BBVA Stop Funding Pilot Loans
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BBVA Stop Funding Pilot Loans
The thread title speaks for itself, they've removed it ... https://www.bbvauk.com/tleu/error404/
Now who'll fund the champagne and cheese parties at CTC towers
Now who'll fund the champagne and cheese parties at CTC towers
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I was speaking to a someone who had completed a cadet programme a couple of years back and they said that other cadets should consider getting their parents to go for a straight remortgage of the house to pay the fees up front, rather than the BBVA scheme, since the latter was often more expensive in terms of interest rates.
How the banks and building societies affected would respond I don't know but I wouldn't be surprised if they cottoned on quickly, especially if the aviation industry suffered a downturn.
How the banks and building societies affected would respond I don't know but I wouldn't be surprised if they cottoned on quickly, especially if the aviation industry suffered a downturn.
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Hi all,
This is more a review of BBVA banks overall position in the UK than simply the pilot training product. BBVA UK, which already had a small footprint in the United Kingdom compared with its home market and other nations on the continent, has decided to close a number of branches and migrate affected customers to their busiest location in Vauxhall, London. This change will have complete by July 2017.
BBVA have claimed this is related to the fact the way banking is carried out in the U.K. is changing to the point where it is no longer feasible to operate. This makes sense given the fact they're relatively small bank compared with the high street names we're used to.
BBVA themselves claim this will "impact assessments for customers across the BBVA branch network in London that have been conducted so far are published on our website and are made available in the affected branches.". Thus from what i've seen/heard this has resulted in a number of 'in-progress' BBVA pilot mortgage applications being closed prior to an offer being made. Now £74k+ in to my pilot training I'm yet to hear anything from the bank as to how this affects those already with such products, but I will inform you all if I do happen to find something out! I'd hope that'll be in the coming weeks.
Whether such pilot loan services will be re-introduced or not remains to be seen, but I imagine the bank is more keen on restructuring in the interim for BBVA were already quite niche in this country.
I found the majority of this information on BBVA's website directly. You can find it at this link and mentioned on their homepage. I hope this helps clear things up.
The above posters are correct that in the majority of cases you can and will find better rates and offerings from high-street mortgage providers at the moment too! Albeit in many cases lacking the 24 month holiday period which made BBVA stand out in that regard.
This is more a review of BBVA banks overall position in the UK than simply the pilot training product. BBVA UK, which already had a small footprint in the United Kingdom compared with its home market and other nations on the continent, has decided to close a number of branches and migrate affected customers to their busiest location in Vauxhall, London. This change will have complete by July 2017.
BBVA have claimed this is related to the fact the way banking is carried out in the U.K. is changing to the point where it is no longer feasible to operate. This makes sense given the fact they're relatively small bank compared with the high street names we're used to.
BBVA themselves claim this will "impact assessments for customers across the BBVA branch network in London that have been conducted so far are published on our website and are made available in the affected branches.". Thus from what i've seen/heard this has resulted in a number of 'in-progress' BBVA pilot mortgage applications being closed prior to an offer being made. Now £74k+ in to my pilot training I'm yet to hear anything from the bank as to how this affects those already with such products, but I will inform you all if I do happen to find something out! I'd hope that'll be in the coming weeks.
Whether such pilot loan services will be re-introduced or not remains to be seen, but I imagine the bank is more keen on restructuring in the interim for BBVA were already quite niche in this country.
I found the majority of this information on BBVA's website directly. You can find it at this link and mentioned on their homepage. I hope this helps clear things up.
The above posters are correct that in the majority of cases you can and will find better rates and offerings from high-street mortgage providers at the moment too! Albeit in many cases lacking the 24 month holiday period which made BBVA stand out in that regard.
Last edited by gbotley; 5th May 2017 at 23:00.
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The thread title speaks for itself, they've removed it ... https://www.bbvauk.com/tleu/error404/
Now who'll fund the champagne and cheese parties at CTC towers
Now who'll fund the champagne and cheese parties at CTC towers
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Also, ATPL finance, who were the only other specialist provider of cadet training loans (albeit solely to CTC students, I believe) have stopped their service:
http://www.atplfinance.co.uk
For my course funding, I tried to deal with BBVA and found them to be incredibly unhelpful and obstructive. I was in the process of arranging for a family member, who is the CEO of a financial institution, to be my guarantor, when he advised me to look elsewhere as he thought the way they were operating was unacceptably vague and almost shady. As other posters have suggested, in my case it was possible to get most of the finance from a traditional mortgage provider, but I know that not every student will be able to do that, particularly if your parents have retired.
I think this is going to cause a problem for the schools - there's a limit to the number of people with £100k+ knocking around, and arranging a loan without BBVA won't work for everyone.
http://www.atplfinance.co.uk
For my course funding, I tried to deal with BBVA and found them to be incredibly unhelpful and obstructive. I was in the process of arranging for a family member, who is the CEO of a financial institution, to be my guarantor, when he advised me to look elsewhere as he thought the way they were operating was unacceptably vague and almost shady. As other posters have suggested, in my case it was possible to get most of the finance from a traditional mortgage provider, but I know that not every student will be able to do that, particularly if your parents have retired.
I think this is going to cause a problem for the schools - there's a limit to the number of people with £100k+ knocking around, and arranging a loan without BBVA won't work for everyone.
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Well I for one think this is the best news since Concorde.
Let's hope gone are the days of the CTC/FTE/OAA mafia. This business needs somewhat of a revolution at its very core.
The EZY MPL course for example a few years back was in the region of 84k, in less than 5 years it has become 100k+. The ATPL route is 126k. Lunacy.
Supply and demand. They will be forced to change if people can no longer borrow 130k. 'They' is both the training schools and airlines collectively.
I make no apologies if I sound controversial, I'm willing to bet that most of any experience will be secretly happy, even ex BBVA customers.
Let's hope gone are the days of the CTC/FTE/OAA mafia. This business needs somewhat of a revolution at its very core.
The EZY MPL course for example a few years back was in the region of 84k, in less than 5 years it has become 100k+. The ATPL route is 126k. Lunacy.
Supply and demand. They will be forced to change if people can no longer borrow 130k. 'They' is both the training schools and airlines collectively.
I make no apologies if I sound controversial, I'm willing to bet that most of any experience will be secretly happy, even ex BBVA customers.
Last edited by Officer Kite; 6th May 2017 at 08:37.
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If BBVA pull out of the pilot loans market altogether it will have a huge effect on both airlines and flight schools (well, the integrated ones anyway). Maybe gbotley can help us out hee, but I guess that >50% of CTC/OAA/FTE etc cadets use BBVA [Edited to update: it appears that the numbers using BBVA are relatively small.] They wouldn't necessarily be able to secure other finance, especially with "extras" such as a 2 year repayment window.
Longer term, I hope a significant drop in cadet applications would force airlines and schools to re-think and maybe reduce prices and/or finance courses themselves. We can but dream.....
To add to the rumour mill, I've heard that CTC are reviewing their offering (people on here and CTC themselves said Performance Protection is 'under review', although still available at present), to be complete in roughly July. I'd thought this was due to them re-branding as L3 but maybe they had fore-warning from BBVA and are already thinking baout what to do?
Longer term, I hope a significant drop in cadet applications would force airlines and schools to re-think and maybe reduce prices and/or finance courses themselves. We can but dream.....
To add to the rumour mill, I've heard that CTC are reviewing their offering (people on here and CTC themselves said Performance Protection is 'under review', although still available at present), to be complete in roughly July. I'd thought this was due to them re-branding as L3 but maybe they had fore-warning from BBVA and are already thinking baout what to do?
Last edited by ManUtd1999; 6th May 2017 at 09:34.
N4790P
Well I for one think this is the best news since Concorde.
Let's hope gone are the days of the CTC/FTE/OAA mafia. This business needs somewhat of a revolution at its very core.
The EZY MPL course for example a few years back was in the region of 84k, in less than 5 years it has become 126k. Lunacy.
Supply and demand. They will be forced to change if people can no longer borrow 130k. 'They' is both the training schools and airlines collectively.
I make no apologies if I sound controversial, I'm willing to bet that most of any experience will be secretly happy, even ex BBVA customers.
Let's hope gone are the days of the CTC/FTE/OAA mafia. This business needs somewhat of a revolution at its very core.
The EZY MPL course for example a few years back was in the region of 84k, in less than 5 years it has become 126k. Lunacy.
Supply and demand. They will be forced to change if people can no longer borrow 130k. 'They' is both the training schools and airlines collectively.
I make no apologies if I sound controversial, I'm willing to bet that most of any experience will be secretly happy, even ex BBVA customers.
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Some very interesting points, however personally I think that the exact opposite outcome might be more likely in the short to medium term, and that costs will rise even higher for student pilots.
Based on the fact that BBVA have quit the market and that no other bank offers a similar product, I think we can safely assume that pilot training loans are not an especially profitable business, relative to other lending markets for the banks.
I think that means that if a new supplier is found, then rates will be higher, pushing the costs up for trainees.
Alternatively, maybe there'll be a continued rise in airlines providing collateral for loans, which has the advantage of no longer putting your house (or your parents house) at risk, but will push-up costs for the airlines. Surely, in cost-sensitive times, this will ultimately be passed-on to trainees in the form of higher fees?
We've already seen a large-scale separation of type rating costs from course costs (I think I'm correct in believing, for example, that the £109k ezy mpl at CAE three years ago included a rating, now this is £30k extra) so I expect that ways will be found to ensure cadets can get finance for the initial course in some way, even if there are then extra costs later on in training.
Based on the fact that BBVA have quit the market and that no other bank offers a similar product, I think we can safely assume that pilot training loans are not an especially profitable business, relative to other lending markets for the banks.
I think that means that if a new supplier is found, then rates will be higher, pushing the costs up for trainees.
Alternatively, maybe there'll be a continued rise in airlines providing collateral for loans, which has the advantage of no longer putting your house (or your parents house) at risk, but will push-up costs for the airlines. Surely, in cost-sensitive times, this will ultimately be passed-on to trainees in the form of higher fees?
We've already seen a large-scale separation of type rating costs from course costs (I think I'm correct in believing, for example, that the £109k ezy mpl at CAE three years ago included a rating, now this is £30k extra) so I expect that ways will be found to ensure cadets can get finance for the initial course in some way, even if there are then extra costs later on in training.
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I'm afraid I do not have the specific data to hand.... only information from those in the courses behind me whom I knew whilst still in ground school and a couple of people I also know out in New Zealand.
Of the majority of that small population, only a handful made use of BBVA. When there are 10-16 Whitetail cadets per group (as ground school classes tend to be larger due to modular and other MPLs etc), the vast majority of them were funded with parent support via other means.
In my case, within my CP I am the only individual whom has used the services of BBVA. There was one other although BBVA wrongly offered funds and then pulled their contract at the last minute. I do know that the majority of individuals wishing to take out the loans is rather high - based on the amount of messages I receive via my blog - and often a BBVA rejection is the end of the road for them. I would even go so far as to say these schools accept a higher percentage of people through selection knowing full well only a certain percentage would source finance ---- that is pure speculation though!
Having been down the route I know full well BBVA can be difficult to work with and thus somewhat understand why many seek funding via other means.
Those with BBVA loans already have yet to hear anything from the bank so I'm not overly sure what's happening here. They could well return with the offering in the future - who knows!
As for the changes at L3, I'm as much in the dark as you lot are in relation to performance protection and other various PPRune rumours i'm afraid.
Of the majority of that small population, only a handful made use of BBVA. When there are 10-16 Whitetail cadets per group (as ground school classes tend to be larger due to modular and other MPLs etc), the vast majority of them were funded with parent support via other means.
In my case, within my CP I am the only individual whom has used the services of BBVA. There was one other although BBVA wrongly offered funds and then pulled their contract at the last minute. I do know that the majority of individuals wishing to take out the loans is rather high - based on the amount of messages I receive via my blog - and often a BBVA rejection is the end of the road for them. I would even go so far as to say these schools accept a higher percentage of people through selection knowing full well only a certain percentage would source finance ---- that is pure speculation though!
Having been down the route I know full well BBVA can be difficult to work with and thus somewhat understand why many seek funding via other means.
Those with BBVA loans already have yet to hear anything from the bank so I'm not overly sure what's happening here. They could well return with the offering in the future - who knows!
As for the changes at L3, I'm as much in the dark as you lot are in relation to performance protection and other various PPRune rumours i'm afraid.
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Of the majority of that small population, only a handful made use of BBVA. When there are 10-16 Whitetail cadets per group (as ground school classes tend to be larger due to modular and other MPLs etc), the vast majority of them were funded with parent support via other means.
Thanks for the info and I hope everything works out ok for you. Your blog is excellent btw, one of the more informative I have seen (a lot of them are great as a "living the dream" diary but give very little information).
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ManUtd1999,
The majority of those I know at CTC do not have £100,000 lying around by any stretch. Sure, there's the odd couple who have parents that own various corporations here and there - and you can tell - but the vast majority have sourced the funds via another banks mortgage product. Thanks for your comments on the blog, great to hear
The majority of those I know at CTC do not have £100,000 lying around by any stretch. Sure, there's the odd couple who have parents that own various corporations here and there - and you can tell - but the vast majority have sourced the funds via another banks mortgage product. Thanks for your comments on the blog, great to hear
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I'd avoid scaremongering at this stage, until receipt of further news.
Thankfully, as already highlighted by George, there are many other routes to receive funding through but they just require more effort and research to arrange.
Although trying to decode BBVA's shady and often incoherent communication is a task in itself! I've had to send back various bits of paperwork before now because the billing addresses and contact details were completely wrong!
If you're worried about this being more than a rumour and are waiting to hear back from BBVA with anything less than the debit card in your hand, I'd advise at least looking at other options with a building society or bank - to ease your mind if nothing else.
I'm waiting to receive the second part of my debit card and have the legal team look over my loan. So if this is more than a website design issue, this will mean I'll have to act darn quickly to get funding before my start date in June too.
If this is true not the end of the road after all. Just a pain. Which is somewhat characteristic of BBVA...
I guess we'll find out for sure on SOP Monday!
Thankfully, as already highlighted by George, there are many other routes to receive funding through but they just require more effort and research to arrange.
Although trying to decode BBVA's shady and often incoherent communication is a task in itself! I've had to send back various bits of paperwork before now because the billing addresses and contact details were completely wrong!
If you're worried about this being more than a rumour and are waiting to hear back from BBVA with anything less than the debit card in your hand, I'd advise at least looking at other options with a building society or bank - to ease your mind if nothing else.
I'm waiting to receive the second part of my debit card and have the legal team look over my loan. So if this is more than a website design issue, this will mean I'll have to act darn quickly to get funding before my start date in June too.
If this is true not the end of the road after all. Just a pain. Which is somewhat characteristic of BBVA...
I guess we'll find out for sure on SOP Monday!
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It will be interesting to see how the training schools and airlines handle this. With specific "pilot training" branded loans being available, I don't think it was necessarily perceived by the general public and parents of potential cadets that the loan was in itself a mortgage, it was simply seen as a secured loan, a bit like a student loan but secured on a house "just in case". That's at least the impression that I got.
Flight training schools and airlines are both very keen on protecting their image and the "pilot training loans" (note "loans", not "mortgages") were clearly part of that image. If it got into the wider public domain and media that the only way to borrow was a straight remortgage, the thin veneer of accessibility that the old branding gave would be gone.
Of course, many students (or their parents) do go for the straight remortgage option but it will be very interesting to see how the PR handles the reality that this may now be the only option for borrowing.
Flight training schools and airlines are both very keen on protecting their image and the "pilot training loans" (note "loans", not "mortgages") were clearly part of that image. If it got into the wider public domain and media that the only way to borrow was a straight remortgage, the thin veneer of accessibility that the old branding gave would be gone.
Of course, many students (or their parents) do go for the straight remortgage option but it will be very interesting to see how the PR handles the reality that this may now be the only option for borrowing.
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There is a reality check needed by some of you. How long is the training for say a vet? 5+ years?. Who funds that? You select your career and there is no one forcing you into it. If you truly believe the likes of OAA and CTC are ripping you off then go somewhere else.
I can assure you that the costs of FSTDs and the SFIs to train you(and these SFIs were you many years ago and now expect to be justifiable rewarded for their time circuit bashing, parcel delivery or whatever) are not insignificant.
Comments such as 50% cost cuts are pipe dreams.
Go and do it your way as no one is forcing you into using any providor.
I can assure you that the costs of FSTDs and the SFIs to train you(and these SFIs were you many years ago and now expect to be justifiable rewarded for their time circuit bashing, parcel delivery or whatever) are not insignificant.
Comments such as 50% cost cuts are pipe dreams.
Go and do it your way as no one is forcing you into using any providor.
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How long is the training for say a vet? 5+ years?. Who funds that?
To access jobs such as vets/doctors/engineers etc in the UK you (probably) have to go to uni, which can indeed cost 10s of thousands. The key difference is that the government recognises that the costs involved are an obstacle for a lot of people and therefore offers a system of loans whereby anyone can afford it. Your parents don't have to re-mortgage their house for you to go to uni.
Maybe the government should do something similar in aviation. In the absence of that I would hope to see airlines step in but I'm not getting my hopes up.
Secondly, in the "real-world" any on the job or job specific training will almost certainly be provided by your employer free of charge. There is no equivalent to paying for type ratings that I know of outside of aviation.
You select your career and there is no one forcing you into it.
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I, like many others on this thread believe that the airlines should make their cadet programmes to applicants from all financial backgrounds. The Aer Lingus programme has been mentioned and from first hand experience I can confirm what as been said about the recruitment process for that programme, it is very thorough and the calibre of the candidates in Dublin was exceptionally high.
Looking at quite a few of the airlines who take cadets from CTC/FTE/OAA, many of these airlines have modular recruitment, which they can step up. Flybe and BACF through Kura, Flybe and Monarch through Wings Alliance and Thomas Cook via IAGO.
Easyjet will no doubt be the biggie and it will be interesting how the upcoming TV series on their recruitment and training process addresses the matter of cost, particularly if at the time of airing applicants do have to go for a straight remortgage. I can see it generating a lot of interest in pilot recruitment amongst the general population and if the training isn't seen to be affordable for all it might not go down too well with the viewing public.
Looking at quite a few of the airlines who take cadets from CTC/FTE/OAA, many of these airlines have modular recruitment, which they can step up. Flybe and BACF through Kura, Flybe and Monarch through Wings Alliance and Thomas Cook via IAGO.
Easyjet will no doubt be the biggie and it will be interesting how the upcoming TV series on their recruitment and training process addresses the matter of cost, particularly if at the time of airing applicants do have to go for a straight remortgage. I can see it generating a lot of interest in pilot recruitment amongst the general population and if the training isn't seen to be affordable for all it might not go down too well with the viewing public.
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And did any of you consider WORKING? That´s what a bunch of us did to pay our training, and save the money beforhand (and in many fields non related to aviation)... or is to thaugh for you? ...
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I'm not quite sure what 'thaugh for you means' and I'm also not sure why you'd assume that those who are posting in this thread haven't 'considered WORKING?' What a strange, misguided and patronising comment.
I worked extremely hard for 11 years in unrelated fields before starting my training. By that stage most of my savings were invested in my house, hence having to extend my mortgage.
Every other person that I know at my school has worked to save as much as they can before training, in a huge variety of jobs.
You'll be aware that the recession, the rise of zero hours contracts, and higher rents than ever before have made it particularly difficult for young people to save considerable amounts over the last few years.
I would argue that in 2017 it would be almost impossible to save £100k+ in an average job before the age of 30, unless you have the luxury of living with family.
Today, some additional form of finance is definitely needed by the majority of trainee pilots who have worked hard to save money.
I worked extremely hard for 11 years in unrelated fields before starting my training. By that stage most of my savings were invested in my house, hence having to extend my mortgage.
Every other person that I know at my school has worked to save as much as they can before training, in a huge variety of jobs.
You'll be aware that the recession, the rise of zero hours contracts, and higher rents than ever before have made it particularly difficult for young people to save considerable amounts over the last few years.
I would argue that in 2017 it would be almost impossible to save £100k+ in an average job before the age of 30, unless you have the luxury of living with family.
Today, some additional form of finance is definitely needed by the majority of trainee pilots who have worked hard to save money.