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CAE easyJet MPL 2020

Old 4th May 2020, 17:55
  #161 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2020
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Hi there
I do believe that EZY said in their communication to him that he was in a "holding pool" and would contact him if and when there was a placement, my biggest concern is that his accreditation that he has so far ie...ground school / pheonix flying / IR / and Gatwick simulator on AIRBUS will expire before any job offer comes his way (there are seven other students in his group that are all in the same predicament).
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Old 4th May 2020, 18:20
  #162 (permalink)  
 
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I feel for this situation. It's certainly a difficult place to be in, but, being put across that way, it sounds like there's still some hope. Being put in a holding pool is somewhat better than being dumped altogether, as was the case with other carriers. easyJet didn't let go of your son completely, they just postponed his final bit of training and employment till better days, as I understood.

What I would suggest for now is wait for the dust to settle. In the next months we'll have a far clearer picture of what we're dealing with - hence, both the company and the flight school will know better what to plan on. Do maintain some communication with whomever is listed as your point of contact - that's what will help you decide whether you should keep that licence and wait it out or convert it to an ATPL and try to find luck elsewhere. Perhaps either of these is not going to be a quick fix, but for now we know too little to decide firmly on anything.
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Old 4th May 2020, 19:40
  #163 (permalink)  
 
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Holding pools are better than nothing and I hope that works out sooner rather than later, my concern is however for those individuals that decided to take out loans or secure training costs against a house. Training and jobs may be able to wait but the banks won't wait and I really fear in some cases the worse is yet to come for those in debt. MPL has on multiple occasions now shown a fundamental flaw there seems to be little rectification for, how many more MPL cadets must suffer before regulators will notice?
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Old 4th May 2020, 20:26
  #164 (permalink)  
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And why would the regulators show any interest? Did they ever step in to do anything pay to fly schemes or self sponsored type ratings in the past?

No MPL was forced kicking and screaming into the scheme, it was all voluntary.

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Old 4th May 2020, 21:23
  #165 (permalink)  
 
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Tempted to say that it should be more of a concern to insurance providers rather than regulators. An MPL scheme works out fab as long as there's a job in the end of it. However, when said job becomes non-existent by the time of graduation, there should be a clause in the mandatory training expenses insurance allowing the costs of conversion to ATPL to be claimed from the insurance since graduation with a non-transferable qualification and no job is more or less equal to loss of training expenses.
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Old 4th May 2020, 23:01
  #166 (permalink)  
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Sterling Airlines were one of the first MPL schemes and when they went bankrupt the fairly fresh 737 MPLS were taken on by another 737 operator. So to say the MPL isn't transferable isn't strictly true. While the essence of the above post is largely correct low time/fresh MPLs have been reemployed by operators of the same type in the past. Likewise Monarchs MPLs were taken on by Easyjet. However for Flybe's MPLS the issue is of course there are no other Dash 8 operators in the UK and very few in Europe.

There is nothing in the easy access rules that directly states a second MPA type can't be added to a MPL prior to achieving a full ATPL, but I suspect the necessary amendments to the Part B and Part D is what stops most operators considering other MPLs with minimal to no line experience from defunct airlines.
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Old 5th May 2020, 06:17
  #167 (permalink)  

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Originally Posted by Reverserbucket View Post
The MPL situation is difficult; similarly, a significant number of ex-Flybe MPL cadets.....

I don't feel MPL is properly understood by most candidates entering the industry - there is an understandable appeal as a result of the course construct which suggests a strong link between the trainee and airline but that is meaningless without the job, or a tangible flight crew licence at the end.
As has been alluded to, the MPL scheme is all about the trainee being ‘attached’ to an airline, and uses the airlines SOPs ( to the full extent possible*) during phase 2 &3, followed by the type rating.

The licence is issued once base training (circuits) is successfully completed.

An expensive option if this is the only outstanding item to secure the MPL issue.
Clearly an Airbus type is more useful than the Dash (Flybe).

There is no doubt that the MPL route should produce a superior product for the RHS, as the training is tailored for that sole purpose.

[Off topic slightly: the MCC/APS course is also capable of producing a good product]

The other route is to ‘revert’ to the (f)ATPL for CPL/IR issue. Here there is a shortfall in SP flying which needs to be completed together with the standard flight tests.

Note 1* Flybe trainees would complete the 120 hours of phases 2 & 3 on the B.737-800w at Jerez, using the Flybe briefing style, but flying the simulator as a Boeing not a DASH.

Their initial MPL courses in 2010 did require a “leap of faith” as we tried to fly the simulator as a DASH.
Very interesting going directly F5 to F-UP (no F1 selection).
Very light weights were used. And of course the issue of auto feather ‘armed’ !
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Old 5th May 2020, 07:54
  #168 (permalink)  
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What I forgot to mention in my previous post;

For those with the MPL issued and completed the Easy Access rules details the required additional training to obtain a conventional CPL and IR, it effectively amounts to doing 50% of the Integrated course content (which is pretty much what Parkfell has stated above).

However the issue for some of the recent MPLs is the MPL wasn't completed, there appears to be no formal guidance at the moment on how an incomplete MPL can be cross credited to a Integrated or Modular and again it depends on the what stage in the training was reached.
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Old 5th May 2020, 08:58
  #169 (permalink)  
 
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Sterling's collapse precipitated the more flexible MPL we have under EASA - it was not always transferrable.

I would say the only similarity between MPL, P2F and Self-sponsored type training is that each was a creation of the training industry - P2F and SSTR's are not regulated activities in the same way as an MPL, however they are social issues for which, in the EU, the European Commission is the arbiter.
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Old 5th May 2020, 18:37
  #170 (permalink)  
 
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Didn't L3 offer some sort of guarantee that training costs would be refunded? Obv not on their website now but I'm sure it was a 'selling point' not so long ago.
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Old 5th May 2020, 19:26
  #171 (permalink)  
 
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There used to be a mandatory training expenses insurance on most cadet programmes in past years. Not sure if that's still the case and whether it would cover revocation of the job offer due to force majeure.
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Old 5th May 2020, 20:13
  #172 (permalink)  
 
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Is there any of that for standard integrated courses outside of CAE?
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Old 5th May 2020, 22:19
  #173 (permalink)  
 
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L3, Skyborne and CAE I believe offer this package. Though it's supposed to be for performance related reasons (hence their chargeable selection process). One would imagine FTE do too. However as others have said, Force Majure is almost certainly going to be claimed and I won't hold my breath that schools will move mountains, they are likely to be haemorrhaging cash also.
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Old 6th May 2020, 00:55
  #174 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by PilotLZ View Post
However, when said job becomes non-existent by the time of graduation, there should be a clause in the mandatory training expenses insurance allowing the costs of conversion to ATPL to be claimed from the insurance since graduation with a non-transferable qualification and no job is more or less equal to loss of training expenses.
What insurer in the world is going to come up with a price for that premium?!? The premium would end up costing more than the cost of the retraining, except with the addition of their admin costs. They’ll be running their risk analysis as prudently as you should be; but I’m afraid their results should be broadly the same as yours, you don’t have a leg to stand on and if you want one, it’s going to cost the majority of the expected expenses occurred, to insure! You’re frankly deluded if you reckon that’s the kind of insurance proposition a provider is willing to present.
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Old 6th May 2020, 07:27
  #175 (permalink)  

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Originally Posted by giggitygiggity View Post
What insurer in the world is going to come up with a price for that premium?!?........
There are two, perhaps three aspects to consider:

1. Read your CONTRACT. Is there a clause which covers FORCE MAJEURE?
Your legal eagle needs to scrutinise the contract.

2. Insurance is, in essence, providing a measure of protection over future events outwith your control and not yet occurred, but possibly foreseeable.
If you had approached an Insurance Company 12 months ago and asked to take out insurance against a global pandemic event which covers the cost of your present situation, your training costs etc, then I suspect that you would have been able to obtain insurance.

A very long shot ~ check House insurance policy.

3. For those unfortunate customers who are at present in phases 2/3, a very generous ATO might, out of the goodness of their heart (not to mention excellent PR...cynical moi?) allow the trainee to complete the additional flying necessary for CPL/IR issue for the previous agreed MPL course price, i.e. switch across with no extra charges.
Individual circumstances would clearly dictate the generosity. Ideally just started phase 2.

MCC certification an additional matter requiring Regulatory discussion depending how far into phase 2/3.
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Old 7th May 2020, 09:24
  #176 (permalink)  
 
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This unfolding situation should be part of the flashy advertising blurb that airlines/flight schools spew out when launching these schemes. It is profoundly wrong that people aren’t fully aware of what they are risking by getting into bed with often shady airlines and their fast track shiny jet schemes.

Like many, I hate the way they exploit young impressionable people with their glossy illustration of airline life whilst trousering vast amounts of money at little risk to themselves. Ridiculous sums of money charged for type ratings that help subsidise their wafer thin balance sheets.

I wouldn’t even buy a new car from anyone in senior airline management. I certainly wouldn’t trust them or any of their associated “training providers” with £130k of my money.

For the avoidance of doubt, a contract will always be in their favour and worthless when they run out of money. Remember CABAIR?
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Old 7th May 2020, 09:36
  #177 (permalink)  
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Not just CABAIR, Four Forces, Southern Flight Training (incidentally the director of this set up EPTA under a Cabair franchise literally on the other side of the road). In all cases students lost varying sums of money.
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Old 7th May 2020, 16:48
  #178 (permalink)  

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Add Trent, Cranfield to the list of owners who did a runner causing a number of customers to loose money.
Was there a Secoats at Lydd that folded as well?
A few of their customers completed at BAe, PIK at ‘cost price’.

A very small crumb of comfort for future trainees ~ your superior negotiating skills will always secure an improved deal. Never take the first offer. Always be prepared to walk away.

Retired / ex BALPA reps would be well suited to this rôle.

Take a leaf out of my brother’s book. He always buys his fairly new (second hand) car on Christmas Eve afternoon, or New Year’s Eve. As he says NO to their final offer on the deal, having haggled for a good 20 minutes, he walks to the showroom door, only to be called back......need I say more.....

Last edited by parkfell; 7th May 2020 at 16:59.
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Old 9th May 2020, 09:15
  #179 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
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For anyone considering the MPL, or any flight training ask how many of the flight instructors are full time salaried employees and how many are contractors.

This will give a very good indication of the type of organisation.
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Old 9th May 2020, 14:24
  #180 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2020
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Patience!

After big crisis come big opportunities, just need to WAIT, this is not gonna be the end of the world, it is just the end of chances to find a job within this and next year, take this time to study or work in something else and save money, after one covid treatment or vaccine is found(it's said to be 6-9months) there will be a better perspective on how situation is( airlines, flight schools, economy), 2021 and 2022 will be 2 years for current working pilots recover their jobs, so there will be no MPL programmes in at least 1 year. For those intended to do integrated or modular ATPL, no point to finish before second half of 2022 or even a bit later.

But don't believe those dramatic and apocalytic guys who tell this is the end of the world, it never is, I've seen several reports from touroperators and airlines that the pace of reservations for the next year is good, imagine after treatment for Covid is found...

For those that just finished MPL, it is cheaper for easyJet to hire a second officer than one experienced first officer, so, you will be hired once this is all gone, in the meantime, you will need to work in something else to pay your loans, thst's hard but not a disaster(the other day I saw one 747 captain of BA working with a van for a supermarket, he did it just entertainment and also helping others, but it is an example that it is possible to work in something else).

So, cheer up, be patient and don't give away your money to some hungry flight school, forget studying this year!
Good luck!!
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