Advanced UPRT
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Your ICAO reference is still totally irrelevant as it alludes to an experience not a learned skill - which is gained on type. I honestly don’t value a 3 hour flight experience as useful training as i will have forgotten it within 6 months. If ICAO are that bothered then UPRT should form a bigger part of the PPL & CPL syllabus. There’s a reason why airlines don’t have SEP trainers sat around for us to fly...
Great instructors, and a brilliant experience. But it’s applicability to an airline environment I just can’t see. I would be all for more upset recovery training in the sim for type ratings and LPC/OCCs. But mandatory in an SEP? Nein Danke.
I have complete and utter respect for instructors and ATOs and their professionalism. However, training providers must be rubbing their hands knowing every single new licence holder has to give them another £2k for this.
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It’s a pure cash cow. That is all it is. Disgusting frankly.
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If the 3 hours were just added as part of the CPL then it would be valuable training and the cost wouldn’t be such an issue.. Expecting guys to pay £££ after their training and demanding it as a pre-job requisite for a 737 TR is just a joke.
Seems to me that when i were a lad we were taught full stalls, spinning etc at ppl level. Did it again for Bcpl, cpl and again if you did an instructor course. This exposed you to the real life sensations that a sim can’t.
Now yoofs of today ain’t had that and panic at anything over 25 degrees of bank and the flight director isn’t aligned.
These guys have never had to think for themselves, led by the nose by the “system” and many posts reflects his, they know the books but can’t “fly”
Not their fault it’s the syllabus and cost/profit.
As many things nowadays when they improve something be that a computer program, taste of ready meals, the list is very long they cock it up, seems same for flight training, it don’t work and to save face they try and patch it up instead of fixing it costing thousands to the student but with little benefit.
Now yoofs of today ain’t had that and panic at anything over 25 degrees of bank and the flight director isn’t aligned.
These guys have never had to think for themselves, led by the nose by the “system” and many posts reflects his, they know the books but can’t “fly”
Not their fault it’s the syllabus and cost/profit.
As many things nowadays when they improve something be that a computer program, taste of ready meals, the list is very long they cock it up, seems same for flight training, it don’t work and to save face they try and patch it up instead of fixing it costing thousands to the student but with little benefit.
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The point of modular training is you can do only the modules you need. Those wanting a CPL but not to fly multi pilot types would complain if advanced UPRT were included in their course when it is not mandatory for them.
If you want to fly multi pilot types the MCC and advanced UPRT modules are required but over the course of a career pilots flying large aeroplanes will earn more than those flying small aeroplanes the difference far outweighing the cost of the MCC and advanced UPRT modules.
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The point of modular training is you can do only the modules you need. Those wanting a CPL but not to fly multi pilot types would complain if advanced UPRT were included in their course when it is not mandatory for them.
If you want to fly multi pilot types the MCC and advanced UPRT modules are required but over the course of a career pilots flying large aeroplanes will earn more than those flying small aeroplanes the difference far outweighing the cost of the MCC and advanced UPRT modules.
It’s quite straight forward, there’s a line and that line is being pushed further and further towards pilots instead of companies. Enough is enough.
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If you are suggesting the airlines should pay for APS MCC and UPRT-A, I agree with you.
Ultimately the airlines will get the talent they pay for. If they want to select high caliber applicants from the available talent pool, rather than restrict themselves to the few who can self select thanks to the Bank of Mum and Dad, they will need to sponsor at least part of the required training.
But the ATOs also get the talent they pay for. If they want UPRT instructors with the combination of airline command and civilian aerobatic or military fast jet experience they may have to pay more than for a PPL instructor.
Ultimately the airlines will get the talent they pay for. If they want to select high caliber applicants from the available talent pool, rather than restrict themselves to the few who can self select thanks to the Bank of Mum and Dad, they will need to sponsor at least part of the required training.
But the ATOs also get the talent they pay for. If they want UPRT instructors with the combination of airline command and civilian aerobatic or military fast jet experience they may have to pay more than for a PPL instructor.
Last edited by Rivet gun; 25th Jan 2020 at 08:10.
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I’m not entirely sure hot shot £500 hr fast jet skygods are essential to deliver a 3 hour UPRT flight experience. incorporating this training into cpl would suffice if it’s as important as they make out. Otherwise scrap it all together and continue with the way it’s always worked. If it ain’t broke...
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From IATA (2019)
"Loss of Control – Inflight (LOC-I) is the most significant cause of fatal accidents in commercial aviation. LOC-I occurs when an aircraft deviates from the intended flight path or an adverse flight condition places an aircraft outside the normal flight envelope, with the pilot unable to maintain control of the aircraft. .....
With LOC-I accidents resulting in more fatalities in commercial operations than any other accident category over the last decade, reducing LOC-I accidents is a priority for IATA and the aviation industry across the globe."
I don't know how much UPRT instructors are paid (I would like someone to tell me) but perhaps similar to TRI or MCCI would be reasonable for an instructor with significant airline flying experience?
Part-FCL does not actually require UPRT instructors to have multi pilot or turbine engine aircraft experience but it does say that the safety and potential human factor implications of poor upset recovery instructional technique or misleading information are more significant than in any other areas of pilot training. It seems to me therefore that UPRT instructors would need to understand transport aircraft: how they handle and how they are operated by a two pilot crew.
"Loss of Control – Inflight (LOC-I) is the most significant cause of fatal accidents in commercial aviation. LOC-I occurs when an aircraft deviates from the intended flight path or an adverse flight condition places an aircraft outside the normal flight envelope, with the pilot unable to maintain control of the aircraft. .....
With LOC-I accidents resulting in more fatalities in commercial operations than any other accident category over the last decade, reducing LOC-I accidents is a priority for IATA and the aviation industry across the globe."
I don't know how much UPRT instructors are paid (I would like someone to tell me) but perhaps similar to TRI or MCCI would be reasonable for an instructor with significant airline flying experience?
Part-FCL does not actually require UPRT instructors to have multi pilot or turbine engine aircraft experience but it does say that the safety and potential human factor implications of poor upset recovery instructional technique or misleading information are more significant than in any other areas of pilot training. It seems to me therefore that UPRT instructors would need to understand transport aircraft: how they handle and how they are operated by a two pilot crew.
Last edited by Rivet gun; 25th Jan 2020 at 09:20.
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From IATA (2019)
"Loss of Control – Inflight (LOC-I) is the most significant cause of fatal accidents in commercial aviation. LOC-I occurs when an aircraft deviates from the intended flight path or an adverse flight condition places an aircraft outside the normal flight envelope, with the pilot unable to maintain control of the aircraft. .....
With LOC-I accidents resulting in more fatalities in commercial operations than any other accident category over the last decade, reducing LOC-I accidents is a priority for IATA and the aviation industry across the globe."
"Loss of Control – Inflight (LOC-I) is the most significant cause of fatal accidents in commercial aviation. LOC-I occurs when an aircraft deviates from the intended flight path or an adverse flight condition places an aircraft outside the normal flight envelope, with the pilot unable to maintain control of the aircraft. .....
With LOC-I accidents resulting in more fatalities in commercial operations than any other accident category over the last decade, reducing LOC-I accidents is a priority for IATA and the aviation industry across the globe."
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Hey guys starting type rating in March/April I wanted to know in which school they have already the advanced uprt course fully certificated for Easa fcl.745.a , I’m based in Spain so the shorter distance from here the better, thanks in advanced guys I appreciate any response, good flights
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If you are suggesting the airlines should pay for APS MCC and UPRT-A, I agree with you.
Ultimately the airlines will get the talent they pay for. If they want to select high caliber applicants from the available talent pool, rather than restrict themselves to the few who can self select thanks to the Bank of Mum and Dad, they will need to sponsor at least part of the required training.
But the ATOs also get the talent they pay for. If they want UPRT instructors with the combination of airline command and civilian aerobatic or military fast jet experience they may have to pay more than for a PPL instructor.
Ultimately the airlines will get the talent they pay for. If they want to select high caliber applicants from the available talent pool, rather than restrict themselves to the few who can self select thanks to the Bank of Mum and Dad, they will need to sponsor at least part of the required training.
But the ATOs also get the talent they pay for. If they want UPRT instructors with the combination of airline command and civilian aerobatic or military fast jet experience they may have to pay more than for a PPL instructor.
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No other airlines other than Titan are paying for this training. Presumably because they think its a total con also.
Last edited by Contact Approach; 26th Jan 2020 at 19:08.
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Same happens in Spain, although any school is advertising the A-UPRT course down here. The Spanish CAA told me to do it somewhere else approved by EASA…I don’t understand how come EASA/national CAA did not plan an approval time before the regulation coming into force…
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I would therefore highly doubt that the CAA know their @rse from their elbow as usual I'm afraid. It was dated 23 December therefore I would very much imagine other ATOs are receiving, or have received, their certificates and confirmation already over the past few weeks.
EDIT: I should add that this has been accepted by a TRTO I am about to undertake first type rating with, who are happy with this approval.