life!), people who just went from one temporary job to another, students earning extra cash or pensioners earning a bit more for that extra holiday the next year (in one case, one in his 70s for his annual scuba-diving holiday!). They were a great bunch of people. I never said what I did. Most never asked. If they did I said I was involved in 'transport' (until my last day, when I told a few!). I enjoyed it so much that a couple of years later I went and did it again for a few days in my spare time (again not talking abut what I do) and found that the new starters had been told that they have a huge range of people working there, they even had an airline pilot once! I would thoroughly recommend that anyone with time on their hands look into doing something! It would be valuable not just for whatever your C.V. might be needed for, but also for your own mind. It should add that little bit more to the way that you see the world which could be hugely valuable if it is not a flying job that you will go into.

But don't be too pessimistic about those flying jobs either. There have been huge ups and downs in this industry and it always bounces back, somehow. I have worked with lot of people who have been thrown aside by this industry but have clambered back. (And I have usually enjoyed flying with them a whole lot more than those who have ended up with everything 'handed' to them on a plate.) If you're really in it for the flying, don't give up. (If not, then please leave it for those who do enjoy the flying!)

But don't sit at home and mope, go and do something 'different' in the mean time. If you are going to do as Lord Farringdon suggested, it could be that first tiny step that gets the mind thinking differently. If you are intending to get back into flying it could be an important step to keeping your mind going!

Whichever way you go -- Good Luck!!

[Flying Clog]

Well said NoelEvans.

Get any job you can, and don't stick your head in the sand and/or get depressed. Preferably get a job that's mentally stimulating and perhaps learn some skills in a trade that's recession proof.

I would say; driving trucks, haircutting, electrical work, plumbing, engineering, IT. But I'm just throwing ideas out there.

And of course, never give up on the dream of getting back in the flight deck..

[guy_incognito]

I would say; driving trucks, haircutting, electrical work, plumbing, engineering, IT. But I'm just throwing ideas out there.

Qualifications (and therefore money) are required for all of those, except arguably driving (small) trucks. Unfortunately I'd say they're a little out of reach of the average airline pilot at the moment. Try stacking shelves, manning tills, picking fruit.

[cats_five]

Originally Posted by guy_incognito

Qualifications (and therefore money) are required for all of those, except arguably driving (small) trucks. Unfortunately I'd say they're a little out of reach of the average airline pilot at the moment. Try stacking shelves, manning tills, picking fruit.

In addition regulations for electricians & plumbers are forever changing, and there are manual skills that require practice.