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Advanced UPRT

Old 19th Jan 2020, 19:06
  #21 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Italy
Posts: 11
Originally Posted by Banana Joe View Post
What is the requirement for those that have not received UPRT training but already hold a type rating on a CS-25 aircraft and will soon need to do another one?
Because I haven't had my SEP in a year and half and going though renewal and UPRT would be quite expensive.
Hey guys,

Same situation as BananaJoe, but holding a CS-23 type rating working in a multi pilot environment.

Anybody with some answers please?

Sky95 is offline  
Old 20th Jan 2020, 05:34
  #22 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Somewhere in the sky
Posts: 59
WZZ is accepting candidates without uprt at the moment, and I guess (not totally sure) , if you get selected they will help you getting an ato to take the certification with a considerable cheaper price.
PilotRoger is offline  
Old 20th Jan 2020, 10:25
  #23 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2019
Location: ro
Posts: 19
Hi, Iím starting my type rating on February 3rd.
there is only 1 flight school in Italy ďalmostĒ certified to perform UPRT course. But they are waiting for the certification from ENAC.
So...I have to do the UPRT Advance quickly..but I need a plan b.
do you know any other schools in Europe?
thanks
giovari is offline  
Old 20th Jan 2020, 19:46
  #24 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 50
Guys, is a valid SEP required to do UPRT? The hours flown on the course will be dual.
pilot freak is offline  
Old 20th Jan 2020, 20:40
  #25 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2019
Location: ro
Posts: 19
you need the SEP for sure.
giovari is offline  
Old 21st Jan 2020, 09:06
  #26 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: UK
Posts: 586
This UPRT requirement is the ultimate sick joke.
Contact Approach is offline  
Old 22nd Jan 2020, 05:29
  #27 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Somewhere in the sky
Posts: 59
The most nonsense is the CAA doesn't accept the fighter jet experience, still UPRT is needed...
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Old 22nd Jan 2020, 10:39
  #28 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: anywhere
Posts: 33
It seems all companies are starting to request the course as a requirement. In the UK it seems like most schools are charging around £1800 for the 2~3 days course. I found a school that is doing it for £1300. Honestly. It is a mystery to me how a 5h classroom + 3h aircraft course in a SEP A/C costs more that £1k...
OldDreamer is offline  
Old 22nd Jan 2020, 15:43
  #29 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2020
Location: Scandinavia
Posts: 1
Originally Posted by pilot freak View Post
Guys, is a valid SEP required to do UPRT? The hours flown on the course will be dual.
No I just did it without SEP.
echobrav0 is offline  
Old 22nd Jan 2020, 18:52
  #30 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: UK
Posts: 119
I enjoyed the course, but in all honesty I canít see much of itís applicable value in an airline environment.

It seemed to me like it was just 3 hours of flying slotted in between two days of briefings. All I remember is basic stall recovery, slipping and skidding stalls, spins, and nose high / nose low recoveries.

Granted, the briefings were some of the best Iíve ever seen. Delivered by ex-fast jet pilots. The flying was fun, but all I really learnt from it was ďpitch, power, rollĒ, which was their mantra. After the various stalls and recoveries had been completed (which took about 15 minutes), the instructor gave demonstrations of endless aerobatic manoeuvres. It seemed like the instructors spent most of the time showing off and getting some stick time. You really donít have much time up there, especially when most of the hour consisted of departures and arrivals.

The things I took from it were what I already knew from the PPL stage. And were taught to me by a PPL instructor in a Piper. And the type-relevant stuff taught in a type rating. Itís a great experience to fly in an airplane fit for the Red Bull Air Race with an F-16 pilot sat behind you, but I honestly donít think UPRT should be mandatory. Itís a farce how if training isnít expensive enough, itís now going to cost £2,000 more. Not to mention the difficulty of getting it scheduled in Europe, considering it needs perfect weather.

Thereís definitely an element of self-preservation and training providers who are trying to justify their own existence with this one.
Rottweiler22 is offline  
Old 22nd Jan 2020, 19:24
  #31 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: UK
Posts: 586
Rottweiler22, 100% mate.
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Old 22nd Jan 2020, 19:38
  #32 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 145
Originally Posted by OldDreamer View Post
Honestly. It is a mystery to me how a 5h classroom + 3h aircraft course in a SEP A/C costs more that £1k...
I think many (but not all) instructors teaching this course in the UK are experienced airline captains or with business jet or military jet flying experience. All are current aerobatic pilots and most also aerobatic instructors. Would such people work for the same pay as hour building instructors with a PPL? Also the instructors require an extra training course including advanced spin recovery and annual refresher training. The CAA will charge extra admin costs and the school requires ATO (not DTO) approval.

Last edited by Rivet gun; 23rd Jan 2020 at 09:18.
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Old 22nd Jan 2020, 19:57
  #33 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 145
Originally Posted by Rottweiler22 View Post
n After the various stalls and recoveries had been completed (which took about 15 minutes), the instructor gave demonstrations of endless aerobatic manoeuvres. It seemed like the instructors spent most of the time showing off and getting some stick time.
Here is a quote from GM1 FCL.745.A
(b) Instructors should:
...
(4) understand the differences between all-attitude UPRT and aerobatics training;

And from GM1 FCL.915 (e)

(b) The advanced UPRT course in accordance with point FCL.745.A is not aerobatic training and only requires training for the incipient spin as well as uncoordinated side slipped stalls which are prone to initiating spins.
Rivet gun is offline  
Old 22nd Jan 2020, 21:53
  #34 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Goodwood
Posts: 178
Originally Posted by Rottweiler22 View Post
I enjoyed the course, but in all honesty I can’t see much of it’s applicable value in an airline environment.

It seemed to me like it was just 3 hours of flying slotted in between two days of briefings. All I remember is basic stall recovery, slipping and skidding stalls, spins, and nose high / nose low recoveries.

Granted, the briefings were some of the best I’ve ever seen. Delivered by ex-fast jet pilots. The flying was fun, but all I really learnt from it was “pitch, power, roll”, which was their mantra. After the various stalls and recoveries had been completed (which took about 15 minutes), the instructor gave demonstrations of endless aerobatic manoeuvres. It seemed like the instructors spent most of the time showing off and getting some stick time. You really don’t have much time up there, especially when most of the hour consisted of departures and arrivals.

The things I took from it were what I already knew from the PPL stage. And were taught to me by a PPL instructor in a Piper. And the type-relevant stuff taught in a type rating. It’s a great experience to fly in an airplane fit for the Red Bull Air Race with an F-16 pilot sat behind you, but I honestly don’t think UPRT should be mandatory. It’s a farce how if training isn’t expensive enough, it’s now going to cost £2,000 more. Not to mention the difficulty of getting it scheduled in Europe, considering it needs perfect weather.
With the greatest respect, if what you have described is what was delivered then you have not attended a functional, effective or FCL.745.A compliant UPRT course. Not least because aerobatic manoeuvres are nowhere on the syllabus, and delegates should be receiving a full 3 hours of actual UPRT activity - transit out and return to base do not count towards the 3 hour requirement.

And the biggest single point is that a good UPRT school will ensure that ALL of the training is directly pertinent to the commercial airliner environment.

On the weather point, you do not need perfect weather, just enough of a clearing to safely deliver the exercises. Our UPRT school has delivered 14 UPRT courses already this January, and are hoping to deliver another 12 in the next couple of weeks.
greeners is offline  
Old 23rd Jan 2020, 08:49
  #35 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 145
Originally Posted by greeners View Post
delegates should be receiving a full 3 hours of actual UPRT activity - transit out and return to base do not count towards the 3 hour requirement.
But are the UK CAA (or other NAAs) making this mandatory?

The definition of how flight time is recorded for flying training is given at AMC1 FCL.050.
It is understandable that a ATO wishing to offer the course at minimum cost might interpret the 3 hours dual instruction time in accordance with AMC1 FCL.050 unless their Licensing Standards Inspector tells them otherwise.

Last edited by Rivet gun; 23rd Jan 2020 at 11:21.
Rivet gun is offline  
Old 23rd Jan 2020, 12:52
  #36 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: South East
Posts: 15
Originally Posted by Rottweiler22 View Post
I enjoyed the course, but in all honesty I can’t see much of it’s applicable value in an airline environment.

It seemed to me like it was just 3 hours of flying slotted in between two days of briefings. All I remember is basic stall recovery, slipping and skidding stalls, spins, and nose high / nose low recoveries.

Granted, the briefings were some of the best I’ve ever seen. Delivered by ex-fast jet pilots. The flying was fun, but all I really learnt from it was “pitch, power, roll”, which was their mantra. After the various stalls and recoveries had been completed (which took about 15 minutes), the instructor gave demonstrations of endless aerobatic manoeuvres. It seemed like the instructors spent most of the time showing off and getting some stick time. You really don’t have much time up there, especially when most of the hour consisted of departures and arrivals.

The things I took from it were what I already knew from the PPL stage. And were taught to me by a PPL instructor in a Piper. And the type-relevant stuff taught in a type rating. It’s a great experience to fly in an airplane fit for the Red Bull Air Race with an F-16 pilot sat behind you, but I honestly don’t think UPRT should be mandatory. It’s a farce how if training isn’t expensive enough, it’s now going to cost £2,000 more. Not to mention the difficulty of getting it scheduled in Europe, considering it needs perfect weather.

There’s definitely an element of self-preservation and training providers who are trying to justify their own existence with this one.
I am disappointed to read this. Whichever ATO you attended, they have clearly had a Training Manual approved, but are not delivering it, or understand it. This is most probably down to instructor standardisation/training. The course is not about aerobatics - or the instructors ability to 'show off', it is about the physiological and psychological aspects of a divergence from a normal flight path and the coping strategies of that, in accordance with operation in multi crew environment as scenarios of a commercial aircraft.

There are very few ATO's in the UK approved to deliver this and I would be surprised if it was one of the top 3. Also, this course need not be too expensive to delegates, but it is worthy noting the costs to an ATO to deliver this course, as well as the calibre of instructors used by said ATO - well certainly the top 3!

Having delivered Advanced UPRT - A to 29 delegates so far this month, I can also concur that this is a real challenge weather wise, but delegates should be mindful that ATO's have their minimas, and will stick to it - for very good reason.

Thanks,
Rob
Rob Howarth is offline  
Old 23rd Jan 2020, 14:27
  #37 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 145
With a bit of google searching I have found six ATOs in the UK offering the Advanced UPRT course, there may be others I have missed. I presume they all have met the same CAA requirements so I don't know how they could be ranked in any particular order of merit (short of personally evaluating each one).

I suspect Rottweiler22's course may not have been in the UK (not so many F-16 pilots here). There is a UPRT school at Breda in the Netherlands which is a branch of an American UPRT company, but they claim to be the best in the world so perhaps not that one either.
Rivet gun is offline  
Old 24th Jan 2020, 11:57
  #38 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: UK
Posts: 586
in accordance with operation in multi crew environment as scenarios of a commercial aircraft.
The issue I have with this course is that you don’t fly an airliner like an SEP nor should you fly an SEP like an airliner. UPRT is a part of the TR and the environment is completely different to being in a SEP. You can’t stick someone in a SEP and say that they need to feel the physiological effects when the environment, characteristics and handling all are different to being in an airliner. This course is also extraordinarily expensive for what it is. It’s a real kick in the nuts to those who’ve just paid out £££££ to complete their training to be then asked to fork out £££ more before being eligible to apply for jobs. Particularly when useful UPRT will be covered in detail during their respective TR.
Frankly, its a scam and it serves nothing more than lining the pockets of the few.
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Old 24th Jan 2020, 13:41
  #39 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 145
Originally Posted by Contact Approach View Post
Frankly, its a scam and it serves nothing more than lining the pockets of the few.
Here is the relevant extract from ICAO doc 10011

"3.3.1 Aeroplane Training 3.3.1.1 While an essential component of overall flight training and UPRT, current FSTDs have limitations that render them incapable of providing the complete exposure to conditions synonymous with preventing or recovering from a LOC-I event. Limitations in FSTD motion cueing and the reduced emotional response create boundaries that prevent pilots from experiencing the full range of aeroplane attitudes, load factors and behaviour that can be present during an actual flight. These areas of missing experience provide gaps in pilotsí understanding and proficiency when confronted with an actual upset. UPRT on aeroplanes provided by competent instructors should compensate these gaps by being part of the initial UPRT experience at the CPL(A) and MPL level and should then be supplemented by training in FSTDs. This on-aeroplane training, when given at the CPL(A) or MPL licensing level, provides physiological and psychological exposure geared toward upset prevention and recovery which creates a frame of reference that can be transferred to the FSTD environment later in their training. The practice and application of skills acquired during on-aeroplane UPRT provides experience and confidence that cannot be fully acquired in the simulated environment alone."

As for who should pay for on aircraft UPRT, that is part of a wider debate about how the industry recruits pilots and who pays for which bits of the required training. When you go for an airline interview you could explain to them that you can't afford an on aircraft UPRT course but you will be happy to work for them if they pay for a course for you. The cost is fairly insignificant in the overall context of an airline's training budget.

As for what ATOs are charging, many of the instructors are experienced airline captains who could expect to earn over £500 a day working for an airline. I don't know what advanced UPRT instructors are actually paid (perhaps someone on this thread could tell us) but maybe some are willing to work for less than airline pay in order to keep the cost down for those student pilots who have to pay for the course themselves?
Rivet gun is offline  
Old 24th Jan 2020, 14:02
  #40 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: UK
Posts: 586
Your ICAO reference is still totally irrelevant as it alludes to an experience not a learned skill - which is gained on type. I honestly don’t value a 3 hour flight experience as useful training as i will have forgotten it within 6 months. If ICAO are that bothered then UPRT should form a bigger part of the PPL & CPL syllabus. There’s a reason why airlines don’t have SEP trainers sat around for us to fly...
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