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Career advice for Pilots..

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Career advice for Pilots..

Old 6th Apr 2020, 14:40
  #141 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Clandestino View Post
Marie-Antoinetteish moments were truly abundant in this thread but this one really takes the cake.

I guess we should all strive to be born into wealthy families.

Or at least marry into one.
Getting married - something else to be avoided in my opinion! But hey, each to their own! But please, not this ‘born into a wealthy family' crap again. Why is there always some fool who assumes that? I was born into the bottom end of income earners, it took me about five years of working long hours to pay for my CPL, and longer to get my ATPL. I lived in a hanger, youth hostel, and caravan behind my car to save on rent.

There is nothing unusual about struggling for a decade to land a decent job flying. And yet, there are always fools who think everything must have been handed to folk on a golden plate if a pilot..I assume they’re either total jerks, or just too lazy to get out there and struggle of 10 years or more, and they’re looking for excuses as to why aviation has not provided them with a big mansion on the hill. ”Oh it’s all because I wasn’t born wealthy.” Boo hoo. Grab a box of tissues and wallow in self pity dude.
There are plenty of commercial pilots who worked hard for years to pay for their training, and who ended up doing well. And if you come from a background like that, you might even appreciate the importance of keeping debt to a minimum, and savings to a maximum.

Took me about 13 years in the aviation industry and until my mid 30s to get a decent wage flying - first flying job paid less than the unemployment benefit. But eventually I landed a decent job and I bought an inexpensive apartment for cash some years after that. I never wanted a bank loan as I’ve seen how work can dry up fast. I’m now out of work again due to this virus, so I’m glad I have no debts and a place to stay. Might have to do something outside of aviation for a while - who knows!

Another thing anyone who earns good money should do, is save up one years worth of living expenses in cash. Impossible to do on a low salary, but everyone who was in a lucrative flying job during the recent aviation boom should have that - although most choose to spend it.
I’ve seen many people buy crazy expensive houses and cars on credit, save zero cash, and then loose their job and end up in a financial mess.
It’s a common theme - earn more, spend more - save no more, and end up no better off than when you earn a minimum salary.

Aviation is boom and bust. If you position yourself with the assumption that the boom is always going to last, then sooner or later you’re going to be in deep financial trouble. Nothing is is secure in life - work within the assumption that things can turn on a dime and you’ll be a little more prepared, or accepting, when that happens. Boom and bust - that is the reality of aviation and if you choose to keep your head in the sand, or pretend people have to be born into wealthy families to do ok in aviation or be financially cautious, then good luck...you’re going to need it!

Last edited by Jerry Springer; 7th Apr 2020 at 02:47.
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Old 7th Apr 2020, 00:29
  #142 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Private jet View Post
I'm sure in the UK the government would love for you all to get out into the fields and pick cabbages or lettuce or whatever for minimum wage to support some farmers fortune.
I don't know may "rich" farmers, some pilots on the other hand. (original crews at WestJet for instance)
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Old 7th Apr 2020, 01:23
  #143 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Private jet View Post
I'm sure in the UK the government would love for you all to get out into the fields and pick cabbages or lettuce or whatever for minimum wage to support some farmers fortune.
Nothing wrong with picking cabbages! I spent a summer in Herefordshire doing that...It was the strawberries that were the killer!
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Old 7th Apr 2020, 01:53
  #144 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Clandestino View Post
Marie-Antoinetteish moments were truly abundant in this thread but this one really takes the cake.

I guess we should all strive to be born into wealthy families.

Or at least marry into one.
So you think you have to be wealthy to live within your means and save some cash for a rainy day? Most airlines pilots should easily be able to do this.
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Old 7th Apr 2020, 01:56
  #145 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Longtimer View Post
I don't know may "rich" farmers, some pilots on the other hand. (original crews at WestJet for instance)
Given that most UK farms are large and subsidised by the EU, there are plenty of rich farmers out there.
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Old 7th Apr 2020, 07:32
  #146 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Jerry Springer View Post
Getting married - something else to be avoided in my opinion!
Don't start a family - now there is sound financial advice. Can we have some more like this one?

Originally Posted by marchino61 View Post
So you think you have to be wealthy to live within your means and save some cash for a rainy day? Most airlines pilots should easily be able to do this.
I was always wondering about airline pilots, how much they earn, how much they needed to invest in their training etc. so could you please expand a bit?
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Old 7th Apr 2020, 08:25
  #147 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Clandestino View Post
Don't start a family - now there is sound financial advice. Can we have some more like this one?

I was always wondering about airline pilots, how much they earn, how much they needed to invest in their training etc. so could you please expand a bit?
Yes, in Europe they earn around EUR 100K per year. Should be enough to be able to save a bit.
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Old 7th Apr 2020, 13:50
  #148 (permalink)  
 
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Wow. That's quite a lot. Is it before or after tax & contributions? Can one start earning this much straight outta flight school? Pray tell us more!
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Old 7th Apr 2020, 15:03
  #149 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Clandestino View Post
Don't start a family - now there is sound financial advice. Can we have some more like this one?

I was always wondering about airline pilots, how much they earn, how much they needed to invest in their training etc. so could you please expand a bit?

Not getting married and not having a family is very sound financial advice. These cost the average chap an absolute fortune. I’d rather go on holidays where and when I want, shag around as I please, and retire 15 or so years earlier than I’d have been able to do had I bought a family - but life is about choices hey - each to their own - but if you choose to pay for a family, no point complaining about not having enough money for quality cocaine and hookers. You can’t have it all dude.

Want some more sound financial advice? Well another thing that has saved me money is not owning a car for about 15 years. Of course that’s not practical for everyone, but it probably saves me the best part of 10k a year.

I can’t speak for others, but I invested about 5 years of working 60 hours a week to pay for my flight training - living in a caravan, hanger and hostels for that period...yeah if frigging sucked, and I often wondered if it was worth it...but if you’re broke and want to be a pilot, that’s about what you have to do. I tried to get a bank loan, but I got rejected every time. But life is also about making some sacrifices - you can have everything and you can’t have it all at once - as much some millennials (and others) seem to think otherwise, to their frustration.

How much do airline pilots earn? I have no idea. There are flying jobs outside the airlines you know.
If I had to wear a tie and one of those silly hats to fly, then I wouldn’t be so interested. But again, each to their own hey!

Last edited by Jerry Springer; 7th Apr 2020 at 15:23.
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Old 7th Apr 2020, 15:11
  #150 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Clandestino View Post
Can one start earning this much straight outta flight school? Pray tell us more!
No. Youíll have to suck it up and struggle for years first - just like everyone on a good salary in aviation did. And even after landing a high paying job, you may end up unexpecdely out of work for some time, or having to take a job youíd rather not do. Thatís life....
Whatís with this entitled attitude of expecting a high salary straight out of flight school?
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Old 7th Apr 2020, 21:54
  #151 (permalink)  
 
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fish

Some really interesting dicussion in this thread.

This seems to be a real gut check for many people, the boom years of the past decade+ were long enough that we have a whole generation that has never known the famine times. (ME included.)
Now we've hit an inflection point. No doubt about it, If you've been "Levering Up" for the past decade in all Areas (Credit Card, Conspicous Consumption, Family/Kids, Travel) riding the razor thin margins on the wave of the expansionist boom years, it's a painful one.

All the advice about switching to a trade? Well as a couple of astutue commentators have already elucidated, it's TOO LATE.
Sure, if you're ALREADY a plumber, (electrician, nurse, etc. etc.) then you have a nice little safety net, but how are you going to pick up from 0 as both sides of all markets contract (so spending cutting back) and bills need to be paid? This advice only works if you're taking the full 180 Option, I.e. leaving flying for good.

That said, the intent of the advice is sound - the industry will survive (people are still going to want to fly, etc. etc. airplanes are not going away) but this is where a lot of young cats will need to look in the mirror and decide if they want to "stay in the game" or not and wait out the painful years.

That said It's not all doom and gloom. I am a bit schocked at how low many of us seem to set our aim. Stocking Shelves? Pilots follow complex decision trees/procedures (checklists),work within large organisations (airline) as well as lead functional teams (cockpit), are accustomed to quick decision making under stress (command decisions), international exposure, understanding of company branding, the list goes on and on.

All of these = valuable business skills. Combine this with some light industry knowledge (pick an industry), add a little bit of polish and you're not far away from any respectable professional gig.

Sure we're in for some hard times but if the people in this forum are looking to pump gas or pick cabbages for work then you know we're really in the deep of it.

Take care all.

Last edited by AVIM; 7th Apr 2020 at 22:42.
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Old 8th Apr 2020, 07:55
  #152 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Flying Clog View Post
So you must take the time now to learn another trade. Do an online university degree. Use your time now, preferably to get yourself into a semi recession proof trade or skill
Great idea but you're assuming there'll be available jobs in other sectors then? Expect to be in a long queue of people after those jobs at supermarkets and toilet roll manufacturers!!
I just hope this virus was worth crashing the economy for!
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Old 8th Apr 2020, 08:12
  #153 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by AVIM View Post
All of these = valuable business skills. Combine this with some light industry knowledge (pick an industry), add a little bit of polish and you're not far away from any respectable professional gig
Taking aside the apparent assumption that there are CEOs everywhere with available roles that they wish could be filled by an ex-airline pilots, does this argument work the other way round then? You swap places with David Brent and after accruing some light industry knowledge and adding a little bit of polish, he can fly an airliner too?

Yeah... ridiculous isn't it? I agree with you that you have some great skills but I hate to break the news to you - there are lots of people with those skills already experienced in doing the roles that you think you'll walk into. Those people have a 'type rating'. In this context, you have a frozen ATPL. So I wish you luck with but you must realise being a pilot / ex-pilot isn't going to get you further up the queue!

Last edited by DaveJ75; 8th Apr 2020 at 08:38.
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Old 8th Apr 2020, 08:51
  #154 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by DaveJ75 View Post
Taking aside the apparent assumption that there are CEOs everywhere with available roles that they wish could be filled by an ex-airline pilots, does this argument work the other way round then? You swap places with David Brent and after accruing some light industry knowledge and adding a little bit of polish, he can fly an airliner too?

Yeah... ridiculous isn't it? I agree with you that you have some great skills but I hate to break the news to you - there are lots of people with those skills already experienced in doing the roles that you think you'll walk into. Those people have a 'type rating'. In this context, you have a frozen ATPL. So I wish you luck with but you must realise being a pilot / ex-pilot isn't going to get you further up the queue!
Thanks for the astute comment, you are correct, this does not work the other way around. Hope the rest of the thread will continue to give us the 'Mood in the Room'.
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Old 8th Apr 2020, 12:44
  #155 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by AVIM View Post

That said It's not all doom and gloom. I am a bit schocked at how low many of us seem to set our aim. Stocking Shelves? Pilots follow complex decision trees/procedures (checklists),work within large organisations (airline) as well as lead functional teams (cockpit), are accustomed to quick decision making under stress (command decisions), international exposure, understanding of company branding, the list goes on and on.

All of these = valuable business skills. Combine this with some light industry knowledge (pick an industry), add a little bit of polish and you're not far away from any respectable professional gig.

Sure we're in for some hard times but if the people in this forum are looking to pump gas or pick cabbages for work then you know we're really in the deep of it.

Take care all.
You are very correct and I do agree with your thoughts but at the end of the day what really matters are the academic titles you have achieved, if any.
Unfortunately a very senior captain, instructor, examiner etc.. with no academic qualifications other than those related to the technical aspect of the pilot profession (college tuition, university, masters, etc..) has zero or close to zero chances of getting a socio-economic equivalent position outside the aviation world.

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Old 8th Apr 2020, 15:18
  #156 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by inabw View Post
lol someone has been on the pop
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Old 8th Apr 2020, 20:48
  #157 (permalink)  
 
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Pessimistic scenario which only assumes 10% less traffic than the optimistic one? Was that graph prepared by some intern?
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Old 12th Apr 2020, 06:11
  #158 (permalink)  
ZAZ
 
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Training ?

Curious how so many Flying School Light Aircraft continue to train? Solos?
When a girl caught on L plates with her mother got slugged $1600
a yatchie also took boat to Gippsland Dock for food $1600.
One fleeing Vic for Tassie ran aground at heads will pay for SAR and a $1600 fine after being rescued.
A local here took his plane out Friday for a sortie over the town local cops went to airport for a please explain?
Vic Roads put out an announcement cars only to be used for
work, food supplies, meds, essential trips.
If classic cars reconsider using them for any purpose.
SE Aus lots of 172 training flights by day and night on radar.
So do flying schools have exemptions?
Maybe China needs graduates to top up its infected pilot pool?
typo
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Old 13th Apr 2020, 08:43
  #159 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by sonicbum View Post
You are very correct and I do agree with your thoughts but at the end of the day what really matters are the academic titles you have achieved, if any.
Unfortunately a very senior captain, instructor, examiner etc.. with no academic qualifications other than those related to the technical aspect of the pilot profession (college tuition, university, masters, etc..) has zero or close to zero chances of getting a socio-economic equivalent position outside the aviation world.
Whilst Sonicbum is partially right in saying the above, academic qualifications arenít going to get you to the top of any recruitment list - any recruiter/future employer will ask ďwhat can this candidate offer, and will this candidate stay if the aviation industry picks up againĒ. As such, regardless of any Open University or online qualification, you will need to make THE decision that many of us have already made - am I in this for the long term or is this a fad? If the latter then donít bother as youíll only disappoint yourself.

I had a previous career before Aviation which came from a University Degree, and I can tell you now after many years away from that industry, no one will accept me open arms knowing the financial and personal investment Iíve made in Aviation. The most useful academic achievement I have is my Air Transport Diploma I gained during my flight training.

sonicbum , you say a pilot with experience has zero chances outside their current role without qualifications - I wholly disagree. Does an Army Officer (climbing ranks without a degree) do nothing after they leave the forces? No they utilise their skill set much like Willie Walsh did after retiring his license.

My advice, dig in and stock shelves if you have to, keep absorbing aviation industry knowledge, and keep in contact with the recruiters. Take the initiative to actually speak to a recruiter instead of relying on email/DM/WhatsApp! And if you arenít committed to this industry then please feel free to leave and start again, as there are hundreds more with passion for aviation who will put in the hard work, will take the rough with the smooth, and are invested until retirement.

inabw - great link from Eurocontrol
AVIM DaveJ75 - spot on
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Old 19th Apr 2020, 00:16
  #160 (permalink)  
 
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Yuge USA retirement numbers in the next ten years for those who hang on.

If you are 21 you have a great career in front of you.

If you are 41 and just thinking about getting in go look at anything else but this.

If you just soloed at 16 you might be #1 at any major airline that survives.....the world is your oyster.

That said get a four year college degree in a real major that can support you and a family if something like this rears it's ugly head once again.

Best of luck big, small, heavies, supers and all.
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