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Unemployed (as pilots) fATPL holders

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Unemployed (as pilots) fATPL holders

Old 23rd Oct 2019, 17:30
  #61 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
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Originally Posted by bulldog89 View Post
What I can say to unemployed students is: make sure this is what you really want, because with that amount of money you could also set up a small aviation company, which probably it won't make you rich, but it will give you an honest salary and a good amount of free time. BUT if at anytime you feel this is not the right path for you just find something else and move on.
Completely agree. Hopefully the t's and c's for flight schools and other non airline flying jobs improves over time and those provide an enjoyable lifestyle.

I don't think the money argument is really there for aviation anymore, it is so hard to get one of those high paying jobs anyway that even on a good job the money and benefits are nothing in comparison to other industries. I have friends who are engineers who earn similar money to captains on 737s and 320s in Europe. Flying will nearly never be a job that will make you rich, unless you move to China as a captain!
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Old 25th Oct 2019, 23:52
  #62 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
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Agree with this flyingmed and bulldog89, you have to really really want it and have the non waning passion of Valentino Rossi to want to keep ongoing despite poor pay, being messed around, giving up your freetime often and paying for so many things yourself even when employed.

Its hard to know what its like until you have tried it but the older you get the harder it is to accept being treated like this, I found the airport security a real hassle, complete jobs worths alot of the time and a rubbish way to start your day!

I would recommend working in an airport for a week or two to really sort out if you want to spend so much of your time there, I guess the drop of rate would be high and you could save alot of your time and money.
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Old 26th Oct 2019, 01:00
  #63 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by flyingmed View Post
even on a good job the money and benefits are nothing in comparison to other industries. I have friends who are engineers who earn similar money to captains on 737s and 320s in Europe. Flying will nearly never be a job that will make you rich, unless you move to China as a captain!

What type of engineering at what company? I know some Senior/Project civil engineers at top contractors earn from £45-65k whereas I thought 737 and 320 captains get £70- 90k? at most airlines.

Those engineers work from 7am to 7pm on a 5 on 2 off pattern sometimes 6 on 1 off. So thats 60+hr weeks
I suppose at least they have a regular wake up/ sleep pattern so maybe it cant be compared?

And software engineers at IBM average around 40k (on glassdoor) and software engineers at goldman sachs average £65k

By comparison to other industies do you mean doctors or lawyers, and financial services where the work is very competitive to get a foot in also? I don't really think there are any easy options at that kind of pay level.

(Sorry for helping to derail the thread it wasn't supposed to be sidetracked to about pay, but thank you for contributing )

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Old 26th Oct 2019, 10:16
  #64 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
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Its about the whole package rather than headline salary, working from home, holidays, pension contributions as well, FS firms would pay upto 16% pension and many airlines pay the minimum contributions and some paid 0 until law change recently.

From my experience aviation is the most competitive I have come across with the lowest terms and conditions and riskiest business model.

The benefit of Doctors, Dentists and Lawyers etc, you can become a partner/owner and own part of the business and command your own work life balance and salaries/dividends closer to 200k if you own the practice and the property the business sits in, being your own boss as you get older rather being given a non negotiable roster.

Dated but relevant article: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/...ost-first.html

I think everyone would agree with this, dont do aviation for the 'high' salary, it will disappoint!
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Old 26th Oct 2019, 16:15
  #65 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
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Aer Lingus pilots still seem to do very well, good salary and very good pension I hear, although the cost of living in Dublin is, I believe, very high. From what I've heard, the likes of Air France, KLM and Lufthansa also have very good contracts. Unfortunately the rest are/have been going the wrong way for quite sometime, even where pay/pensions are still good, there are longer two crew sectors and shortened rest.

Quite a few comparisons with other professions have been made. First-hand, I can only speak for the train driving world:
£50-70k basic depending on company, best top line I've seen on a payslip was £9500 for four weeks' work (including a lot of overtime).
Defined benefit pension at most places.
Typically a 4 day, 35 hour week.
Some companies are still "Sundays outside", meaning that unless you want to, you never have to work a Sunday. This was standard during BR days, some companies have "purchased" Sunday working from their drivers.
Internal redeployment with parachute payments if you lose your medical, at some companies you keep your drivers salary in the new role.
Fully funded training during which you receive approx. 50% of qualified pay and enrolment on the pension scheme.
Free travel with your own company and others under the same parent company from your first day of employment, 75% off all UK walk-up tickets after 6 months, FIP card for discounted continental rail travel after 1 year.
Job security on franchised passenger work is not dependent on industry financial performance, if your employer goes bust the government will either nationalise it or give the franchise to someone else and you get TUPE'd over. Freight and open access is a bit more like the airlines though.

How do we achieve it? We have a strong union and we also have a standard industry-wide aptitude test which has a 90%-ish failure rate with only one resit ever allowed. You also have to be taken on by a train company in order to become a trainee, so the entire industry isn't awash with newly qualified people desperate for a job. If you turned up for an interview and offered to pay for your own training (which costs a similar amount to an integrated fATPL), you'd get laughed out the door by management.

It's all supply and demand, look what happened in the US to T&Cs once the 1500 hour rule was brought in, if you can cut off the supply of people desperate for a job, pay and conditions will improve.

I'm currently doing a PPL, originally the intention was that I'd look to go for modular training or a funded cadet scheme afterwards, ow I'm tempted to just keep the PPL. Even though things have been "good" from 2014 through to 2018-ish, there's still a lot of people who haven't got jobs despite spending huge sums on training.
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Old 30th Oct 2019, 15:01
  #66 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by yap800 View Post
What type of engineering at what company? I know some Senior/Project civil engineers at top contractors earn from £45-65k whereas I thought 737 and 320 captains get £70- 90k? at most airlines.

Those engineers work from 7am to 7pm on a 5 on 2 off pattern sometimes 6 on 1 off. So thats 60+hr weeks
I suppose at least they have a regular wake up/ sleep pattern so maybe it cant be compared?

And software engineers at IBM average around 40k (on glassdoor) and software engineers at goldman sachs average £65k

By comparison to other industies do you mean doctors or lawyers, and financial services where the work is very competitive to get a foot in also? I don't really think there are any easy options at that kind of pay level.

(Sorry for helping to derail the thread it wasn't supposed to be sidetracked to about pay, but thank you for contributing )
I don't know what jobs are like in the UK (from the £ sign in your post) I can say from experience that that a large portion of IT security & IT engineering jobs in Ireland (for example) with the likes of social media companies and computer hardware manufacturers are over the 100K a year mark (maybe just under in £).
I do not have any banking / financial services / medical profession friends so I am not sure exactly what the pay packages are like there. The more unstable the job usually the more the monthly pay is, just like aviation.

The point I was trying to make is that the huge investment needed to get into aviation does not justify the pay for those people who want to get into flying for the monitory side of the job. Someone can spend less money to earn a similar or more money, especially in the USA where the good money is really only in the big carriers and a very unstable market underneath the major airlines. Not to mention sometimes crazy working patterns and very long commutes to work (5hrs +)

For the aviation engineering side of things you mentioned quite a stable roster for some friends, that seems to be quite similar to friends of mine who are in comfortable jobs. There are however jobs out there without the stable roster who are on much more as contractors.

I just saw in another thread the salary for captains in Laudamotion after tax is just over the 3K a month mark. There are plenty of non - aviation jobs which would pay that or more.


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Old 30th Oct 2019, 20:39
  #67 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2019
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I know some Senior/Project civil engineers at top contractors earn from £45-65k whereas I thought 737 and 320 captains get £70- 90k? at most airlines.
£70-90k would be more reasonable for an FO than a captain.
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Old 31st Oct 2019, 12:36
  #68 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Bryan_Air View Post
I did my licence a few years ago as a late starter after a good well paid career in another industry.

I was fortunate to get an airline job from the start and to be honest I hated it from about the second week. I am used to working in a polite, fair environment and the culture within the airline I was in was schoolboyish. Told what to do, when, where and how. Roster was mad, always a mess, and changes ALL the time when you have things going on in your life, hotels at the cheap end of the market. It was exciting first time flying the aircraft but once you have done it, its quite boring and the SIMs are always repeating the same thing, again and again but slightly different. Its a very repetitive job in a very sterile environment and I found it quite boring and something I got over pretty quick. Playing football with friends is much more fun and exciting.

I spent alot of time and money to do it which on one side was a complete waste but I wanted to do it and I did, so it was a success on the other side.

Am back in the other industry and I am much happier appreciating what I had even more.

Oh yes the money is very low for what you do. I think the younger you are the more you can put up with the BS, stress etc and the business case for the investment is more worthwhile as you can earn good £ quicker before family commitments come along and quality of life is more important.

Well said bryan . Was great to hear you got to follow your dream and succeeded in getting your licence.
It takes a strong person to achieve what you did and even a stronger person to walk away.

I have had a similar experience, been there done that, had some good experiences some great flying but more bad experiences than good im afraid and had to walk away just to keep sane.
You'll probably find that we're not alone .A majority will succeed and will live the dream but only for a short period and will end up back to some sort of normality ,whatever that may be .
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Old 1st Nov 2019, 13:41
  #69 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2019
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I would recommend working in an airport for a week or two to really sort out if you want to spend so much of your time there, I guess the drop of rate would be high and you could save alot of your time and money.
I find this to be a very bizarre comment. I'd suggest that airport security is merely an annoyance and not something to base your career decisions on. There are far more compelling reasons not to fly for a living than the airport environment!
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Old 1st Nov 2019, 16:15
  #70 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
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This is an interesting thread, pretty good advice in places to.

Passion for something is a very 21st. century notion, a word that is bandied about, but hard to pin down. I would say that Determination to never, ever, ever, give up is as useful to the aspiring fATPL, demonstrated by some of the posters on here. Certainly learnt by myself 27 years ago when I passed my IR in the middle of the Air Europe bankruptcy. 2.5 years of trying to get a job, finally materialized into one, and the wait was extremely trying, but worth all the effort in the end.

There are differences between then and now. The 90's was the tail end of the good times to be a pilot. I was lucky enough to end up with a legacy carrier which had great t&c, but post 9/11 everything has been a battle to keep them. With the failure of Thomas Cook a few weeks back, I now am looking for work again in an environment that I barely recognise and for pay that I would have laughed at a month ago. If you are new to this game (which I am insofar as selection processes go) I would greatly recommend a course of interview preparation. BALPA has thankfully organised these for the TC pilots FOC, but having done it, I can genuinely say it has increased my chances of surviving a selection day by 100%. The dead hand of HR looks at you from angles that you don't see yourself and you are judged by the smallest infraction of a set of criteria that only they know. But the criteria are generally similar for each airline, so know the game to increase your chances of winning it.

Thankfully, I came to aviation late as a 2nd career, so I'm at an age to walk away and hang up my headset. I loved the first 10 years, but the next 15 made me think that I would not recommend the life to my children unless they just had to do it, back to the passion, I suppose. The money today is there eventually, but it is not so great that plenty of other jobs, which are easier to achieve and hold onto, can't equal. I don't regret travelling the world and having some amazing experiences to remember doing long haul, but to sell my soul to do 4 east Med trips a week, no thanks.
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Old 1st Nov 2019, 18:25
  #71 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
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Bit like the X factor isnít it? One or two will make the big money with the great TCs, the rest will still be singing in the shower or karaoke !

Dont overlook the absolute importance of Ď timing Ď.
Moving jobs/ companies/ types at the correct moment to get a promotion/ better pay etc.

My timing wasnít bad and I got a command in my 30s, some I know has been awful ( not always their fault ) and means they are in their 40s with no sign of promotion on the horizon
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Old 2nd Nov 2019, 23:52
  #72 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
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Originally Posted by flocci_non_faccio View Post
I find this to be a very bizarre comment. I'd suggest that airport security is merely an annoyance and not something to base your career decisions on. There are far more compelling reasons not to fly for a living than the airport environment!

Its the culture I am referring to, aviation is a very different culture that can be exhausting in all areas.
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Old 8th Nov 2019, 12:48
  #73 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
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Ha very interesting thread. I’m at the point in my life now that I’m rather bored of my current ITish job, and an seriously considering moving into aviation.



I know I can support my family and do the fATPL training in the background over the next 5 years, but the question of whether it will be worth it is a big one. I’ve had a love for aviation for decades, but also have just stated a family… currently just shy of £50k in my current job, I do wonder about what is considered “low pay” and what salary increases are realistic.



Luckily, in line with this thread, because I have a job already I’m not hugely concerned if it takes a few years of applications … but the investment vs a potential non-return thought is always there.
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Old 8th Nov 2019, 14:25
  #74 (permalink)  

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If you enjoy teaching, go down the route ( via modular) of part time instructing at weekends and keep your well paid job to support your family.
If you can afford to spend that significant sum without the possibility of any return then do it; what you are contemplating is risky. Family must always come first.
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Old 25th Nov 2019, 13:25
  #75 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
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Originally Posted by onionabroad View Post
Ha very interesting thread. Iím at the point in my life now that Iím rather bored of my current ITish job, and an seriously considering moving into aviation.



I know I can support my family and do the fATPL training in the background over the next 5 years, but the question of whether it will be worth it is a big one. Iíve had a love for aviation for decades, but also have just stated a familyÖ currently just shy of £50k in my current job, I do wonder about what is considered ďlow payĒ and what salary increases are realistic.



Luckily, in line with this thread, because I have a job already Iím not hugely concerned if it takes a few years of applications Ö but the investment vs a potential non-return thought is always there.
Always follow what is truly driving you, your family and wife will be thankful for that and test you if you really want what you chose. It will be hard but thats the way to fulfillment. Imagine being in a movie, youre the lead star and your son/daughter/wife is watching that movie. Its up to you how itll turn out.
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Old 26th Nov 2019, 09:31
  #76 (permalink)  
 
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I've read through most of this thread and, oh boy, there is some good advice in here together with putting some things into perspective. Thanks to all the previous posters!

I'm currently in a situation that is probably enviable but doesn't give any indication as to when I'll actually start.

I took the long route to the flying career, studying (and finishing those studies) as well as working as a flight attendant before doing my integrated ATPL training before turning 30. Now I've gone through some assessment centres just before the whole market more or less imploded and as it turns out, as of last week, I'm officially waitlisted with a Lufthansa Group Airline on a Jet AC. The whole process of sending out roughly 15 applications, getting responses, being invited to A/C etc. took about 4-5 months in total if there was a response at all from the respective airline.

The airline that gave me the green light now has no idea as to when they'll actually hire again but its a pretty decent position to be in. I'll probably go and work in my old line of work for a while while waiting for that gig to materialise eventually.
Thinking of what I'd do if I just came out of school and went into training to incur a debt of about 80.000EUR gives me the shivers... Having some sort of higher education to fall back to gave me some peace of mind at least. Money wise I would probably be worse off going for a pilots job anywhere else as there is absolutely more money in my old field but at the same time I have absolutely no drive to pursue a full time career in it. So leaving for passion is a common thing here...

To anyone still in the assessment grind I can only say: keep it up! Just look ahead and take one step at the time. Unfortunately it's just the way this industry works and times will hopefully get better soon. I'm gonna do some more A/C's as well and try to get something to bridge the gap until the opportunity mentioned above comes up.
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Old 27th Nov 2019, 20:56
  #77 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
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CAA

Re stats

National CAA statistics show issues of ATPL CPL and PPL.

These DATA are shown by year on year.

Not all PPL become CPL requires Exams hours flight test etc..

Not all CPL become ATPL requires Multi-crew IR etc

Possible to work out success/attrition from these DATA
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Old 12th Dec 2019, 20:52
  #78 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2019
Location: Qatar
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I graduated early this year in a flight school overseas and came back to my home country (not my location) to convert my license and got my fATPL with only 260 TT. I applied to a local airline that flies caravans as I am eager to build my way up from there, but never got a reply. I thought of becoming a CFI but I will not be a good instructor. There was one airline recently recruiting low hour pilots, a few friends did not meet some requirements got invited for the tests while I did not (even meeting all requirements) which is weird. Got introduced to 'pay2fly' schemes which a few mates are currently enrolled in but I will never think of joining it. Right now I am just actively looking for pilot jobs, revising my aviation knowledge and watching/reading some tips of airline interview questions. Also looking for aviation related jobs ..
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Old 13th Dec 2019, 18:13
  #79 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
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My situation is less or more the same: just finished, after a modular training that took litteraly my life; at the moment there's no job correlated about what we studied but mainly P2F programme (or strange societies like pilotix that they promise you very big bullshiXX). I suppose the situation now is the worster scenario we can imagine due the lack of companies and assessments available for a low hour pilot; in Europe we are at least 2/3 thousand low hour pilots (minimum) with the requirements to apply for an airline job. I would like to ask to EASA why they permict a continuos issuing of licenses if the question is less than offer.

Last edited by inabw; 13th Dec 2019 at 18:23.
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